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#102 Aug 01 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Default
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Kastigir wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control.

False.

The cruise control deactivation is tied into the brake switch. If you push the pedal hard enough for the brake lights to come on, then the cruise is deactivated as well.


You've tested this? I'm not discounting that this may be true on *some* cars. But while I'd assume the brake lights are tied to the switch itself (for safety reasons), I'd expect the cruise control logic is more computer controlled and may have additional requirements (pedal pressed farther in, for longer, etc). You can accidentally bump the pedal and your brake lights will flash on. I don't think that will deactivate the cruise control though. At least not on newer cars.

I'll test this when I get a chance.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:11pm by gbaji
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#103 Aug 01 2012 at 5:17 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Interesting how simply changing which words are bolded suddenly makes this a complete endorsement of my position that we should teach drivers to drive this way from the start and save lives. Hmmmm...

My reading of it is that drivers taught that way from the start aren't statistically different from single foot drivers in their pedal misapplication accident rate, not that they're immune to it.


Except that the "DRSs" referenced in the document are "Driving Rehabilitation Specialists". So this is separate from the general issue of pedal misapplication. It's a subset of data gathered from a group of people who train people to drive under various handicaps (and assess whether they can drive at all). So what they're saying is that people who had driven with two feet for a long time had no problems making adjustments as they got older, suffered an injury, etc, while those who'd always driven with just the right foot, upon trying to drive with two feet (presumably because the DRSs were teaching them to do so as a means of alleviating some problem they had), had a hard time adjusting.


Like I said. Just more evidence that two foot driving is better. These people were not encountering random people driving with two feet, but people who, because of physical problems, were trying to shift to driving with two feet and found the process more difficult. Had those people been taught to drive with both feet from day one, they could have handled their rehabilitation better.
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#104 Aug 01 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Video games controllers are a terrible example for your side. Every controller out there is designed so that one hand controls most of the buttons as the other hand is supposed to control the movement, which is a completely different action. Joysticks are of course an exception as you predominantly control everything with one hand.
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#105 Aug 01 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You've tested this? I'm not discounting that this may be true on *some* cars. But while I'd assume the brake lights are tied to the switch itself (for safety reasons), I'd expect the cruise control logic is more computer controlled and may have additional requirements (pedal pressed farther in, for longer, etc). You can accidentally bump the pedal and your brake lights will flash on. I don't think that will deactivate the cruise control though. At least not on newer cars.

I'll test this when I get a chance.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:11pm by gbaji
I'm pretty sure I can tap my brakes enough to get the lights on and not deactivate the cruise control. But, seeing as I'm driving and can't see my brake lights, I could be wrong.
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#106 Aug 01 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Except that the "DRSs" referenced in the document are "Driving Rehabilitation Specialists". So this is separate from the general issue of pedal misapplication. It's a subset of data gathered from a group of people who train people to drive under various handicaps (and assess whether they can drive at all). So what they're saying is that people who had driven with two feet for a long time had no problems making adjustments as they got older, suffered an injury, etc, while those who'd always driven with just the right foot, upon trying to drive with two feet (presumably because the DRSs were teaching them to do so as a means of alleviating some problem they had), had a hard time adjusting.

None of which means that "native" two-footed drivers had lower pedal related mishaps than the average, just that they don't have more like later learning two-footed drivers did.

Quote:
Like I said. Just more evidence that two foot driving is better.

If you consider making things up to be evidence.
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#107 Aug 01 2012 at 6:48 PM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Video games controllers are a terrible example for your side. Every controller out there is designed so that one hand controls most of the buttons as the other hand is supposed to control the movement, which is a completely different action. Joysticks are of course an exception as you predominantly control everything with one hand.


Um... I'm talking about two buttons and which method would allow you better control of them. Don't get caught up on what we're controlling or why. We are talking about a situation in which you have just two pedals and all you do is push them. No joysticks involved.


That was also the second example I gave, just in case the first one didn't drive home the point. Do you agree that if you were standing in front of a panel with two buttons on it, and were required to push one or the other button as quickly as possible in response to some external indicator, you'd do vastly better if you placed one hand over each button and pushed as needed than if you used just one hand and went back and forth? And while I suppose we could speculate about the two handed person mixing up his right and left, or getting the buttons confused, no sane person would think that would cause him to do worse than the guy using one hand for both buttons.

Why are pedals on your car any different?

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 5:49pm by gbaji
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#108 Aug 01 2012 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Do you agree that if you were standing in front of a panel with two buttons on it, and were required to push one or the other button as quickly as possible in response to some external indicator, you'd do vastly better if you placed one hand over each button and pushed as needed than if you used just one hand and went back and forth?
You sound like you're really horrible when it comes to arcade games.
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#109 Aug 01 2012 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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You sound like you're really horrible when it comes to arcade games.

He's mentioned before that he gave up video games in a huff some ten years ago because they had too much plot so, yeah. He probably is horrible at them.
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#110 Aug 01 2012 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Video games controllers are a terrible example for your side. Every controller out there is designed so that one hand controls most of the buttons as the other hand is supposed to control the movement, which is a completely different action. Joysticks are of course an exception as you predominantly control everything with one hand.


Um... I'm talking about two buttons and which method would allow you better control of them. Don't get caught up on what we're controlling or why. We are talking about a situation in which you have just two pedals and all you do is push them. No joysticks involved.


That was also the second example I gave, just in case the first one didn't drive home the point. Do you agree that if you were standing in front of a panel with two buttons on it, and were required to push one or the other button as quickly as possible in response to some external indicator, you'd do vastly better if you placed one hand over each button and pushed as needed than if you used just one hand and went back and forth? And while I suppose we could speculate about the two handed person mixing up his right and left, or getting the buttons confused, no sane person would think that would cause him to do worse than the guy using one hand for both buttons.

Why are pedals on your car any different?

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 5:49pm by gbaji


We're talking about driving here, not DiveKick.
#111 Aug 01 2012 at 7:36 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that the "DRSs" referenced in the document are "Driving Rehabilitation Specialists". So this is separate from the general issue of pedal misapplication. It's a subset of data gathered from a group of people who train people to drive under various handicaps (and assess whether they can drive at all). So what they're saying is that people who had driven with two feet for a long time had no problems making adjustments as they got older, suffered an injury, etc, while those who'd always driven with just the right foot, upon trying to drive with two feet (presumably because the DRSs were teaching them to do so as a means of alleviating some problem they had), had a hard time adjusting.

None of which means that "native" two-footed drivers had lower pedal related mishaps than the average, just that they don't have more like later learning two-footed drivers did.


While technically correct, that's a meaningless point to make. They aren't comparing two footed drivers to the "average" at all. So... um... grats on posting random gibberish I guess?


The quote tells us nothing about whether people who drive with two feet are any more or less prone to pedal misapplication than those who drive with one foot. It's not evidence of either position. What it does say is that among the set of drivers being handled by these rehabilitation specialists, those who drove with two feet all their lives did not develop dangerous habits as they got older (arising from the use of two feet of course!). But those who, for a variety of reasons, attempted to switch to driving with two feet were dangerous doing so and had to be trained to avoid driving dangerously. I'll note that no where does it say that merely driving two footed is dangerous, despite this being the perfect place for a group of people specializing in teaching people to overcome their driving difficulties to have mentioned it. Strange, isn't it?

Quote:
Quote:
Like I said. Just more evidence that two foot driving is better.

If you consider making things up to be evidence.


Um... no statement learning to drive two footed at an early age is dangerous or bad. A case brought up where doing so is good and prevents dangerous driving. Yup. No evidence at all!


Of course, then there's this guy.

If only he'd thought to use that perfectly good left foot of his instead of continuing to use his tangled right foot, that motorcyclist would be alive.


Then... There's this guy.

Once again. Someone who could have avoided an accident if only he wasn't utterly dependent on using a single foot for operation of his pedals. Shocking!


I could link all the accidents where the cause was determined to be someone hitting the gas instead of the brake, but it'd take me a week just to link a small percentage of them. It happens far more often than most people think. And pretty much all of them could be avoided if people used both feet on the pedals of an automatic. As I've explained earlier, it's very close to impossible to accidentally press the gas with your left foot, and any expert will tell you that no street car has sufficient power to overcome the brakes if both pedals are applied. Add to this the overwhelming frequency with which the driver insists that they were pressing the brake the whole time, despite witnesses insisting the engine was roaring and a complete lack of skid marks, and it's reasonably safe to say that the massive overwhelming majority of those uncontrolled acceleration cases are caused by people who control both pedals with one foot and accidentally push the wrong pedal.


Still not sure why some people can't accept this. As I said earlier in the thread, it's interesting how blindly people believe what they were told at some point instead of the overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. Those people *had* to be using their right foot and thinking they were braking. There's no other explanation.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 6:42pm by gbaji
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#112 Aug 01 2012 at 7:39 PM Rating: Default
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Siesen wrote:
gbaji wrote:

That was also the second example I gave, just in case the first one didn't drive home the point. Do you agree that if you were standing in front of a panel with two buttons on it, and were required to push one or the other button as quickly as possible in response to some external indicator, you'd do vastly better if you placed one hand over each button and pushed as needed than if you used just one hand and went back and forth? And while I suppose we could speculate about the two handed person mixing up his right and left, or getting the buttons confused, no sane person would think that would cause him to do worse than the guy using one hand for both buttons.

Why are pedals on your car any different?

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 5:49pm by gbaji


We're talking about driving here, not DiveKick.


And? We're talking about whether it's easier and/or less error prone to control two pedals by operating one with each foot, or by operating both with the same foot. What we're doing with those pedals isn't that relevant. Certainly saying "it's not the same because one involves driving" is a pretty silly thing to say without some kind of explanation as to why driving makes a difference to the point I was making.

Does it? I don't see how, but you're welcome to try to come up with a reason.
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#113 Aug 01 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
ITT: Gbaji thinks hands are the same as feet.
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#114 Aug 01 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
None of which means that "native" two-footed drivers had lower pedal related mishaps than the average, just that they don't have more like later learning two-footed drivers did.
While technically correct, that's a meaningless point to make.

Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh

Go back to arguing about long rifles.
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#115 Aug 01 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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So, gbaji makes stupid statement, then goes to the ends of the earth to avoid having to recant it in the face of logic and evidence?

Quote:
Something completely different


...this thread has failed to deliver on its premise.
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#116 Aug 01 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Quote:
Something completely different
...this thread has failed to deliver on its premise.
Well, it was destined to go in one direction and no matter which direction it went gbaji was going to argue against it.
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#117 Aug 01 2012 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Video games controllers are a terrible example for your side. Every controller out there is designed so that one hand controls most of the buttons as the other hand is supposed to control the movement, which is a completely different action. Joysticks are of course an exception as you predominantly control everything with one hand.


Um... I'm talking about two buttons and which method would allow you better control of them. Don't get caught up on what we're controlling or why. We are talking about a situation in which you have just two pedals and all you do is push them. No joysticks involved.


That was also the second example I gave, just in case the first one didn't drive home the point. Do you agree that if you were standing in front of a panel with two buttons on it, and were required to push one or the other button as quickly as possible in response to some external indicator, you'd do vastly better if you placed one hand over each button and pushed as needed than if you used just one hand and went back and forth? And while I suppose we could speculate about the two handed person mixing up his right and left, or getting the buttons confused, no sane person would think that would cause him to do worse than the guy using one hand for both buttons.

Why are pedals on your car any different?

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 5:49pm by gbaji
I never disputed your 2nd example. I only pointed out that your video game controller example didn't support your stance.
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#118 Aug 01 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Kastigir wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control.

False.

The cruise control deactivation is tied into the brake switch. If you push the pedal hard enough for the brake lights to come on, then the cruise is deactivated as well.


You've tested this? I'm not discounting that this may be true on *some* cars. But while I'd assume the brake lights are tied to the switch itself (for safety reasons), I'd expect the cruise control logic is more computer controlled and may have additional requirements (pedal pressed farther in, for longer, etc). You can accidentally bump the pedal and your brake lights will flash on. I don't think that will deactivate the cruise control though. At least not on newer cars.

I'll test this when I get a chance.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:11pm by gbaji

If I even tap my break pedal with the cruise control on, the CC shuts off. This is on an 04 Grand Prix. Not a new car, but not an old clunker, either.
#119 Aug 01 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Kastigir wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control.

False.

The cruise control deactivation is tied into the brake switch. If you push the pedal hard enough for the brake lights to come on, then the cruise is deactivated as well.


You've tested this? I'm not discounting that this may be true on *some* cars. But while I'd assume the brake lights are tied to the switch itself (for safety reasons), I'd expect the cruise control logic is more computer controlled and may have additional requirements (pedal pressed farther in, for longer, etc). You can accidentally bump the pedal and your brake lights will flash on. I don't think that will deactivate the cruise control though. At least not on newer cars.

I'll test this when I get a chance.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:11pm by gbaji

If I even tap my break pedal with the cruise control on, the CC shuts off. This is on an 04 Grand Prix. Not a new car, but not an old clunker, either.


Same with my '05 Chrysler Town and Country. I even tested it out on the way home from work today, if I push on the brake enough to make the pedal move, the cruise is disabled until I press the Resume/Accel button. Same on the Ford Taurus sitting in my drive (I forget what year that one is). Gbaji's just spouting more "obvious facts" to try and support his point of view.

For safety purposes, I would imagine that the disabling of cruise control would be priority as soon as braking was detected. Unless of course you are driving a Toyota.
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#120 Aug 01 2012 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
These are some long **** posts about braking.Smiley: oyvey
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#121 Aug 02 2012 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
These are some long **** posts about braking.Smiley: oyvey

Braking up is hard to do, yo.
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#122 Aug 02 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Kastigir wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I don't. Read what I said. And the issue with people's brake lights being on is because the lights tend to be more sensitive than the brakes themselves. It's quite possible to trigger the brake lights on many (most? maybe even all?) cars without pushing the brake pedal hard enough to deactivate the cruise control.

False.

The cruise control deactivation is tied into the brake switch. If you push the pedal hard enough for the brake lights to come on, then the cruise is deactivated as well.


You've tested this? I'm not discounting that this may be true on *some* cars. But while I'd assume the brake lights are tied to the switch itself (for safety reasons), I'd expect the cruise control logic is more computer controlled and may have additional requirements (pedal pressed farther in, for longer, etc). You can accidentally bump the pedal and your brake lights will flash on. I don't think that will deactivate the cruise control though. At least not on newer cars.

I'll test this when I get a chance.

Edited, Aug 1st 2012 4:11pm by gbaji

If I even tap my break pedal with the cruise control on, the CC shuts off. This is on an 04 Grand Prix. Not a new car, but not an old clunker, either.


Same with my '05 Chrysler Town and Country. I even tested it out on the way home from work today, if I push on the brake enough to make the pedal move, the cruise is disabled until I press the Resume/Accel button. Same on the Ford Taurus sitting in my drive (I forget what year that one is). Gbaji's just spouting more "obvious facts" to try and support his point of view.

For safety purposes, I would imagine that the disabling of cruise control would be priority as soon as braking was detected. Unless of course you are driving a Toyota.

Recently my brake light switch failed. With it my cruise control deactivation, and my ability to remove my car from "P" unless I pushed down the little button. All 3 systems were restored with the replacement of the brake light switch.
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#123 Aug 02 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, it's fairly obvious that the "brakes pressed" switch controls them all. Seems the most efficient way to control numerous things queued off the same action, just use the same switch.

I'm a controls engineer (in the automotive industry, no less) and it's the way I would do it. If I were designing something where real estate was at a premium and I had to spend as little as possible, adding a second switch to do something that an existing switch already did would not be in my handbook.
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#124 Aug 02 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I am astounded that you people have let this inane argument go on for 120+ posts. Don't you have some Republican pundit or politician you can make fun of?
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#125 Aug 02 2012 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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I am astounded that you people have let this inane argument go on for 120+ posts. Don't you have some Republican pundit or politician you can make fun of?


That's too easy.
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#126 Aug 02 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Don't you have some Republican pundit or politician you can make fun of?

Romney gets all petulant on Sean Hannity's show, saying Reid better "put up or shut up" about Romney's taxes (while still refusing to release them)
Romney's spokesperson is taking "time off" after yelling at reporters in Poland
Romney's tax plan is found to raise taxes on the middle class. Romney pouts and now calls the study "liberal" despite calling the same study group "objective" when they scored Gov. Perry's plan.
Global warming denying scientist funded by Koch brothers says he's had a "total turnaround" now admits he was wrong and ACC is real and being caused by human activity
Pew releases poll showing Obama up by ten points nationally. Which seems rather high and should be averaged with other polls but the trend has been an Obama lead since last October.
Republican country supervisor candidate has apparently been casting absentee ballots for his dead "life companion" for the past five years. Good thing they're trying to stop "fraud" by keeping blacks away from the polls!
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Two GOP House reps have announced their immediate retirement in the past week
Tennessee state rep claims that Obama will fake an assassination attempt on himself and impose martial law and cancel the elections this November.
Bush and Cheney "decided" not to attend the GOP convention this month.

Any of those work for you?


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#127 Aug 02 2012 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Yes, it's fairly obvious that the "brakes pressed" switch controls them all. Seems the most efficient way to control numerous things queued off the same action, just use the same switch.

I'm a controls engineer (in the automotive industry, no less) and it's the way I would do it. If I were designing something where real estate was at a premium and I had to spend as little as possible, adding a second switch to do something that an existing switch already did would not be in my handbook.

Meh, you think *that* qualifies you as knowledgeable in this discussion?
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#128 Aug 02 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Only the absence of knowledge qualifies you to speak about a subject. Smiley: schooled
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#129 Aug 02 2012 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Still not sure why some people can't accept this. As I said earlier in the thread, it's interesting how blindly people believe what they were told at some point instead of the overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. Those people *had* to be using their right foot and thinking they were braking. There's no other explanation.

That being the case, they must be mouth-breathing imbeciles and completely unsuitable for driving, as ninety percent of people holding licenses are. The only suitable excuse is if they were eighty years old and senile, in which case they shouldn't be driving anyways.
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#130 Aug 02 2012 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Go find a console game that uses two buttons on the controller. Practice using one thumb to control both buttons. Then practice using a different thumb for each. Which one will give you better results? I could probably sit here and give you a dozen different examples in which we all know that we will react faster and more accurately if we use two different hands, feet, thumbs, etc to control two different objects than if we use just one for both. Why assume this is different when it comes to the pedals in a car?

I've played ssbm competitively before. Using my thumb for both a and b gives me very favorable results. Using two fingers for both buttons would give me worse performance since it's a slightly awkward way to hold the controller. Take from this what you will, comparing driving to games on controllers isn't really something I'd do.

Quote:
I don't disregard either of them. I'm stating as plainly and clearly as possible that one of those things happens far more often than the other. There are hundreds of documented cases of right foot only drivers accidentally hitting the gas instead of the brake and causing an accident. How many documented cases of accidents can you find that are directly attributed to someone driving with two feet instead of one? Not someone speculating about what might happen, but accidents that actually did happen. Can you find any?

Now factor in how many people drive with both feet, since it's obvious you haven't been doing that. Also it's interesting that you say you didn't disregard the situations, because you apparently ignored them so hard you misinterpreted one of them into something else:

Quote:
Sigh? Sit in your car. Plant your right heel in front of the gas pedal (like you'd normally place it). Now, lift your toes up so you are not pressing on the pedal. Now. Take your left foot and try to press the gas pedal. You can't do it. Your right foot is in the way. You'd have to literally put your left foot on top of your right foot and push it down in order to do what you're claiming could happen. It would take a **** of a miss to do that. Meanwhile, the guy operating with just his right foot just has to miss to the right a couple of inches and he can hit the gas instead of the brake (depending on how far to the left he normally positions his foot on the brake pedal of course). There's nothing in the way (other than the pedal) to tell him he's missed. He doesn't literally have to shove one leg into the other to do this. He just has to miss the pedal. Worse, since he's used to having his foot push on a pedal in that position, it's not as absolutely unfamiliar and wont have a blaring "WTF is going on" sensation associated with it. He's just pressing down on a pedal in a position his foot is used to being. The left foot driver *never* has his foot that far over. Even if he could do it, it would feel absolutely wrong.

Dear god, not only did you completely misread the example but you typed a wall of text about it. I guess I need to give you the play by play and spell it out for you. Driving in car. OH GOD PANIC SITUATION! Slam down both feet. Left foot misses break, right foot hits gas pedal. Don't try to cop out and say this can't ever happen or won't happen. You've been citing incredibly unlikely scenarios the entire thread.

Quote:
Not even close to as dangerous though. Assuming the odds of missing the brake are the same, one is much much worse than the other.

Do you even drive a car? When I'm commuting to school I'm going no slower than 60 on the LIE. If something happens and I need to brake suddenly there's very little difference between me hitting the gas for 2 seconds and me missing the brake for 2 seconds. Did you ignore this situation so hard you forgot it exists as well? I guess if you factor in that it's usually people who shouldn't be driving anymore that press the wrong pedal they would indeed be less likely to be driving fast.

Quote:
Um... No. It's not. Why would you think that? It's not like the brake pedal itself is curved in a special way, or angled in a way that makes it easier to use with either foot. It's typically a wide flatish pedal. Either foot can hit it just fine. While I'll agree that some newer cars have shifted the position closer to the gas pedal, I absolutely don't agree that this is a better configuration much less safer.

Because you have to shift your left leg and foot more to the right than its natural resting position.

Quote:
The brake pedal certainly isn't "designed" to be used by the right foot though. Where did you get that idea?

Where did you get the idea that the brake pedal isn't designed to be used by the right foot? My statement falls perfectly in line with automatic cars not being designed separately from manual cars, where your left foot would only be using the clutch.

Quote:
This means that he must make a choice between one or the other, increasing the odds that his foot will be out of position to brake quickly if something unexpected happens. Meanwhile, the guy using his left foot can control the gas with his right, and when the situation calls for it, cover the brake with his left (move his foot over to the pedal, planting heel to floor in front of it, toe pointed upwards and ready to press it as needed). I do this when passing a group of slower moving cars on the freeway and when driving in parking lots. What this means is that the left foot guy can be "ready" in case something happens, without having to commit himself to a change in speed beforehand. It's much greater control of the car, and it's much safer. Depending on who you talk to, this can shave 2/10ths to 1/2 of a second off the total reaction time. Um... It also means that your foot is already in position to brake and thus there is absolutely zero chance of missing the pedal, foot slipping off, etc.

So your argument is that left foot brakers can be prepared whereas bad regular drivers who choose not to put their foot over the brake or get ready to brake can't. Guess you're pretty screwed when you factor in competent drivers like myself who choose safety over getting somewhere 2 seconds faster and get ready to press the brake when I'm in a parking lot of near suspicious cars.

Now comes the part where you try to safe face by saying your way is more advantageous for those unexpected unforeseen panic situations. I'll just head you off at the pass. You said that when the situation calls for it the left foot brakers can "(move his foot over to the pedal, planting heel to floor in front of it, toe pointed upwards and ready to press it as needed). I do this..." This means that in an unexpected situation you would need to move your left foot to the brake, just like I would need to move my right foot to the brake.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2012 10:36pm by Deadgye
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#131 Aug 02 2012 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Interesting how simply changing which words are bolded suddenly makes this a complete endorsement of my position that we should teach drivers to drive this way from the start and save lives. Hmmmm...

My reading of it is that drivers taught that way from the start aren't statistically different from single foot drivers in their pedal misapplication accident rate, not that they're immune to it.


Except that the "DRSs" referenced in the document are "Driving Rehabilitation Specialists". So this is separate from the general issue of pedal misapplication. It's a subset of data gathered from a group of people who train people to drive under various handicaps (and assess whether they can drive at all). So what they're saying is that people who had driven with two feet for a long time had no problems making adjustments as they got older, suffered an injury, etc, while those who'd always driven with just the right foot, upon trying to drive with two feet (presumably because the DRSs were teaching them to do so as a means of alleviating some problem they had), had a hard time adjusting.


Like I said. Just more evidence that two foot driving is better. These people were not encountering random people driving with two feet, but people who, because of physical problems, were trying to shift to driving with two feet and found the process more difficult. Had those people been taught to drive with both feet from day one, they could have handled their rehabilitation better.


And if you ever want to/need to drive a manual car the left foot braker is screwed whereas the normal person is in a much better position.
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#132 Aug 02 2012 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Of course, then there's this guy.

If only he'd thought to use that perfectly good left foot of his instead of continuing to use his tangled right foot, that motorcyclist would be alive.


Third gear at 22mph, van? If he had been a left foot driver he probably wouldn't even been able to drive since it's highly likely he was driving a manual.
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#133 Aug 02 2012 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tennessee state rep claims that Obama will fake an assassination attempt on himself and impose martial law and cancel the elections this November.

Ha! Hadn't heard that one. That's great!
#134 Aug 03 2012 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
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Tennessee state rep claims that Obama will fake an assassination attempt on himself and impose martial law and cancel the elections this November.

Ha! Hadn't heard that one. That's great!


I hadn't heard that particular flavor of the conspiracy theory, but I had heard that, generally, Obama was going to do something to cancel the elections and basically install himself as a dictator.

I don't give those kinds of rumblings any more credence than I do anything I hear from the mainstream media.
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#135 Aug 03 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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People said the same things about Bush; that he'd find a reason to cancel the elections and declare himself president for life or somesuch. It's as though people have no idea how our government works. Which makes it sadder when it's someone actively IN government (albeit state government) is making the claim. Is it because he's actually so ignorant as to believe the Executive branch can do this or is he intentionally lying to deceive his supporters into believing this?
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#136 Aug 03 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Is it because he's actually so ignorant as to believe the Executive branch can do this or is he intentionally lying to deceive his supporters into believing this?


I'd argue he has a really good idea of how our government works, and is saying those things because he thinks it will help him get more votes.
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#137 Aug 03 2012 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:


I don't give those kinds of rumblings any more credence than I do anything I hear from the mainstream media.
What media sources do you lend credence to?
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#138 Aug 03 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Is it because he's actually so ignorant as to believe the Executive branch can do this or is he intentionally lying to deceive his supporters into believing this?
I'd argue he has a really good idea of how our government works, and is saying those things because he thinks it will help him get more votes.

That would have been Option B.
Elinda wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I don't give those kinds of rumblings any more credence than I do anything I hear from the mainstream media.
What media sources do you lend credence to?

CNS News, World Net Daily, FreeRepublic.com, Canada Free Press...

I hope I'm kidding?

Edited, Aug 3rd 2012 10:52am by Jophiel
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#139 Aug 03 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:


I don't give those kinds of rumblings any more credence than I do anything I hear from the mainstream media.
What media sources do you lend credence to?


He doesn't get his news from anywhere, Elinda.
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#140 Aug 03 2012 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Is it because he's actually so ignorant as to believe the Executive branch can do this or is he intentionally lying to deceive his supporters into believing this?
I'd argue he has a really good idea of how our government works, and is saying those things because he thinks it will help him get more votes.

That would have been Option B.


Pfft, whatever. Smiley: oyvey
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#141 Aug 03 2012 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Is it because he's actually so ignorant as to believe the Executive branch can do this or is he intentionally lying to deceive his supporters into believing this?
I'd argue he has a really good idea of how our government works, and is saying those things because he thinks it will help him get more votes.

That would have been Option B.
Elinda wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I don't give those kinds of rumblings any more credence than I do anything I hear from the mainstream media.
What media sources do you lend credence to?

CNS News, World Net Daily, FreeRepublic.com, Canada Free Press...

I hope I'm kidding?

Edited, Aug 3rd 2012 10:52am by Jophiel

I think it was Canada Free Press that broke the story about Dictator Obama, so, at least that one is out.
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#142 Aug 03 2012 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
CNS News, World Net Daily, FreeRepublic.com, Canada Free Press...

I hope I'm kidding?


I've only heard of one of those (Canada Free Press) and only as a joke publication.

I get my news from the mainstream media, I just don't get my political coverage from them. I guess saying I don't put any credence in anything they say was a bit hyperbolic of me.
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#143 Aug 09 2012 at 6:55 PM Rating: Default
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Bored whilst waiting for time for an OS upgrade, so why not (yes, that's rhetorical)?

Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
How many documented cases of accidents can you find that are directly attributed to someone driving with two feet instead of one? Not someone speculating about what might happen, but accidents that actually did happen. Can you find any?

Now factor in how many people drive with both feet, since it's obvious you haven't been doing that.


Ok. From most estimates I've run into, it's about 8-10% of the automatic driving public. My question is not ignoring that. I'm asking you for *any* accounts where an accident can be directly tied to the fact that someone was driving an automatic with two feet. I think that's a legitimate question given how completely most people assume that doing so is inherently dangerous. We'd expect to find a higher rate of accidents among that group, yet so far no one's produced evidence of any at all, much less evidence that the ratio of pedal misapplication accidents in automatic vehicles by two foot drivers is higher than that by one foot drivers.

Quote:
Dear god, not only did you completely misread the example but you typed a wall of text about it. I guess I need to give you the play by play and spell it out for you. Driving in car. OH GOD PANIC SITUATION! Slam down both feet. Left foot misses break, right foot hits gas pedal. Don't try to cop out and say this can't ever happen or won't happen. You've been citing incredibly unlikely scenarios the entire thread.


Except I already covered this:

Quote:
Quote:
The left foot guy, at worst will miss the brake (but not hit the gas), or press both pedals. Both of which have far less dangerous results than what can (and does every year) happen to the right foot only driver.

I love how you imagine all these wonderful unlikely ways that a normal driver could mess up and accelerate when they mean to break, and then you blatantly disregard the unlikely situations that could occur for left foot brakers. Why can't the left foot braker miss the brake and also hit the accelerator?


Do you see why I interpreted your question to mean missing the brake and hitting the accelerator with the same foot? I mean, I suppose you can claim you meant miss the brake with one foot and then hit the accelerator with the other foot, but that's a bit of a stretch. At the very least, you could have been a **** of a lot more clear. Doubly so since the scenario you were responding to was someone having their right foot slip off the brake and onto the gas. Sure seemed like you were claiming that the same thing could happen while using the left foot.

In any case, I'm not disregarding your arguments. I'm dismissing them as insignificant relatively speaking. You assume that a two foot braker would push down with both feet when braking. Why? You assume that in addition to doing this (for no apparent reason at all), he could then miss with one foot and hit with the other in exactly the wrong combination to result in runaway acceleration. While I'll grant the incredibly unlikely possibility of this happening, that probability is vastly less likely than the much more simple scenario in which one foot slips off the intended pedal and on to the other.

You do understand the difference between something being impossible and something being less likely than something else. In the context of the question "which is safer" that's a very relevant point to make. I still maintain that driving an automatic with two feet is safer than driving it with one and so far no one has presented any valid argument to refute it.

Quote:
Quote:
Not even close to as dangerous though. Assuming the odds of missing the brake are the same, one is much much worse than the other.

Do you even drive a car? When I'm commuting to school I'm going no slower than 60 on the LIE. If something happens and I need to brake suddenly there's very little difference between me hitting the gas for 2 seconds and me missing the brake for 2 seconds.


Huh? But everything else being equal, one is less likely to happen and less likely to result in an accident. You keep contriving situations in which it wont matter, while ignoring all the cases where it will. If it wont make a difference, then driving with just the right foot isn't any better, right? But in the cases where that 2/10ths of a second reaction time difference matters, the left footed braker will have an advantage. And in the cases, where covering ahead of time makes a difference the left footed braker has an advantage. There is no case I can think off where driving with just one foot makes it easier or safer when reacting to an emergency. Can you?

Quote:
Did you ignore this situation so hard you forgot it exists as well? I guess if you factor in that it's usually people who shouldn't be driving anymore that press the wrong pedal they would indeed be less likely to be driving fast.


You're introducing irrelevant conditions though. Those people are dangerous regardless of which foot combination they use. Assume two people with identical driving skills, reaction time, etc. One drives with both feet. One drives using just one. Everything else being equal, the guy using both feet will be better able to respond to random events on the road.

Quote:
Because you have to shift your left leg and foot more to the right than its natural resting position.


That's circular though. And not true in most cars.

Quote:
Quote:
The brake pedal certainly isn't "designed" to be used by the right foot though. Where did you get that idea?

Where did you get the idea that the brake pedal isn't designed to be used by the right foot? My statement falls perfectly in line with automatic cars not being designed separately from manual cars, where your left foot would only be using the clutch.


The brake is in the middle precisely so you can use either foot to operate it. You are aware that people use their left feet to brake when driving manuals as well. The only time you actually *need* to use your right foot to brake in a manual is when coming to a full stop. Many people (myself included) learned to drive on an automatic, and learned to use right and left feet on gas and brake when at speed on the highway, right and left feet on gas and clutch when shifting, and right and left feet on brake and clutch when coming to a complete stop. You'd be surprised how natural that is and how much better you can control the car when you do it that way. This bizarre idea that the left foot is only to be used for the clutch, while the right foot manages two pedals all by itself all the time is strange as hell.

Quote:
So your argument is that left foot brakers can be prepared whereas bad regular drivers who choose not to put their foot over the brake or get ready to brake can't. Guess you're pretty screwed when you factor in competent drivers like myself who choose safety over getting somewhere 2 seconds faster and get ready to press the brake when I'm in a parking lot of near suspicious cars.


Didn't read what I wrote, did you? I said that you *can't* cover the brake with your right foot while still maintaining speed control of the car. How do you manage to pass a group of slower moving cars on the freeway? If you move your foot off the gas, you'll slow down and wont pass them. If you don't, then you can't cover the brake. There are lots of situations where a person driving with just one foot must essentially pick an option and hope he's right. The two foot driver and hold his left foot over the brake while maintaining complete control over the speed of the car. He can speed up to get into an open spot, let off the gas completely, or anything in between, all while covering the brake just in case something unexpected happens.

The right foot only driver simply cannot do this. To cover the brake he *must* relinquish any control over the speed of the car. He can only slow down.

Quote:
Now comes the part where you try to safe face by saying your way is more advantageous for those unexpected unforeseen panic situations.


Not sure how repeating the statement I already made, which you ignored entirely is "saving face", but whatever floats your boat.

[quote]I'll just head you off at the pass. You said that when the situation calls for it the left foot brakers can "(move his foot over to the pedal, planting heel to floor in front of it, toe pointed upwards and ready to press it as needed). I do this..." This means that in an unexpected situation you would need to move your left foot to the brake, just like I would need to move my right foot to the brake.[/quote]

And again you left off the important part. I can do this prior to the unexpected situation happening (you know. Being prepared for it), without having to sacrifice control of the speed of my car to do so. You can't do it. You *must* choose to either coast the car and cover the brake or maintain speed and not cover the brake. That seems to be a pretty stupid choice to force on yourself if you can avoid it.

Once again, you've pointed out a scenario in which two footed driving is no better than one footed, while ignoring the cases where it is better. If we're both caught by surprise, and you have your foot on the gas pedal, and I have my foot resting to the side, we're both equally slow to respond. But I can move my left foot over to give me an advantage in brake response speed any time I want. So the odds of us being in that "even" situation are low. Most of the time that something unexpected happens, I'm going to already have my left foot poised over the brake. You, on the other hand, will have it on the gas. Thus, your response time will be slower. As I stated multiple times already, the only way for your response time to be as fast as mine is for you to take your foot off the gas and put it over the brake. But by doing this, you lose control of the speed of the car. That is not something you can just do any time you feel like it.
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#144 Aug 10 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Don't you think if there was empirical (sp?) evidence that driving an automatic with 2 feet was safer, people would be taught to drive that way in driver's education courses? I'm 100% positive they are not taught to drive that way, which leaves me wondering why.
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#145 Aug 10 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Sweet jesus, was that the longest gbaji post ever written? (I forgot to log in and therefore it wasn't blocked).
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#146 Aug 10 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Don't you think if there was empirical (sp?) evidence that driving an automatic with 2 feet was safer, people would be taught to drive that way in driver's education courses? I'm 100% positive they are not taught to drive that way, which leaves me wondering why.
Liberals.
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#147 Aug 10 2012 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
trickybeck wrote:

Sweet jesus, was that the longest gbaji post ever written?

Not. Even. Close.
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