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The Transience of ManhoodFollow

#152 May 08 2012 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.

Sure, she can move, but that attitude is going to give her a heart attack. Wait until her precious private spawn covers her house with *****. She'll probably have an aneurysm blame her husband's genes.
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#153 May 09 2012 at 6:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?



I agree with what Flea said in her response to you - that the poem underscores her point about manhood not being an automatic state - but that's not the point I was making. In fact I assume you agree with her observation.

My point is that Kipling's vision of manhood, and the path to it, is extremely limited and, as stated, not reserved for the XY set. There's nothing particularly manly about gambling away your family's future, no matter how stylishly insouciant you are about it. Being ready to take a risk is a great trait, within certain parameters; but it is not the only way to be a man, nor does it prove one's manliness.

I realize complexity doesn't fit the iambic pentameter doggerel format, but in general Kipling's world view was, shall we say, lacking in nuance even for a Victorian Englishman.
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#154 May 09 2012 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
My point is that Kipling's vision of manhood, and the path to it, is extremely limited and, as stated, not reserved for the XY set. There's nothing particularly manly about gambling away your family's future, no matter how stylishly insouciant you are about it. Being ready to take a risk is a great trait, within certain parameters; but it is not the only way to be a man, nor does it prove one's manliness.

I don't know that I agree that it is limited. I think your reading of it may be. To ascribe insouciance to the trait of taking your loss "like a man" belies a fundamental misunderstanding. The reading that pulls out the gamble to the exclusion of gathering one's self up again and charging boldly forward misses the point of that particular section, and the broader admonition.

The metaphors in his poem certainly aren't describing traits that are limited to a man. They are, of course, all things that would be as admirable in a woman. Nor do they set the width and breadth of Manhood as some sort of architectural drawing. They define a set of attributes of which possession, or demonstration, is likely to be indicative of a Man, someone most Men would be proud to call their friends and see their sons become.
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#155 May 09 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Atomicflea wrote:
At one point in life I was studying to be a counselor, and while I never finished that, human behavior has always intrigued me. After sitting through a rough few days in court with a lot of violence of all types, I flashed back to my Gender & Violence course. Two of the concepts that have resonated with me over the years are related to the concept of manhood, and its connection with violent behavior.

1. Manhood, unlike womanhood, is earned and not permanent. That is, a girl will inevitably become a woman, but a boy may not always be expected to become a man. This status can be withdrawn and withheld by others in his social group as punishment or threat.

2. The threat, implied or implicit, of withdrawing manhood is often enough by itself to precipitate violence.

This interests me not only because I have seen it play out, but because I am raising sons. How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned? Do you think it does? If you are a man, do you feel you earned yours, and how, if you feel comfortable sharing?


I'm trying to raise both my son and daughter equally, as a team. (less about the individual) and I encourage them to play with whatever floats their boat. While they were in preschool, Tyler would play dolls with the girls and rough & tumble with the bigger boys (the 5 year olds adored him) - everything was Tylers choice and he's thus far quite confident in his choices.

I tend to lean towards Rogers, in that, I believe our sons are good people and know whats right. I'm also a fan of Glasser, in that, our sons know they have choices. Our duty perhaps is to help them understand that all choices have consequences, and sometimes you will be faced with a bad choice and a worse choice. Also, from the Criminology side, I don't want to label my son because it will limit his choices.

Manhood feels like a label, as does womanhood. My children are people. I hope that they are people who contribute positively to their community. Right now, I can say that at 2 & 3 (they'll be 3 & 4 in August), they are better people, than I am at 35.

How do we avoid the labels? I think by placing more emphasis on their self confidence, it will in turn empower them to easily deflect anyones attempts to label them. Also, acknowledging that some boys enjoy being rough and tumble, thus finding an activity where they can focus that kind of energy into something positive.

On a side note, my husband and I are incredibly protective about who we expose our children to. This may not be an option for every parent, which is why I think a strong confidence, may help our boys from getting dragged into negativity.

You're doing the best that you can, but at the end of the day it will be our sons choice as to the kind of person that they want to be.


#156 May 09 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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niobia wrote:
Right now, I can say that at 2 & 3 (they'll be 3 & 4 in August), they are better people, than I am at 35.
You need to get on that, slacker. Smiley: lol

Obviously my kids will eventually decide the course of their lives. I don't subscribe to the idea that they are mine, rather more that I was entrusted to them as a guide and mentor to make them capable of taking care of themselves without me someday, to make them whole as separate beings. I think nurturing is a huge part of this. I think most adults would concur that you can overcome insecurity and trauma, but it's a whole lot of effort and for some, takes the course of a lifetime. A solid base in your own identity and permanence helps, which is all I'm talking about here.

This reminded me of one of my favorite stories about gender, unrelated. There was a researcher who was active in the areas of gender identity who had a son and resolved to raise him gender-neutral. By her own admission, this was much easier to do when he was alone in the house with her and her partner, and the kid had a ball, wore dresses and or pants and played with both Barbies and cars. So at three-fourish it's his first day of preschool and she sends him off with jeans and a t-shirt and many colorful barrettes in his hair (he picked this outfit out). When he gets to school, the little boys ask him WHY does he have barrettes in his hair, only GIRLS do that. The boy, carefully prepared by his egghead mom, responds that he is a boy no matter what because he has a pee-pee, which girls don't. One little boy responds on behalf of all gender-males:
"EVERYBODY has a pee-pee, silly, but only GIRLS wear barrettes!"
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#157 May 09 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
That's a good example of why you should teach your kids the scientific words for their genitals instead of silly cutesy names like pee-pee. The cutesy names can be gender neutral too, so it's not really that useful in that particular situation. What happened to the boy after that though? Do you know?
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#158 May 09 2012 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
"EVERYBODY has a pee-pee, silly, but only GIRLS wear barrettes!"
Some are just innies.
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#159 May 09 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
That's a good example of why you should teach your kids the scientific words for their genitals instead of silly cutesy names like pee-pee.


That kid in Kindergarten Cop, it's the only voice in my head right now...
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#160 May 09 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Obviously my kids will eventually decide the course of their lives. I don't subscribe to the idea that they are mine, rather more that I was entrusted to them as a guide and mentor to make them capable of taking care of themselves without me someday, to make them whole as separate beings.

Conversely, I see myself as holding the title and will sell them to the gypsies the first time I get an offer.

"It's okay, honey, Madam Fortuna is their guide and mentor now..."

Edited, May 9th 2012 3:04pm by Jophiel
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#161 May 09 2012 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
someproteinguy wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
That's a good example of why you should teach your kids the scientific words for their genitals instead of silly cutesy names like pee-pee.


That kid in Kindergarten Cop, it's the only voice in my head right now...


Exactly. Smiley: nod And if any of my kids' teachers have a problem with it, too **** bad. There is nothing wrong or improper about using the scientific terms for genitals.
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#162 May 09 2012 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Obviously my kids will eventually decide the course of their lives. I don't subscribe to the idea that they are mine, rather more that I was entrusted to them as a guide and mentor to make them capable of taking care of themselves without me someday, to make them whole as separate beings.

Conversely, I see myself as holding the title and will sell them to the gypsies the first time I get an offer.

"It's okay, honey, Madam Fortuna is their guide and mentor now..."

Checks and balances, dearest.
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#163 May 09 2012 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
That's a good example of why you should teach your kids the scientific words for their genitals instead of silly cutesy names like pee-pee. The cutesy names can be gender neutral too, so it's not really that useful in that particular situation. What happened to the boy after that though? Do you know?
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#164 May 09 2012 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned? Do you think it does?


No, it doesn't have to be earned as such. After years of studying sociology and psychology and the works of the great philosophers...I've found that the only thing that can be shown demonstrably, throughout history and across cultures, to be a true measurement of a man is the quality and quantity of body hair.

Nexa
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#165 May 09 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you can grow a pelt when all around you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you.....
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#166 May 09 2012 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nexa wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned? Do you think it does?


No, it doesn't have to be earned as such. After years of studying sociology and psychology and the works of the great philosophers...I've found that the only thing that can be shown demonstrably, throughout history and across cultures, to be a true measurement of a man is the quality and quantity of body hair.

Nexa
Smash, get off your wife's account.
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#167 May 09 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
Atomicflea wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
That's a good example of why you should teach your kids the scientific words for their genitals instead of silly cutesy names like pee-pee. The cutesy names can be gender neutral too, so it's not really that useful in that particular situation. What happened to the boy after that though? Do you know?
Smiley: oyveySmiley: deadhorse
You are killing teh lulz. They're dead now. I hope you're happy.


Sorry. =x
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#168 May 10 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
1. Manhood, unlike womanhood, is earned and not permanent. That is, a girl will inevitably become a woman, but a boy may not always be expected to become a man. This status can be withdrawn and withheld by others in his social group as punishment or threat.


They're apparently trying though.

Are you Mom enough?
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#169 May 10 2012 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I like that Time cover. That kid is like "Who the **** is this woman?"
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#170 May 10 2012 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:

**** no.

Reply

Edited, May 10th 2012 11:32am by Atomicflea
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#171 May 10 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
I really like that first comment in the reply.
Quote:
We cannot have a serious discussion about this until the Anti-Sears crowd drops the assertion that attachment parenting requires moms to stay at home. Attachment parenting is about what we do during the time we are with our children, not about employment status.


I'm not sure how I feel about co-sleeping, but I definitely plan on breast-feeding and using one of those baby slings when I have kids. Co-sleeping sounds like it would probably be a good thing for the baby, but parents need their alone time. Plus who says that to be a successful attachment parent, the mom has to stay home? The dad could just as easily stay home, or both could work and you just smother the little ****** when you're at home. Smiley: grin
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#172 May 10 2012 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I definitely plan on breast-feeding and using one of those baby slings when I have kids.


Those slings are simply awesome. Love them. The little one stays with you, and helps keep them calmer (and quieter as a bonus). Ours at least really liked it when you were moving around with them. The little rocking back and forth and being close and hearing the heartbeat stuff. At the same time it frees your hands so you can actually accomplish other things you need to do. Something which was hard enough with a little one in your arms, and not much easier if that something involved thinking while there was sad baby sounds coming from the other room.
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#173 May 10 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I like that Time cover. That kid is like "Who the **** is this woman?"

"I just came to collect for the paper!"
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#174 May 10 2012 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I definitely plan on breast-feeding and using one of those baby slings when I have kids.


Those slings are simply awesome. Love them. The little one stays with you, and helps keep them calmer (and quieter as a bonus). Ours at least really liked it when you were moving around with them. The little rocking back and forth and being close and hearing the heartbeat stuff. At the same time it frees your hands so you can actually accomplish other things you need to do. Something which was hard enough with a little one in your arms, and not much easier if that something involved thinking while there was sad baby sounds coming from the other room.

I thought the same. I tried to wear one repeatedly, and v. 2.0 hated it with a vengeance. Cried until I let him out and squirmed like a mad man. Nothing like kids to lay waste to your plans, I found.
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#175 May 10 2012 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:

I thought the same. I tried to wear one repeatedly, and v. 2.0 hated it with a vengeance. Cried until I let him out and squirmed like a mad man. Nothing like kids to lay waste to your plans, I found.


Smiley: lol

Aww very much so. Our oldest is starting to plan her own day now. So many discussions about the bouncy house being closed.
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#176 May 11 2012 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:

I thought the same. I tried to wear one repeatedly, and v. 2.0 hated it with a vengeance. Cried until I let him out and squirmed like a mad man. Nothing like kids to lay waste to your plans, I found.


Smiley: lol

Aww very much so. Our oldest is starting to plan her own day now. So many discussions about the bouncy house being closed.


I don't think mine would have stood (laid down?) for it. He didn't even like being swaddled. He was very energetic and kinetic almost straight from birth.

Edited, May 11th 2012 4:25pm by Bigdaddyjug
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