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#52 Jun 21 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
You are utterly a tool. This was in my local paper, The Dallas Morning News, just today.


Of course it's there, today. It was not there last month. Or the month before that. Or that. Or for the last 18+ months that this has been an ongoing story. What part of me saying that it's received very little coverage (past tense) makes you think that the fact that it finally gets some significant coverage after a major action is finally taken somehow nullifies this?

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People are even discussing it in the op-ed section of the Dallas Morning News in the section reserved for reader opinions, because apparently everyone seems to know and care about it.


Yes. And for many of them, the news over the last week is probably the first time they heard of this. That's why the sudden buzz. People woke up one day and saw news reports about some committee voting on whether to find the Attorney General in contempt and went "what's going on?". It should be "we've been seeing this coming for a year now", but most people's reactions are "why is this suddenly happening out of the blue?". Which, I suppose, conveniently plays into the current Dem talking point that this is just Republicans playing election year politics. You get that said talking point doesn't work well on anyone who knows that this has been building for over a year and a half, right?

The Left's approach to this banks on most of the average folks whose primary source of news comes on after their favorite prime time shows thinking this is some new thing the GOP just sprang on them and represents an unfair attack on the President and his administration and they should all be ashamed of themselves for their gross partisanship. Is that not what the Dems and their mouthpieces are saying right now? Why say that if the audience was informed enough to know that this isn't new news?

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 5:02pm by gbaji
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#53 Jun 21 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know you hear the term "strawman" used at you all the time but I don't think you've figured out yet what it means.

Your "proof!" links admit that CBS has covered the story, admit that ABC has covered the story and is reduced to whining about a singular NBC program (ignoring any other news programming on NBC). You reject mention of print, internet or radio as not really counting. You completely neglect the cable networks.

Now, if you thought "strawman" meant "Wow, Jophiel sure did show where I keep crying about the media even though it's abundantly clear that I'm wrong", then I understand why you used the term. Sadly, that's not what it means though.

While you're looking up "strawman", keep flipping around until you find another fallacy called "No True Scotsman". I think you'll find it enlightening, assuming you can comprehend it.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 7:02pm by Jophiel
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#54 Jun 21 2012 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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For someone that cries all the time that the media is trying to brainwash him, I'm amused at how much he's crying about the media not trying to brainwash him.
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#55 Jun 21 2012 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I know you hear the term "strawman" used at you all the time but I don't think you've figured out yet what it means.


Did I ever say that there was "No media coverage!"? You claiming that (in quotes no less!) and then arguing against that false claim is exactly what a strawman is. WTF?


You can sit there and point at dribbles and drabs of reporting, and insist that lack of coverage during primetime television news shows really doesn't matter, but nothing you're saying supports your original claim that it received "extensive coverage" (note how I quote what you actually said). Are you still really going to claim that the coverage of this was "extensive"? And how do you measure that? Relative to other similar political scandals, how does the media coverage stack up? More or less than Plame? More or less than NSA wiretapping? More or less than a GOP congressman allegedly having *** with pages? More or less than Bush faking his flight records? Less, right? Want to know what all of those have in common? All big (huge in a couple cases) stories. All alleging some wrongdoing or scandal by someone on the right. All false.


Forgive me if I laugh out loud at the blatant projection when Dems decry this as some kind of politically driven witch hunt. Cause they're the experts on it apparently. And yeah. The media helps them with this quite frequently and blatantly.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 5:17pm by gbaji
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#56 Jun 21 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
For someone that cries all the time that the media is trying to brainwash him, I'm amused at how much he's crying about the media not trying to brainwash him.


It's about inconsistency which is consistently and blatantly biased in a single political direction. And this story really highlights that. Big time. If this had happened under a GOP president's watch, the media would have been hounding the White House from day one. People would be marching in the streets. You'd have bumperstickers and mobs of angry people. That happens *because* the media chooses to cover a story. When they don't, you don't get marches and protests, and you don't get people talking about it, and you don't get political pressure applied.

Joph mentioned earlier about Obama being able to get away with some serious expansions of executive power in the past few years. But how much of that is made possible because the media doesn't raise any kind of outcry? Like I mentioned earlier, this should not be about political party. But unfortunately, for many it is. For many, they'll look the other way if it's "my guy" stretching the law. But the reality is that we all lose when this happens. It's not about sides. Or at least, it shouldn't be.
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#57 Jun 21 2012 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
It's not about sides.
Sure it isn't.
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#58 Jun 21 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Did I ever say that there was "No media coverage!"?
gbaji previously wrote:
it's taken well over a year for the media to provide any coverage

This is where you start spinning desperately saying that claiming the media hasn't provided any coverage in the past year isn't the same as saying there's been no media coverage.

Ready... Set.... GO!!!!!
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#59 Jun 21 2012 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Of course it's there, today. It was not there last month. Or the month before that. Or that.

No, it was there last year. That my local paper has not decided run a monthly section devoted to this story does not make it ignored.

The problem is that it was news a year ago. The TDS clip I posted showing coverage from FOX, CNN, C-span, etc. was a year old. People heard about it, through a fit fora week, and then got bored like most of these scandals.
gbaji wrote:
Is that not what the Dems and their mouthpieces are saying right now?

But it isn't. Pretty much everyone agrees this was a huge failure. The left leaning TDS clip I linked was far from apologetic.

You're not mad that liberals are ignoring the issue. You're mad that they were outraged before you wanted them to be and not as long as you wanted them to be.
#60 Jun 21 2012 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
That my local paper has not decided run a monthly section devoted to this story does not make it ignored.
NO! IF IT ISN'T FRONT PAGE NEWS ON EVERY PAPER, IN EVERY CITY, IN EVERY STATE, IN EVERY COUNTRY IN EVERY WORLD, IN EVERY UNIVERSE, BOTH EARLY AND LATE EDITION, AND BROUGHT UP AT LEAST FOUR TIMES EVERY HALF HOUR ON EVERY FREQUENCY FROM RADIO TO COLOR AND A NEW BLOG ARTICLE ABOUT IT EVERY TWENTY ONE POINT SEVEN SECONDS THEN THAT MEANS THERE IS A DEMOCRATIC LIBERAL MEDIA CONSPIRACY TO IGNORE IT!

God, it's just that obvious.

Edited, Jun 21st 2012 10:53pm by lolgaxe
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#61 Jun 21 2012 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Does it blow a hole in gbaji's lack of media argument if I heard this exact story on ABC's nighttime news as I was reading this thread?


And on All Things Considered on my way home in the car.


Yes. Now tell me how many times you saw this on TV or heard about it on any non-conservative talk radio show prior to the last couple weeks?

I've known about it for months, maybe even a year - I can't remember specifically when or where, but I listen to NPR, CBS news radio-NYC and BBC World News regularly.

It's just fairly amusing that you brought up this whole issue only as the story re-surfaced with the recent events, bringing it back into the mass-media spotlight. Almost as if *you* hadn't known about it until now, then suddenly jumped up and proclaimed "Look what's been going on all this time! And nobody knew about it!"
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#62 Jun 21 2012 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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The short version is that if everyone doesn't follow the party line on how huge this is, it's all the media's fault. Not, you know, because people didn't find it to be as huge as the GOP insists.
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#63 Jun 21 2012 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering the state of affairs with Mexican drug cartels staging full-scale war on each other, the police and the Mexican army, I would want to keep our meddling under wraps until there was some sort of control established down there. Regardless of who on which side of the aisle did what up here.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#64 Jun 21 2012 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
...Everyone doesn't follow the party line on how huge this is. ...People didn't find it to be as huge as the GOP insists.


The water was freezing! Don't you know about shrinkage?!?
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#65 Jun 22 2012 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Not, you know, because people didn't find it to be as huge as the GOP insists.


Selling guns to Mexican gangs, naming oversees operatives, mercenary soldiers gone wild, personal time with your intern, shady real estate deals... meh. It fits nicely into the overall narrative at least. Smiley: rolleyes
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#66 Jun 22 2012 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
mercenary soldiers gone wild,
******* and SG550s, whoo!
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#67 Jun 22 2012 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Clinton only left office with a 70% approval rating because the media refused to cover than Lewinsky thing.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#68 Jun 22 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Clinton only left office with a 70% approval rating because the media refused to cover than Lewinsky thing.
Yeah, and when's the last time the lame stream media has had a story about that? Way to prove gbaji right about media blackouts.
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#69 Jun 22 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I keep becoming more and more ashamed of the media we have in this country. They used to at least attempt to pretend to cover the news fairly and leave their own biases at the door. But that time seems to be in the past now.

Don't you like to quote Fox News whenever you think you have a point to make?

#70 Jun 22 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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xantav wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I keep becoming more and more ashamed of the media we have in this country. They used to at least attempt to pretend to cover the news fairly and leave their own biases at the door. But that time seems to be in the past now.

Don't you like to quote Fox News whenever you think you have a point to make?


He doesn't have any points to make. They too come from Fox News.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#71 Jun 22 2012 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
Fast & Furious, a Brief Summary for Those whom get their News from Nowhere:

Fast & Furious describes an ATF program where guns bought in the US were tracked to see which Mexican cartels they ended up with. These guns were not bought & given to cartels & without Fast & Furious tracking said guns, the guns would have ended up in the same places they ended up at even with Fast & Furious tracking them.

A border patrol agent was killed in a firefight with cartel members & 2 guns that were tracked by Fast & Furious were found at the scene. Due to the degradation of the bullet that killed the agent, it is unknown if either of those tracked guns killed him.

The DOJ has released 7K+ documents to the committee investigating Fast & Furious. Obama has asserted executive privilege over documents related to F&F after February 4, 2011, which is when congress began their investigation. The reason he says he has done so, is those documents deal with "the department's response to congressional oversight and related media inquiries,". Any "gotcha" documents, they'd be found before the investigation began, when F&F was actually running.

While invoking Executive Privilege pretty much always implies guilt, just like when you do so for firing 7 JD attorneys for partisan reasons & your AG resigns over it, at this time there are zero "crimes" that have come to light in any or all of the investigation related to F&F thus far. Holder's contempt vote is in regards to not turning over documents congress wants for some reason that do not relate to the F&F program at all, as the documents they want (which deal with the DOJs response to the investigation) are dated after F&F was shut down.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2012 6:58am by Omegavegeta
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#73 Jun 23 2012 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Fast & Furious, a Brief Summary for Those whom get their News from Nowhere:

Fast & Furious describes an ATF program where guns bought in the US were tracked to see which Mexican cartels they ended up with. These guns were not bought & given to cartels & without Fast & Furious tracking said guns, the guns would have ended up in the same places they ended up at even with Fast & Furious tracking them.

A border patrol agent was killed in a firefight with cartel members & 2 guns that were tracked by Fast & Furious were found at the scene. Due to the degradation of the bullet that killed the agent, it is unknown if either of those tracked guns killed him.

The DOJ has released 7K+ documents to the committee investigating Fast & Furious. Obama has asserted executive privilege over documents related to F&F after February 4, 2011, which is when congress began their investigation. The reason he says he has done so, is those documents deal with "the department's response to congressional oversight and related media inquiries,". Any "gotcha" documents, they'd be found before the investigation began, when F&F was actually running.

While invoking Executive Privilege pretty much always implies guilt, just like when you do so for firing 7 JD attorneys for partisan reasons & your AG resigns over it, at this time there are zero "crimes" that have come to light in any or all of the investigation related to F&F thus far. Holder's contempt vote is in regards to not turning over documents congress wants for some reason that do not relate to the F&F program at all, as the documents they want (which deal with the DOJs response to the investigation) are dated after F&F was shut down.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2012 6:58am by Omegavegeta


Everything you said was correct until you started defending the administration.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2012 8:27am by Bigdaddyjug
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#74 Jun 23 2012 at 7:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Saying it twice doesn't make it true. Cite, please.
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#75 Jun 23 2012 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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It was all bereft and stuff.
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#76 Jun 23 2012 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Saying it twice doesn't make it true. Cite, please.


Well, since he decided to go with "Crimes", the extremely poorly run operation was a "crime" that led to the death of 2 federal agents. The AG also stonewalled Congress for almost a year before hiding behind the, possibly, wrongfully used executive privelige.

Oh, and the Congressional investigation is more into the cover-up rather than the actual F&F operation, so those documents being dated after F&F was shut down is irrelevant as they could still apply to the cover-up.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2012 9:16am by Bigdaddyjug
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