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#302 Jul 29 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.
#303 Jul 29 2012 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
paulsol wrote:
Totem wrote:
Getting back to the original topic, I'd like to put forward the opinion that the gang that has been openly raping and pillaging this country since 1990 isn't the GOP or the Democrats. It's the Ivy League. They're just different turds dropping from the same a$$hole. Can I get a witness?

Totem


/Raises hand. Well said.

Also. I would say that 'Belief in the Cause' is the deciding factor in the outcome of any conflict. The side that has its heart in the fight is the one who will come out on top, regardless of firepower.....It may take time and turn into a lengthy insurgency type scenario, but the side with their hearts in it will eventually come out on top. Every time.

After all, who really wants to die for something that they don't totally believe in?


Yes, the power of heart can overcome automatic weapons, military armor and atomic fire.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... No wait, you're serious?

[i]ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah......etc.




Unfortunately, the history of international armed conflict does not support your feeble attempt at derision.

You should run for government office. With the grasp of history that you seem to possess you'd fit right in.

Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

I can provide literally hundreds of examples where superior firepower, strategy and power has won out.
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#304 Jul 29 2012 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Guenny wrote:
I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.


Yes, because people have never had new tech before.
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#305 Jul 29 2012 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

It's like you want to be disappointed.
#306 Jul 29 2012 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:

Can you provide one instance where "wanting it hard enough" has liberated a country?

I can provide literally hundreds of examples where superior firepower, strategy and power has won out.


'Won out'? What does that even mean in terms of war-fighting? If you mean it killed the most people, that maybe true, but its a pretty crass way to define victory

What I'm talking about tho' is if a superior force attacks an inferior force in its ( the inferior forces) own territory, then fire power and technology is not ever going to be enough to defeat the inferior force (Unless of course you kill every last person able to resist. Is that what you meant?). Hence the relentless and ultimately futile efforts of the US led forces in Iraq to win over the 'hearts and minds' of the occupied peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Anyway, you asked for an example. Heres a few.....

Afghanistan v Great Britain. 18th Century. (Twice)

Afghanistan v USSR 19th Century ( a pattern forming there!)

Somalia v USA

Vietnam v USA

Korea V USA

Iraq v USA and the coalition of the (lol)willing.

Israel v Palestinians

Etc.

Also.
Guenny wrote:

I think using history as a fact basis for the application of technology is oxymoronic.


A flint tipped spear is Hi-tech to someone carrying a knobbly stick for defence. Just sayin'.
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#307 Jul 29 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Iraq v USA and the coalition of the (lol)willing


The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.

Quote:
Israel v Palestinians


Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.

Quote:
Vietnam v USA


This one is really a two-parter, The US crushes N viet force for a while then leaves. Then N. viet, armed by Russia/China crushes the S viet forces who they heavily outgun.
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#308 Jul 30 2012 at 1:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.
... And in ONE day last week 29 bombing attacks in 19 cities, killing 111 civilian and wounding another 235. Today 13 Iraqis were killed and 30 more were wounded in attacks. Good work!

Quote:
Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.


Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military. The Palestinians are still there and unless the Israelis kill every last one of them, they will still be resisting the occupation. Which sorta proves my point.

Quote:
This one is really a two-parter, The US crushes N viet force for a while then leaves. Then N. viet, armed by Russia/China crushes the S viet forces who they heavily outgun.


Make all the excuses you feel the need for, but at the end of the day the greatest military machine in the world lost the will to lose any more of its personnel or spend any more money on a fight against an enemy that was fighting in pyjamas and flip-flops and using weapons left over from WWII. All the jets, helicopters and state of the art chemical weapons wern't enough to subdue a population that was fighting for a belief against an enemy who had no idea what they were fighting for. Which again, proves my point.
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#309 Jul 30 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
paulsol wrote:
Quote:
The US crushed Saddam's forces and installed a new gov't.
... And in ONE day last week 29 bombing attacks in 19 cities, killing 111 civilian and wounding another 235. Today 13 Iraqis were killed and 30 more were wounded in attacks. Good work!


And Saddam executed hundreds of thousands, and the US occupation killed somewhere on that order of magnitude.

It's an unstable region with a history of sectarian violence. This isn't me justifying the killings, just try looking at magnitude and scope.

[
Quote:
quote]Tiny nation with big guns survives in a sea of unfriendly less armed nations. Continuously displaces Palestinians.


Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military. The Palestinians are still there and unless the Israelis kill every last one of them, they will still be resisting the occupation. Which sorta proves my point.


And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.
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#310 Jul 30 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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This isn't me justifying the killings,


Yes. It is. And its also irrelevant to what we were talking about.

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And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.


The UK / N. Ireland situation and the Palestinian/ Israeli are utterly different. Perhaps you should read up on both?

Anyway, I proved my point. Further discussion with you about it would be pointless.
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#311 Jul 30 2012 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
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This isn't me justifying the killings,


Yes. It is. And its also irrelevant to what we were talking about.


Baffling, simply baffling. I'm arguing that military assets win wars, not a greater desire to win. Not the morality of war.


Quote:
Quote:
And so will the IRA, but last I checked England still runs northern Ireland.


The UK / N. Ireland situation and the Palestinian/ Israeli are utterly different. Perhaps you should read up on both?

Anyway, I proved my point. Further discussion with you about it would be pointless.


They are absolutely different situations. But in both cases superior military power allows for occupation. If that's now you're point, you proved it.
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#312 Jul 30 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Hell. I've lost track of who's arguing what at this point, but really?

paulsol wrote:
Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military.


I'm not even asking for precise fact checking here. But even a vague idea of the ballpark ranges of nations budgets would help.

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 2:54pm by gbaji
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#313 Jul 30 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Hell. I've lost track of who's arguing what at this point, but really?

paulsol wrote:
Israel spends US$13,001,000,000 annually on its military.


I'm not even asking for precise fact checking here. But even a vague idea of the ballpark ranges of nations budgets would help.

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 2:54pm by gbaji


I just like the odd inclusion of a 1 in a insignificant place.
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#314 Jul 30 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Apparently, that one was feeling left out or something. Dunno.
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#315 Jul 30 2012 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I assumed that went to pay Dr. Evil, and I quote, "1 millioooon dollars, Muhahahaha".
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#316 Jul 30 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I thought it was more like, Israel *receives* US $13B for its military.
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#317 Jul 30 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
I thought it was more like, Israel *receives* US $13B for its military.


I actually thought he meant 13 Trillion dollars (hence my initial response). So I cant count sets of zeros. But why make a point of presenting that number like it's huge, if you're only talking about $13 Billion? Guess I'm just confused about that little factoid all the way around (I'm blaming it on the extra one!). OMG! Israel, a nation surrounded by much larger nations, most of which have publicly stated a desire to destroy it and some of which have attempted to do so militarily twice in the past, spends as much on their military as the US spends on their school lunch program. Alert the **** media!

Edited, Jul 30th 2012 5:45pm by gbaji
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#318 Jul 30 2012 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering $13B puts them as the #3 country on a per capita basis, it is a significant number. In actual dollars, it still ranks them 18th in the world.

Just because the US is absurd in it's military spending doesn't mean Israel isn't excessive as well.
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#319 Jul 30 2012 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Are we still sending an equal amount of military aid to Egypt?
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#320 Jul 30 2012 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Considering $13B puts them as the #3 country on a per capita basis, it is a significant number. In actual dollars, it still ranks them 18th in the world.

Just because the US is absurd in it's military spending doesn't mean Israel isn't excessive as well.


The US's military spending is excessive, but I'm not sure Israel's is. It's high, but look at a map of military spending as a percentage of GDP. That whole region is high, and they have many enemies.
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#321 Jul 30 2012 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
but I'm not sure Israel's is.


That will be all those Nukes they have 'hidden' in the Negev. They always are a bit of a money pit.
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#322 Jul 30 2012 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah. $13B out of $68B total budget isn't really excessive. Doubly so given the circumstances they're in. I don't think that per-capita is a very good way to measure since it gives you no idea what other things cost relative to that number. Guess I'm still puzzled what Paul's point was other than to take a stab at Israel.
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#323 Aug 03 2012 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Are we still sending an equal amount of military aid to Egypt?


Of course not. They're no longer our dictatorial puppet. And they don't have the domestic political strength ala Israel or Cuba Floridians to puppet us. We've washed our hands of them and revisioned our history to actually supporting democracy there. Things are continuing effectively to maintain our interests, don't fret.
#324 Aug 03 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, we're not sending Egypt as much as I thought we were. I seem to recall hearing some time ago that Egypt and Israel received the same amount of funding from us, but it's only $1.3Bn.
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#325 Aug 03 2012 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Yeah. $13B out of $68B total budget isn't really excessive. Doubly so given the circumstances they're in. I don't think that per-capita is a very good way to measure since it gives you no idea what other things cost relative to that number. Guess I'm still puzzled what Paul's point was other than to take a stab at Israel.


Right, this is why I offered percentage of GDP as an appropriate measuring tool.
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#326 Aug 04 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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I guess it's time for a new topic.

So, how do you guys feel about the 4th amendment not applying to almost 2/3 of US citizens?

Hilariously enough, ~90% of NE, (which is indirectly the source of the 4th amendment via the quartering act) is covered by the unlimited search and seizure region.
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#327 Aug 04 2012 at 11:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just to nit-pick, Lake Michigan is completely within the US border so cities along the Lake (most notably Chicago but also Milwaukee, Gary, Green Bay, etc) aren't within 100 miles from the national border, coastal or otherwise.
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#328 Aug 05 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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I think the law specifies land borders, I'd have to double check.
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#329 Aug 07 2012 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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Timelordwho wrote:
I guess it's time for a new topic.

So, how do you guys feel about the 4th amendment not applying to almost 2/3 of US citizens?


Wait. So law enforcement can simply walk into your house and search it without a warrant or probable cause? No? Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? Citizenship checkpoints (some distance from the border even) have been legal (and constitutional) since long before 9/11 and the Patriot Act btw. This is not really anything new.

Quote:
Hilariously enough, ~90% of NE, (which is indirectly the source of the 4th amendment via the quartering act) is covered by the unlimited search and seizure region.


More hilarious than confusing the 3rd and 4th amendments?

Edited, Aug 7th 2012 7:13pm by gbaji
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#330 Aug 08 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?
Welcome to the joke.
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#331 Aug 09 2012 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
I guess it's time for a new topic.

So, how do you guys feel about the 4th amendment not applying to almost 2/3 of US citizens?


Wait. So law enforcement can simply walk into your house and search it without a warrant or probable cause? No? Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? Citizenship checkpoints (some distance from the border even) have been legal (and constitutional) since long before 9/11 and the Patriot Act btw. This is not really anything new.

Quote:
Hilariously enough, ~90% of NE, (which is indirectly the source of the 4th amendment via the quartering act) is covered by the unlimited search and seizure region.


More hilarious than confusing the 3rd and 4th amendments?

Edited, Aug 7th 2012 7:13pm by gbaji


Sorry, the Excise Act, not the Quartering Act.
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#332 Aug 09 2012 at 2:00 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?
Welcome to the joke.


It would be a lot funnier as a joke if the ACLU got it.
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#333 Aug 10 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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It was humorous enough that you didn't.
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#334Palpitus1, Posted: Oct 04 2012 at 4:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Uh, obviously not. The NDAA and other various FISA etc. laws give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if even one appropriate leader in government decides you're a terrorist. Hell, this was happening during Bush. Folks incarcerated, and according to Patriot Act not allowed to speak to anyone about their detention.
#335 Oct 04 2012 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Pro-tip: vote for neither.
That'll work out.
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#336 Oct 04 2012 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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More like AMATEUR Tip, amirite?
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#337 Oct 04 2012 at 6:55 PM Rating: Default
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Not sure I should even bother, but:

Palpitus1 wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Wait. So law enforcement can simply walk into your house and search it without a warrant or probable cause? No? Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?


Uh, obviously not. The NDAA and other various FISA etc. laws give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if even one appropriate leader in government decides you're a terrorist.


And all the other laws we have give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if the local police decide you're the guy who just robbed a bank, took a 6 year old girl hostage, and are holed up in your home. Guess what? They're going to come storming into your house, guns out and potentially blazing if you make the slightest wrong move. Do mistakes happen like this? Yeah. Are they extremely rare? Yeah. Does this mean that the constitution no longer applied? Not at all.

Quote:
Hell, this was happening during Bush. Folks incarcerated, and according to Patriot Act not allowed to speak to anyone about their detention.


Convenient. It's happening to all sorts of people, but there are no clearly documented cases or lawsuits because they aren't allowed to speak about it! No conspiracy theory going on here at all! Smiley: oyvey
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#338 Oct 05 2012 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And all the other laws we have give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if the local police decide you're the guy who just robbed a bank, took a 6 year old girl hostage, and are holed up in your home.
Of course, if you take her from a playground, take her to another state, and have her get an abortion there's nothing illegal about that.
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#339 Oct 16 2012 at 4:50 AM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Not sure I should even bother, but:

And all the other laws we have give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if the local police decide you're the guy who just robbed a bank, took a 6 year old girl hostage, and are holed up in your home. Guess what? They're going to come storming into your house, guns out and potentially blazing if you make the slightest wrong move. Do mistakes happen like this? Yeah. Are they extremely rare? Yeah. Does this mean that the constitution no longer applied? Not at all.


This BS is not extremely rare in the Obama Administration. Hell, Obama doesn't even need a warrant or charge to assassinate someone. Good luck challenging an NDAA hit order on you before you even know it exists, so thus are dead. Or a FISA where you have no idea your records were subpeonaed--and not by any judge's warrants or decisions.

Quote:
Convenient. It's happening to all sorts of people, but there are no clearly documented cases or lawsuits because they aren't allowed to speak about it! No conspiracy theory going on here at all! Smiley: oyvey


Are you willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant? Google "Patriot Act + Gag Order" to inform yourself. Hey, here's an early hit:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/10/patriot-act-gag/

Quote:
On Tuesday, a New York judge ruling in the lawsuit brought by the anonymous ISP president, declined to lift the gag placed on him, despite the new gagging standards announced by the 2nd Circuit. The lower court judge’s decision was based on secret evidence the FBI provided.

The judge said the government claimed national security (.pdf) was at issue. Lifting the gag, he wrote, “could tip off the target of an ongoing investigation as well as other individuals who are under investigation.”

The plaintiff’s lawyers, of the American Civil Liberties Union, were not privy to what the government told U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero in private while urging him not to lift what is now a 5-year-old gag.


What is the charge, exactly? Well, we don't know, since the defendant and his lawyers are legally required to never say what it is.

Quote:
“To my knowledge, there’s three recipients who have ever challenged the NSL gag. That’s of the hundreds of thousands that have been issued,” said Melissa Goodman, an ACLU attorney on the case decided Tuesday.


While you're on Google, also look up "National Security Letter".

eta: quote fix






Edited, Oct 16th 2012 6:53am by Palpitus1
#340 Oct 16 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Palpitus1 wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Not sure I should even bother, but:

And all the other laws we have give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if the local police decide you're the guy who just robbed a bank, took a 6 year old girl hostage, and are holed up in your home. Guess what? They're going to come storming into your house, guns out and potentially blazing if you make the slightest wrong move. Do mistakes happen like this? Yeah. Are they extremely rare? Yeah. Does this mean that the constitution no longer applied? Not at all.


This BS is not extremely rare in the Obama Administration.
It's not rare in any administration. Dimwit.

You need to do some soul-searching to figure out why it is that when Obama does presidential type stuff it **** you off so badly (hint: It has nothing to do with Obama).
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#341 Oct 16 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Not sure I should even bother


You're catching on.
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#342 Oct 16 2012 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sure, except for everything after that sentence fragment.
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#343 Oct 18 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Palpitus1 wrote:
This BS is not extremely rare in the Obama Administration. Hell, Obama doesn't even need a warrant or charge to assassinate someone. Good luck challenging an NDAA hit order on you before you even know it exists, so thus are dead. Or a FISA where you have no idea your records were subpeonaed--and not by any judge's warrants or decisions.


You're conflating like three or more completely different legal issues though. I was originally talking about search and seizure requirements. You know, like a police officer being able to search your car or your person if he has probable cause that you're in violation of the law? Cause that's what this was originally about. Get back to me when someone is picked up by the government for speeding and hidden away in a secret jail without legal recourse.

Quote:
Quote:
Convenient. It's happening to all sorts of people, but there are no clearly documented cases or lawsuits because they aren't allowed to speak about it! No conspiracy theory going on here at all! Smiley: oyvey


Are you willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant? Google "Patriot Act + Gag Order" to inform yourself. Hey, here's an early hit:


No. I understand the issues better that you do and am not alarmed by a jumble of facts which don't really mean what people like you think they do.

Case in point:

Quote:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/10/patriot-act-gag/

Quote:
On Tuesday, a New York judge ruling in the lawsuit brought by the anonymous ISP president, declined to lift the gag placed on him, despite the new gagging standards announced by the 2nd Circuit. The lower court judge’s decision was based on secret evidence the FBI provided.

The judge said the government claimed national security (.pdf) was at issue. Lifting the gag, he wrote, “could tip off the target of an ongoing investigation as well as other individuals who are under investigation.”

The plaintiff’s lawyers, of the American Civil Liberties Union, were not privy to what the government told U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero in private while urging him not to lift what is now a 5-year-old gag.


What is the charge, exactly? Well, we don't know, since the defendant and his lawyers are legally required to never say what it is.


It's a gag order. As far as I can tell no one has been arrested or charged with a crime. There is no charge. Did you just fail to read the article, or did you fail to understand what it said? This does not mean that someone can be arrested or detained and not be able to speak about it (which is what you suggested earlier). It means that if the police use some information you have in a sensitive investigation, they can require that you not speak about that. Those are not even remotely the same thing.
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#344 Oct 18 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Get back to me when someone is picked up by the government for speeding and hidden away in a secret jail without legal recourse.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/30/man-held-in-solitary-two-years-without-trial-cannot-remember-ordeal/

DWI, not speeding, but same result. The fact that he was finally able to get retribution does not negate the failure of the justice system in this case.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#345 Oct 18 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Default
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Get back to me when someone is picked up by the government for speeding and hidden away in a secret jail without legal recourse.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/30/man-held-in-solitary-two-years-without-trial-cannot-remember-ordeal/

DWI, not speeding, but same result. The fact that he was finally able to get retribution does not negate the failure of the justice system in this case.


So basically what I said earlier:

gbaji wrote:
And all the other laws we have give you absolutely no Constitutional protections if the local police decide you're the guy who just robbed a bank, took a 6 year old girl hostage, and are holed up in your home. Guess what? They're going to come storming into your house, guns out and potentially blazing if you make the slightest wrong move. Do mistakes happen like this? Yeah. Are they extremely rare? Yeah. Does this mean that the constitution no longer applied? Not at all.



It's silly to make a big deal about what could happen under a given law without examining what could happen under existing law. It's like insisting that a new car is unsafe because if you fall asleep at the wheel you could crash and die. What happens if you fall asleep at the wheel of your current car? Same thing, right? All police powers carry with them the potential for abuse (or just really bad choices/mistakes). That by itself isn't sufficient argument against allowing them.
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#347 Oct 18 2012 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
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SwaziSpring wrote:
a vote for Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin.

Two of history's best friends.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#349 Oct 19 2012 at 5:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's silly to make a big deal about what could happen under a given law without examining what could happen under existing law. It's like insisting that a new car is unsafe because if you fall asleep at the wheel you could crash and die. What happens if you fall asleep at the wheel of your current car? Same thing, right? All police powers carry with them the potential for abuse (or just really bad choices/mistakes). That by itself isn't sufficient argument against allowing them.


It's also silly to give authority figures more easily abused powers under the banner of "They could already abuse the ones they have, so hey, whatever..."
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#350 Oct 19 2012 at 5:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's silly to make a big deal about what could happen under a given law without examining what could happen under existing law. It's like insisting that a new car is unsafe because if you fall asleep at the wheel you could crash and die. What happens if you fall asleep at the wheel of your current car? Same thing, right? All police powers carry with them the potential for abuse (or just really bad choices/mistakes). That by itself isn't sufficient argument against allowing them.


It's also silly to give authority figures more easily abused powers under the banner of "They could already abuse the ones they have, so hey, whatever..."

Yea, I'm confused by gbaji here. Your statement would typically be his, seeing as he wants as small a government as possible and as little regulation as possible. This just seems so opposite of his typical stance. I haven't been following this, so did a Republican propose this?
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#351 Oct 19 2012 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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SwaziSpring wrote:
A vote for the Greens is basically a vote for Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin.
They're both dead. Smiley: confused
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