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#1 May 04 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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That's right. The private sector has officially regained all the jobs that were lost since Obama took office. All 4.2 million of them,

So why is unemployment still so sh*tty?

Oh. The beast has been starved to death and is still on a diet. (Disclaimer: Liberal link.)

Think Progress wrote:
As of April, there are now more private sector jobs in the United States than there were in January 2009, when President Obama took office. You read that right. We have now replaced all of the private sector jobs lost while Obama has been president. And that was no mean feat, given that over the course of 2009, the private sector shed about 4.2 million jobs.

Unfortunately, the news is not nearly so good when it comes to the public sector, where there are currently 607,000 fewer people working than there were when President Obama took office.
The chart below tells the whole story. Under President Obama, the private sector has experienced a relatively robust recovery, and is now back to where it started when he took office.


What jobs have been starved out of existance?

Teachers. Firefighters. Police officers. Construction workers.

Careers that used to be respected among all sectors of American life, which are now considered pigs suckling at the government teat by too many on the right because they had the gall to form unions.

Four years ago when I went to renew my driver's license, the DMV's new process was in place with all 8 windows hopping and I was in and out in five minutes. On Wednesday, I was in there for almost an hour because only half the windows were staffed, despite the very efficient system still working well. Budget cuts at the state and local levels killed at least those four jobs, greatly inconveniencing everyone who drives in the state, all in the name of saving them a couple bucks on their taxes.

Edited, May 4th 2012 6:06pm by catwho
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#2 May 04 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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#3 May 04 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:

What jobs have been starved out of existance?

Teachers. Firefighters. Police officers. Construction workers.


I'd love to see the source for the chart in your link and some sort of source showing that it's those groups that have suffered the job losses in the public sector. I know that liberal pundits and politicians always rattle off "teachers, police, and firefighters", whenever the issue of public sector employment comes up, but there area a whole lot of folks on the public payrolls who don't fall into those groups at all.

Quote:
Four years ago when I went to renew my driver's license, the DMV's new process was in place with all 8 windows hopping and I was in and out in five minutes. On Wednesday, I was in there for almost an hour because only half the windows were staffed, despite the very efficient system still working well.


So why do you suppose no one ever includes "DMV workers" in the list of public sector jobs we must save? You know what a bait and switch is, right?


Quote:
Budget cuts at the state and local levels killed at least those four jobs, greatly inconveniencing everyone who drives in the state, all in the name of saving them a couple bucks on their taxes.


Then by all means, champion the cause of increasing budgets so we can hire more people at the DMV. But don't misdirect people by talking about professions which most people feel a lot more sympathy and respect for. That's dishonest at the very least.
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#4 May 04 2012 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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Our local city is having to cut 3 full time firefighter positions due to budget shortfalls this year.
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#5 May 05 2012 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
I'm pretty sure it's a commonly established fact that teachers have suffered high levels of lay offs in the last few years. It's not true in every state of course, but on average, I think teachers are getting fired more often than hired. That's one of the main reasons I'm going to go teach English abroad for a few years after I finish my degree. Hopefully it'll turn around.
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#6 May 05 2012 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
catwho wrote:

What jobs have been starved out of existance?

Teachers. Firefighters. Police officers. Construction workers.


I'd love to see the source for the chart in your link and some sort of source showing that it's those groups that have suffered the job losses in the public sector. I know that liberal pundits and politicians always rattle off "teachers, police, and firefighters", whenever the issue of public sector employment comes up, but there area a whole lot of folks on the public payrolls who don't fall into those groups at all.


Your Google Fu is weak, grasshopper? Looking up "How many teachers have been laid off since 2008" in Google comes back with some quick results, for a variety of states. A New York Times article from 2010 said the number of teachers and other education workers laid off throughout the country was 58,000 in the prior two years. It also pointed out that it's not just the right's fault; much of the stimulus money that went to education went to teachers unions first and foremost, and they still laid off teachers. Other quick results showed hundreds of teachers laid off in North Carolina and California. Not sure why those came up most prominently. Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010:
Quote:
Pink slips were sent out to 22,000 teachers in California, 17,000 in Illinois, and 15,000 in New York. The jobs of 8,000 school employees in Michigan, 6,000 in New Jersey, and 5,000 in Oklahoma may also be axed.

These numbers are expected to increase in coming months. Officials in Illinois report that as many as 20,000 educators could lose their jobs in the state. In California, an additional 4,000 people may be put on notice.


Much as it's a fallacy to claim only the four groups mentioned are the ones affected, it's also just as dishonest to sidestep the issue and try to pretend these groups haven't been affected.
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#7 May 05 2012 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder why no one ever talks about underemployment...

Seems like these days the retail scene is filled with former NASA engineers and young men and women who grew up under the impression that spending four years in college might somehow land them a decent job.
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#8 May 05 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
What jobs have been starved out of existance?

Teachers. Firefighters. Police officers. Construction workers.

Careers that used to be respected among all sectors of American life, which are now considered pigs suckling at the government teat by too many on the right because they had the gall to form unions.

I'm not sure I understand your rant. Teachers and Firefighters have lost their jobs; bummer for them. Why exactly does that make you so upset?
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#9 May 05 2012 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
catwho wrote:
What jobs have been starved out of existance?

Teachers. Firefighters. Police officers. Construction workers.

Careers that used to be respected among all sectors of American life, which are now considered pigs suckling at the government teat by too many on the right because they had the gall to form unions.

I'm not sure I understand your rant.


Let's not start this rhetorical feigned incomprehension ******** again.
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#10 May 05 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Kuwoobie wrote:
I wonder why no one ever talks about underemployment...

Seems like these days the retail scene is filled with former NASA engineers and young men and women who grew up under the impression that spending four years in college might somehow land them a decent job.

Unemployment is pretty easy to measure: you want a job, but you don't have one. It's binary. Underemployment is much more subjective. You have a job, but you're "overqualified," or not making as much as you "should."

That said, having exited college right around the time of the (most recent) meltdown, I have several friends that are underemployed. One of my good friends has a bachelor's degree in Business Administrator, and worked for two years unloading trucks at a retail store because he simply couldn't find anything else.

Kavekk wrote:
Let's not start this rhetorical feigned incomprehension bullsh*t again.

"It's obvious!" Smiley: nod
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#11 May 05 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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The fact that so many teachers have been sacked also explains Romney's "92% of jobs lost under Obama belonged to women" - which is a misleading fact without the background story, but an actual fact nonetheless.
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#12 May 05 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't you find it a bit incongruous to blame Republicans for lost public sector jobs when the Democrats controlled both the Executive and Legislative branches of the federal government for 2 of the 3.5 years in question?

Plus, the public sector traditionally lags behind the private sector. I imagine those jobs will come back in the next 12-18 months, as well.
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#13 May 05 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
Don't you find it a bit incongruous to blame Republicans for lost public sector jobs when the Democrats controlled both the Executive and Legislative branches of the federal government for 2 of the 3.5 years in question

Since these are largely state or local level jobs, no. They actually held on as long as they did in part due to state payouts in the stimulus for shoring up state and local payrolls.

The big answer for the layoffs is lost revenue due to collapsed property taxes and general employment problems cascading on down the line. As you said, public has to follow private because, until there's an economic and tax base for hiring new people, it ain't gonna happen.

On a completely personal note, I've seen signs for optimism in my own field, including jobs coming back from being "on hold" since 2008 or 2009 because they've finally gotten bank financing and firms hiring additional architects or designers. It's not cause for me to break open the champagne but I think it's a positive sign of what direction things are going in.
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#14 May 05 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Let's not start this rhetorical feigned incomprehension bullsh*t again.

"It's obvious!" Smiley: nod


Don't even pretend that wasn't what you were doing. I can tell, Demea. I can tell when you lie to me, and it hurts me so bad.

I'm actually crying right now.
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#15 May 05 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Construction workers are public employees down there?

And since when is that a respected career?
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#16 May 05 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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#17 May 05 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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In certain northwestern states, alot of the loss of jobs has been on the engineering side of the house, and are the kinds of experiance you just don't get back after you throw it away. For example, the budget of a certian state rhymeing with "ashington" does not presently have any new capital improvement projects scheduled to enter design phase during the next biennium. Sure, there will be things built during that time, but given lead times for designing improvement and repair projects of a large nature, we can expect that there will be at least a 2 year period in the near future where there will also be no new construction jobs to replace existing jobs on current projects that are just finishing up at the state level. The county and city governments are looking to be in similar situations, which will likely lead to a huge glut in unemployment in that particular state right when the recovery is supposed to start kicking in. For road construction in particular, thats one of the few areas where you can make a case for benifits usually outweighing cost of the improvements both during construction and afterwards. Concrete and asphalt usually have to be purchased locally, they don't travel well. There are rules in place requireing materials be purchased from american sources. Decreased road conjestion improves local economy by allowing more population, allowing faster and less expensive shipping via trucks and making it more likely local shippers can bring in additional buisiness and expect to distribute it, which provides more import taxes to the local and federal economies, etc. Particularily on the main trade routes in from Canada along Interstate 5 and 90, there are major projects that need to be done to improve conjestion that need to be completed before the ports can afford to expand, and as the ports go, so does the state economy and to a certian degree, the federal economy. Instead, we are getting rid of that capability, which will end up working for more expensive consultant agencies. which will make future projects cost even more. One particular large project which i will not name, is currently using 70% consultants, and has spent roughly 40 million dollars on consultant costs over the last 10 years above and beyond what the same project would have cost had they used government workers on government salaries for the entire thing (and no, i can't provide specific cites for that info, but trust me, it is accurate). The argument being that consultants have the better workers, or can get things done quicker, or can be easily fired without having to deal with long term pensions, etc. But the whole thing really kind of stinks to me. it just seems like we are shooting ourselves economically in the foot in the name of prosperity,

It's frustrating.
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#18 May 05 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Construction workers are public employees down there?

Dept. of Transportation road crews, I guess. But, even then, the actual road-makin', bridge-buildin' parts are contracted.
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#19 May 05 2012 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Construction and road work seems to be booming up here. The Interstate highways seem to all be under construction, and they started doing the major work converting Rt. 17 into I-86 which includes altering the route several miles along its old path and building a few new bridges. Many abandoned big-box stores are being re-purposed (mostly for private medical practices) and there is a lot of land development as well.
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#20 May 05 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Construction workers are public employees down there?

Dept. of Transportation road crews, I guess. But, even then, the actual road-makin', bridge-buildin' parts are contracted.


Depends on the state. Usually the design is state workers, and the implementation of the larger structures is farmed out. Certain states do their own bridge work though. A few others actually maintain a fleet of paving vehicles for large scale paving ops.
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#21 May 06 2012 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here I thought this thread was about a certain clstr that shall not be named.

Oh, the memories.
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#22 May 07 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
In certain northwestern states, alot of the loss of jobs has been on the engineering side of the house, and are the kinds of experiance you just don't get back after you throw it away. For example, the budget of a certian state rhymeing with "ashington" does not presently have any new capital improvement projects scheduled to enter design phase during the next biennium....

...One particular large project which i will not name, is currently using 70% consultants, and has spent roughly 40 million dollars on consultant costs over the last 10 years above and beyond what the same project would have cost had they used government workers on government salaries for the entire thing (and no, i can't provide specific cites for that info, but trust me, it is accurate). The argument being that consultants have the better workers, or can get things done quicker, or can be easily fired without having to deal with long term pensions, etc. But the whole thing really kind of stinks to me. it just seems like we are shooting ourselves economically in the foot in the name of prosperity,

It's frustrating.


There's something special about that "ashington" state and it's ability to shoot itself in the foot. So which project are they failing on now?

I remember the monorail expansion debacle. Problems with funding the floating bridge replacement by the University? They ever get that Alaska Way thing figured out? I thought I heard they aren't coming up with the money for the interstate bridge down in Vancouver. I-5 needs help in so many places...
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#23 May 07 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
Yup, Oregon is pretty talented at doing that too. Smiley: nod
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#24 May 07 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll still take Oregon over Washington.

Oregon doesn't seem to have the same amount of misgivings about starting large projects for whatever reason. Of course they'll make questionable decisions like cutting back on road repair so they can build a light-rail expansion or whatever, but still at least they finish something every now and then.
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#25 May 07 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Your Google Fu is weak, grasshopper?


Googling is easy. Interpreting the results is not so simple.


Quote:
Looking up "How many teachers have been laid off since 2008" in Google comes back with some quick results, for a variety of states. A New York Times article from 2010 said the number of teachers and other education workers laid off throughout the country was 58,000 in the prior two years. It also pointed out that it's not just the right's fault; much of the stimulus money that went to education went to teachers unions first and foremost, and they still laid off teachers. Other quick results showed hundreds of teachers laid off in North Carolina and California. Not sure why those came up most prominently. Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010:
Quote:
Pink slips were sent out to 22,000 teachers in California, 17,000 in Illinois, and 15,000 in New York. The jobs of 8,000 school employees in Michigan, 6,000 in New Jersey, and 5,000 in Oklahoma may also be axed.

These numbers are expected to increase in coming months. Officials in Illinois report that as many as 20,000 educators could lose their jobs in the state. In California, an additional 4,000 people may be put on notice.


Much as it's a fallacy to claim only the four groups mentioned are the ones affected, it's also just as dishonest to sidestep the issue and try to pretend these groups haven't been affected.


Sure. But I'm not saying that they haven't been affected. I'm pointing out what appears to be a pretty slanted presentation of which groups have been most affected. And, some pretty questionable terminology which muddles the whole thing even more.

For example: Are you aware that only a small percentage of teachers who receive pink slips are actually laid off? Yet, the figures for pink slips handed out are often used interchangeably with "teachers laid off". You know, like you just did with your quote from google. They also count every teacher laid off, but don't account for whether they are rehired elsewhere in the district (or find another teaching job outside that district). This creates a perception that tons and tons of teachers are losing their jobs and are stuck on unemployment, when the reality is that the number is much smaller. Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right? If we counted every private sector person laid off, but didn't count for every new private sector job created, we'd have massive numbers as well, but they'd also be equally bogus.


My earlier post was designed to hopefully get someone to realize this little difference, but I guess that sailed right over some people's heads.

Edited, May 7th 2012 1:09pm by gbaji
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#26 May 07 2012 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Sure. But I'm not saying that they haven't been affected.

So we all agree that the net effect of the last several years is a loss of total teaching jobs, as well as public-sector jobs in general, right? Great. Nobody every really questioned this, so I'm not sure exactly why this is a point of contention.

Quote:
Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right?

But you just... right above this... and now you... Smiley: confused
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#27 May 07 2012 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Sure. But I'm not saying that they haven't been affected.

So we all agree that the net effect of the last several years is a loss of total teaching jobs...


Actually, I don't know that. The data I've seen doesn't explicitly state that there are fewer total K-12 teachers employed in the US today than there were in Jan 2009.

Quote:
... as well as public-sector jobs in general, right?


Not "as well as", the link in the OP simply says "public-sector jobs". I don't see a break down of which areas of the public sector have X jobs compared to Y jobs back when. Do you? So how about we not make assumptions about the data?

Quote:
Great. Nobody every really questioned this, so I'm not sure exactly why this is a point of contention.


The point of contention is when someone reads something that simply says "There are X number fewer public sector jobs today than in 2009", and then states that the jobs that were lost were teachers, firefighters, police, and construction workers (although that last one feels kinda tossed in as well). I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask for actual data regarding the total number of teachers, firefighters, and police employed today versus back then. Since that would be relevant in terms of determining whether the shrinking of the public sector (which I happen to agree with) is actually most affecting teachers and firefighters and cops, or whether it's most affecting mid level bureaucrats, superfluous civil servants, or represent cuts in wasteful projects which perhaps should not have existed in the first place.

Quote:
Quote:
Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right?

But you just... right above this... and now you... Smiley: confused


I said that they were "affected". But so has the private sector jobs. I know lots of people who lost their jobs and had to get another one, or who weren't able to transfer to a better paying position, or had their wages frozen, reduced bonuses, etc. The OP is not saying that no one in the private sector was "affected". It's saying that 4.2 million jobs were lost, but then 4.2 million new jobs were created and concludes that this means that the private sector has recovered.

So... If we focus just on say teachers, we could measure whether they are still being adversely affected using the same methodology, right? So let's just count the total number of teaching jobs back then and compare it to right now and see if they are higher, lower, or the same. Then we're measuring both groups by the same yardstick. If we fail to do this, then we're playing a bait and switch game and are being dishonest.


Do you honestly know what the total number of employed teachers in the US is right now compared to 3.5 years ago? If you don't, then you can't actually say that we've lost teacher jobs, can you? It certainly may be true, but absent numbers, forgive me for not just accepting all the people who say this, but who are also just assuming without looking at the numbers either. Certainly, it's ridiculous to measure one set by one method, and another by a different one, and then think we're making some kind of rational point.

Edited, May 7th 2012 3:01pm by gbaji
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#28 May 07 2012 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

For example: Are you aware that only a small percentage of teachers who receive pink slips are actually laid off? Yet, the figures for pink slips handed out are often used interchangeably with "teachers laid off". You know, like you just did with your quote from google. They also count every teacher laid off, but don't account for whether they are rehired elsewhere in the district (or find another teaching job outside that district). This creates a perception that tons and tons of teachers are losing their jobs and are stuck on unemployment, when the reality is that the number is much smaller. Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right? If we counted every private sector person laid off, but didn't count for every new private sector job created, we'd have massive numbers as well, but they'd also be equally bogus.


My earlier post was designed to hopefully get someone to realize this little difference, but I guess that sailed right over some people's heads.


Indeed. Perhaps it also sailed over your head that the 58,000 figure was those laid off, as the combined totals for pink slips in only five six states was greater than the 58,000 actually let go. Smiley: nod

Edit: six states, not five. My bad.

Edited, May 7th 2012 6:32pm by LockeColeMA
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#29 May 07 2012 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll still take Oregon over Washington.

Oregon doesn't seem to have the same amount of misgivings about starting large projects for whatever reason. Of course they'll make questionable decisions like cutting back on road repair so they can build a light-rail expansion or whatever, but still at least they finish something every now and then.



You obviously haven't driven from Corvallis to Newport in the last few years on Hwy 20 then. Maybe someday they'll get it right.
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#30 May 07 2012 at 7:10 PM Rating: Default
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LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:

For example: Are you aware that only a small percentage of teachers who receive pink slips are actually laid off? Yet, the figures for pink slips handed out are often used interchangeably with "teachers laid off". You know, like you just did with your quote from google. They also count every teacher laid off, but don't account for whether they are rehired elsewhere in the district (or find another teaching job outside that district). This creates a perception that tons and tons of teachers are losing their jobs and are stuck on unemployment, when the reality is that the number is much smaller. Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right? If we counted every private sector person laid off, but didn't count for every new private sector job created, we'd have massive numbers as well, but they'd also be equally bogus.


My earlier post was designed to hopefully get someone to realize this little difference, but I guess that sailed right over some people's heads.


Indeed. Perhaps it also sailed over your head that the 58,000 figure was those laid off, as the combined totals for pink slips in only five six states was greater than the 58,000 actually let go. Smiley: nod


Really? I'm the one pointing out the difference, so no, it didn't sail over my head. WTF?
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Bloomberg reports that almost two-thirds of private-sector job growth in the past five decades came with Democrats in the White House.

"The BGOV Barometer shows that since Democrat John F. Kennedy took office in January 1961, non-government payrolls in the U.S. swelled by almost 42 million jobs under Democrats, compared with 24 million for Republican presidents... Democrats hold the edge though they occupied the Oval Office for 23 years since Kennedy's inauguration, compared with 28 for the Republicans."
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#32 May 08 2012 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Political wire wrote:
Bloomberg reports that almost two-thirds of private-sector job growth in the past five decades came with Democrats in the White House.

"The BGOV Barometer shows that since Democrat John F. Kennedy took office in January 1961, non-government payrolls in the U.S. swelled by almost 42 million jobs under Democrats, compared with 24 million for Republican presidents... Democrats hold the edge though they occupied the Oval Office for 23 years since Kennedy's inauguration, compared with 28 for the Republicans."
The numbers they based this on are obviously flawed and purposely presented to make the GOP look bad by the radical left wing media.
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#33 May 08 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Political wire wrote:
Bloomberg reports that almost two-thirds of private-sector job growth in the past five decades came with Democrats in the White House.

"The BGOV Barometer shows that since Democrat John F. Kennedy took office in January 1961, non-government payrolls in the U.S. swelled by almost 42 million jobs under Democrats, compared with 24 million for Republican presidents... Democrats hold the edge though they occupied the Oval Office for 23 years since Kennedy's inauguration, compared with 28 for the Republicans."
The numbers they based this on are obviously flawed and purposely presented to make the GOP look bad by the radical left wing media.


I'd say creative math at the very least.
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#34 May 08 2012 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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We'd all be shocked if you didn't Smiley: laugh
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#35 May 08 2012 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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FalkononTitan wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I'll still take Oregon over Washington.

Oregon doesn't seem to have the same amount of misgivings about starting large projects for whatever reason. Of course they'll make questionable decisions like cutting back on road repair so they can build a light-rail expansion or whatever, but still at least they finish something every now and then.



You obviously haven't driven from Corvallis to Newport in the last few years on Hwy 20 then. Maybe someday they'll get it right.


Corvallis? Newport? Everyone knows no one in Multnomah county cares about the rest of the state. Smiley: schooled

Still will take it over N. Seattle roads though... *shiver*
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#36 May 08 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:

For example: Are you aware that only a small percentage of teachers who receive pink slips are actually laid off? Yet, the figures for pink slips handed out are often used interchangeably with "teachers laid off". You know, like you just did with your quote from google. They also count every teacher laid off, but don't account for whether they are rehired elsewhere in the district (or find another teaching job outside that district). This creates a perception that tons and tons of teachers are losing their jobs and are stuck on unemployment, when the reality is that the number is much smaller. Has the actual number of employed teachers decreased over the last 4-5 years? Given the context of the original post, this would seem relevant, right? If we counted every private sector person laid off, but didn't count for every new private sector job created, we'd have massive numbers as well, but they'd also be equally bogus.


My earlier post was designed to hopefully get someone to realize this little difference, but I guess that sailed right over some people's heads.


Indeed. Perhaps it also sailed over your head that the 58,000 figure was those laid off, as the combined totals for pink slips in only five six states was greater than the 58,000 actually let go. Smiley: nod


Really? I'm the one pointing out the difference, so no, it didn't sail over my head. WTF?


Not sure who, as Catwho was talking about people losing their jobs. It wouldn't be me, as I used specific numbers knowing full well that the the pinks slips from six states were higher than the 58k actually laid off; note though: most of those slips were sent out or going to be sent out in 2010; the 58k number was for 2008 and 2009, the two prior years. It's quite possible that even more were laid off since then.
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#37 May 08 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Looking up "How many teachers have been laid off since 2008" in Google comes back with some quick results, for a variety of states. A New York Times article from 2010 said the number of teachers and other education workers laid off throughout the country was 58,000 in the prior two years. It also pointed out that it's not just the right's fault; much of the stimulus money that went to education went to teachers unions first and foremost, and they still laid off teachers. Other quick results showed hundreds of teachers laid off in North Carolina and California. Not sure why those came up most prominently. Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010:
Quote:
Pink slips were sent out to 22,000 teachers in California, 17,000 in Illinois, and 15,000 in New York. The jobs of 8,000 school employees in Michigan, 6,000 in New Jersey, and 5,000 in Oklahoma may also be axed.

These numbers are expected to increase in coming months. Officials in Illinois report that as many as 20,000 educators could lose their jobs in the state. In California, an additional 4,000 people may be put on notice.


Much as it's a fallacy to claim only the four groups mentioned are the ones affected, it's also just as dishonest to sidestep the issue and try to pretend these groups haven't been affected.


LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Really? I'm the one pointing out the difference, so no, it didn't sail over my head. WTF?


Not sure who, as Catwho was talking about people losing their jobs. It wouldn't be me, as I used specific numbers knowing full well that the the pinks slips from six states were higher than the 58k actually laid off; note though: most of those slips were sent out or going to be sent out in 2010; the 58k number was for 2008 and 2009, the two prior years. It's quite possible that even more were laid off since then.



And yet, you prefaced those numbers with the statement that "Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010" right in the midst of a conversation about the number of teachers *actually* laid off. So either you didn't realize that receiving a pink slip and actually being laid off are not the same thing *or* you were being deliberately misleading with your response. The numbers you choose to quote are not "clearer numbers (of teacher layoffs) for 2010" as you claimed.

Edited, May 8th 2012 3:55pm by gbaji
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#38 May 08 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
Looking up "How many teachers have been laid off since 2008" in Google comes back with some quick results, for a variety of states. A New York Times article from 2010 said the number of teachers and other education workers laid off throughout the country was 58,000 in the prior two years. It also pointed out that it's not just the right's fault; much of the stimulus money that went to education went to teachers unions first and foremost, and they still laid off teachers. Other quick results showed hundreds of teachers laid off in North Carolina and California. Not sure why those came up most prominently. Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010:
Quote:
Pink slips were sent out to 22,000 teachers in California, 17,000 in Illinois, and 15,000 in New York. The jobs of 8,000 school employees in Michigan, 6,000 in New Jersey, and 5,000 in Oklahoma may also be axed.

These numbers are expected to increase in coming months. Officials in Illinois report that as many as 20,000 educators could lose their jobs in the state. In California, an additional 4,000 people may be put on notice.


Much as it's a fallacy to claim only the four groups mentioned are the ones affected, it's also just as dishonest to sidestep the issue and try to pretend these groups haven't been affected.


LockeColeMA wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Really? I'm the one pointing out the difference, so no, it didn't sail over my head. WTF?


Not sure who, as Catwho was talking about people losing their jobs. It wouldn't be me, as I used specific numbers knowing full well that the the pinks slips from six states were higher than the 58k actually laid off; note though: most of those slips were sent out or going to be sent out in 2010; the 58k number was for 2008 and 2009, the two prior years. It's quite possible that even more were laid off since then.



And yet, you prefaced those numbers with the statement that "Another article gave clearer numbers from 2010" right in the midst of a conversation about the number of teachers *actually* laid off. So either you didn't realize that receiving a pink slip and actually being laid off are not the same thing *or* you were being deliberately misleading with your response. The numbers you choose to quote are not "clearer numbers (of teacher layoffs) for 2010" as you claimed.

Edited, May 8th 2012 3:55pm by gbaji


Smiley: dubious

Or you misunderstood and made assumptions because I dared to challenge your implication that teachers aren't losing their jobs? Yeah, I like the obvious logical answer. Smiley: grin
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#39 May 08 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
Corvallis? What is this Corvallis you speak of? Everyone knows Eugene is the only college town in Oregon worth mentioning. Smiley: grin
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#40 May 08 2012 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Or you misunderstood and made assumptions because I dared to challenge your implication that teachers aren't losing their jobs?


By quoting some numbers that you now claim you knew all along didn't tell us anything about the actual number of teachers who lost their jobs? How daring of you!

Quote:
Yeah, I like the obvious logical answer. Smiley: grin


So do I. The obvious answer is that you either mistakenly thought those numbers challenged my implication or you knew that they didn't but posted them anyway in the hopes that other people might not figure it out.
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#41 May 09 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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#42 May 09 2012 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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This shit is what passes for drama these days? Jesus Christ.
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#43 May 09 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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You and your liberal war on religion. Smiley: oyvey
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#44 May 09 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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War, nothing. I'm praying to my Lord and Savior for some decent drama.
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#45 May 09 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
War, nothing. I'm praying to my Lord and Savior for some decent drama.


You want drama? Switch sides for a week and argue the conservative side of every discussion. That would cause some drama.

I'd say we could have Gbaji argue the liberal side, but he's already hard enough to understand when he's arguing for things he actually believes. My head is threatening to explode just thinking about him trying to argue the liberal side of anything.

Edited, May 9th 2012 10:55am by Bigdaddyjug
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#46 May 09 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'd say we could have Gbaji argue the liberal side,
That'd be a mess. We should get someone that can actually argue their own side before asking them to argue an opposing one.
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#47 May 09 2012 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'd say we could have Gbaji argue the liberal side,
That'd be a mess. We should get someone that can actually argue their own side before asking them to argue an opposing one.


Yeah, I know. Read the rest of my post.
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#48 May 09 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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No.
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#49 May 09 2012 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Corvallis? What is this Corvallis you speak of? Everyone knows Eugene is the only college town in Oregon worth mentioning. Smiley: grin


College... Smiley: oyvey

The important thing about Eugene is that it's a really long drive from anywhere.
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#50 May 09 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
You want drama? Switch sides for a week and argue the conservative side of every discussion. That would cause some drama.

Smash and I were going to do this once on a lark. Then we got lazy and didn't.
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#51 May 09 2012 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Corvallis? What is this Corvallis you speak of? Everyone knows Eugene is the only college town in Oregon worth mentioning. Smiley: grin


College... Smiley: oyvey

The important thing about Eugene is that it's a really long drive from anywhere.


It's not too far from the Bandon Dunes golf complex, which is the only thing in Oregon that matters to me.
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