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Colorado Shooting and...Follow

#27 Jul 21 2012 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!
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#28 Jul 21 2012 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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And here we go.

#29 Jul 21 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!


The vast majority of people who obtain a concealed carry permit go through enough training that they're one of the few people who aren't panicked in a situation like that.
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#30 Jul 21 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Sure thing Smiley: thumbsup
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#31 Jul 21 2012 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!


The vast majority of people who obtain a concealed carry permit go through enough training that they're one of the few people who aren't panicked in a situation like that.
Got any data to confirm this or are you just talking out of your ***?
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#32 Jul 21 2012 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!


The vast majority of people who obtain a concealed carry permit go through enough training that they're one of the few people who aren't panicked in a situation like that.


A guy I work with just got his concealed carry permit in Michigan a year ago. Honestly, from what he explained, the process seemed much like a joke. Like Boater's Safety courses for 16 year old's to get their boat operating license.
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#33 Jul 21 2012 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
I've seen someone make the argument recently that if more people were allowed to carry concealed weapons, someone else at the theatre would have shot him before he killed a bunch of people.

Someone always makes that argument. From what I understand (which is all second hand and coming from this story), Colorado has some pretty lax laws in this regard. Apparently CO also has unrestricted open carry laws. I had heard someone say earlier that a patron could have brought a shotgun or rifle into the theater if they wanted, so I guess that's where that comes from.

According to this site, your training just needs to be a handgun training class within the last decade. Count me doubtful that that qualifies someone to stay cool and collected in this situation. Of course, this guy was dressed to be shot at and opened his attack with a gas canister so I rather doubt another gun going off in a crowded panicked theater would have helped things.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 12:39pm by Jophiel
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#34 Jul 21 2012 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!


The vast majority of people who obtain a concealed carry permit go through enough training that they're one of the few people who aren't panicked in a situation like that.


A guy I work with just got his concealed carry permit in Michigan a year ago. Honestly, from what he explained, the process seemed much like a joke. Like Boater's Safety courses for 16 year old's to get their boat operating license.


I suppose the process for getting a concealed carry permit is different in every state. I've never gotten a boating license so I can't compare it to that. The class here goes into more than just gun safety, but I'm having a problem thinking of what to compare it to.
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#35 Jul 21 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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So apparently the trailer for "Gangster Squad" was supposed to be pulled from "Dark Knight Rises." There's a scene where a bunch of gangsters shoot through a movie screen and open fire on a room full of movie-goers.

When The Man and I went to see Dark Knight last night, that trailer was shown. I didn't know it was supposed to be pulled, my husband told me when it started.

I understand why they wanted it pulled... but I'm not sure that it matters. Seeing that trailer didn't make me writhe with disgust at the theater for showing it. It didn't make me burst into tears for the people who had been killed. It didn't make me hate Warner Brothers. It didn't make me storm out of the movie. Had my husband not mentioned that it was supposed to be pulled, I probably wouldn't have really connected the two, honestly.

I was curious what other people here thought about that. Do you think that trailer should've been pulled, and our theater (who apparently didn't get the memo way out here in the Pacific) is horrible for showing it?
#36 Jul 21 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can see where some people might find it tacky. It's just a meaningless sensitivity move, I think.

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#37 Jul 21 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Seems like an obvious thing to do in and around Denver or wherever else people may know any of the victims personally. Beyond that it seems like a mostly politically correct thing to do and not a particularly big deal.
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#38 Jul 21 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Default
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Most people who conceal/open carry train regularly, they aren't some random person who decided to pick up a gun because it makes them cool.

Lets say the person is panicked and starts randomly shooting a handgun. How much more damage is it going to cause than someone with a 100 round drum attached to an assault rifle peppering a packed theater? Best case he gets a lucky shot and ends it, more probable would be him drawing the gunman's fire, which would stop him from spraying the entire ******* theater.


And for the record, my sister was good friends with one of the Navy guys who didn't make it out of that theater, so **** you piece of **** liberals for turning this into a **** gun control talking point.
#39 Jul 21 2012 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
Best case he gets a lucky shot and ends it, more probable would be him drawing the gunman's fire, which would stop him from spraying the entire @#%^ing theater.
That wouldn't be a lucky shot. That would be a miracle. It doesn't matter how calm you are, you're still in a theater with hundreds of other people panicking; Running and screaming and bumping into each other and into you. You're also in an extremely dark room with tear gas in the air. Most likely not enough to incapacitate you, but certainly enough to irritate your eyes and skin. And your target, in that dark room, is wearing dark clothes. Not a huge problem in a vacuum because the gun muzzle certainly is bright enough, but couple it with the other factors and the fact that he's gotta shoot first before you can get a bead on him and hope you can calculate well enough to hit him. Also most people don't really carry heavy duty pistols when they have a concealed carry permit, which means they're not exactly known for their dropping power. Here's some hindsight as well: The gunman was apparently wearing a ballistic vest and helmet.

I'm sorry for your sister but get your head out of your *** if you think that someone carrying in that theater would have magically ended the rampage. The most likely outcome would have been he'd have at best injured and panicked the gunman into spraying the entire fucking theater even more.
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#40 Jul 21 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
And for the record, my sister was good friends with one of the Navy guys who didn't make it out of that theater, so @#%^ you piece of sh*t liberals for turning this into a **** gun control talking point..


Fact: Lower capacity magazines would have lowered the casualty count.
Fact: The expiration of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004 is the only reason he could buy an AR-15 assault rifle.
Fact: Liberals did nothing about either of the above after Giffords was shot, no need to worry they might do something now.
Fact: You are a ****.
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#41 Jul 21 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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From what I've seen/heard/been told, the gas was thrown in the front of the theater, right in front of the screen. The gunman left then came in a side door next to the screen. Having him between the gas and the projector would have made a very nice silhouette to shoot at. And he was spraying the AK "like a sprinkler" is the quote reported. 100 round drum, 70 hit, some multiple times. I didn't hear about the shotgun or Glock being fired, only that he had them. So his hit rate was probably in the range of 90+%. Any distraction, even a 9mm to the vest, may have been enough of a distraction to save lives.
#42 Jul 21 2012 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
And for the record, my sister was good friends with one of the Navy guys who didn't make it out of that theater, so @#%^ you piece of sh*t liberals for turning this into a **** gun control talking point..


Fact: Lower capacity magazines would have lowered the casualty count.
Fact: The expiration of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004 is the only reason he could buy an AR-15 assault rifle.
Fact: Liberals did nothing about either of the above after Giffords was shot, no need to worry they might do something now.
Fact: You are a ****.


I agree that lower capacity mags and heavy restrictions should be placed on assault rifles, but banning guns in general will only change the places people buy them from. People run homemade subs right up to our shores and unload drugs by the ton, you think weapons won't be added to the shipments?

And I'm less annoyed about the gun control talk than I am about the fact that it's being turned political less than 24 hours after the fact, before the families of the dead were even notified.
#43 Jul 21 2012 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Panicked civilians with firearms always make situations like that better. How foolish of me to think otherwise!


The vast majority of people who obtain a concealed carry permit go through enough training that they're one of the few people who aren't panicked in a situation like that.

I know for a fact that if I went through gun training and got a permit, I would still panic and be totally useless. I am a wimp when it comes to things like this. Having a gun on me wouldn't have helped anyone. The only way I *might* ever be able to shoot a gun and have it be a useful gesture is if someone broke into my house and a member of my family was in danger.
#44Almalieque, Posted: Jul 21 2012 at 9:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The problem with that is that leads into an array of "what if's" that don't end.
#45 Jul 21 2012 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
I've seen someone make the argument recently that if more people were allowed to carry concealed weapons, someone else at the theatre would have shot him before he killed a bunch of people.
Raolan wrote:
And for the record, my sister was good friends with one of the Navy guys who didn't make it out of that theater, so @#%^ you piece of sh*t liberals for turning this into a **** gun control talking point.

Well, this certainly explains why nothing ever happens on the gun laws front. People like you are more worried about pointing fingers than anything else. Great job!
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#46 Jul 21 2012 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
The problem with that is that leads into an array of "what if's" that don't end.

Sure. Perhaps we should look at the event as it happened than a bunch of "Oh, if only a super-trained-and-ready-concealed-carry-hero was there to save the day" scenarios.

As it actually happened, in a state with fairly lax concealed carry laws and extremely lax open carry laws, no one pulled out a gun and shot down this maniac.
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#47 Jul 21 2012 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
Fun Fact: Assault Weapons are Permanently banned in the state of Massachusetts.

Guess which Presidential candidate who signed that into law? Hint: Not the black guy.
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#48Almalieque, Posted: Jul 21 2012 at 10:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's what I mean. I agree with you. To argue that a "superhero" could have saved the day can just as easily be countered with "what if the superhero were shot and killed first"? Any "end" wouldn't be in favor of guns anyway, so it's silly to argue that point.
#49 Jul 21 2012 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
The problem with that is that leads into an array of "what if's" that don't end.

Sure. Perhaps we should look at the event as it happened than a bunch of "Oh, if only a super-trained-and-ready-concealed-carry-hero was there to save the day" scenarios.

As it actually happened, in a state with fairly lax concealed carry laws and extremely lax open carry laws, no one pulled out a gun and shot down this maniac.

And from what little bit I have heard about the theater in question, it was a "gun-free" zone. So a law-abiding citizen wouldn't have carried anyway.
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#50 Jul 22 2012 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
I agree that lower capacity mags and heavy restrictions should be placed on assault rifles
I'm just baffled that it is at all possible for anyone to buy an assault rifle. The only ******* thing it's made to do is shoot people, let's keep that with the military whose job includes shooting people when necessary. It's not a weapon for hunting nor is it any good at defending your home with unless you're expecting the zombie apocalypse to happen anytime now.
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#51 Jul 22 2012 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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How lax or strict the conceal carry laws are in Colorado is a moot point, as the guy didn't carry the weapons into the theatre normally. He exited through the emergency exit, went to his car, geared up and came back in. Whether someone else with a concealed carry permit and weapon could have stopped him is debatable. Sorry, I don't think all that uber training you get in that class is enough, as others have said it's not all that involved. Mostly it's just training about the particulars of where you can and can't carry a concealed weapon. I know, I looked into it and nearly signed up for a class last year.

Maybe some of the guys I've met at local gun ranges that participate a lot in shooting competitions and the like might be more likely to remain calm in that situation. Still, as others have said, between the panicked masses, tear gas, and full body armor of the scumbag, I'm not all that sure it would have helped. We can speculate all we want, but the fact is no one in there was equipped to do so anyway.

I saw a link to the Onion the other day that was pretty accurate as to how it will all play out.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sadly-nation-knows-exactly-how-colorado-shootings,28857/

While satire, it's pretty spot on really.
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