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The Transience of ManhoodFollow

#102Almalieque, Posted: May 06 2012 at 2:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think this says it best.
#103 May 06 2012 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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#104 May 07 2012 at 6:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.
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#105 May 07 2012 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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#106 May 07 2012 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.
That's simple. A man is as swift as a coursing river.


With all the force of a great typhoon.
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#107 May 07 2012 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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#108 May 07 2012 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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The very best secular definition I've ever read for Manhood is Rudyard Kipling's "If". Manhood is most definitely earned.

If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!
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#109 May 07 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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With all the strength of a raging fire.


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#110 May 07 2012 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

But enough talk... have at you!
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#111 May 07 2012 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man?


A man is what happens when you take a perfectly normal fetus and start @#%^ing with the hormone levels.
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#112 May 07 2012 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man?


A man is what happens when you take a perfectly normal fetus and start @#%^ing with the hormone levels.


But how many roads must it walk down?
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#113 May 07 2012 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

But enough talk... have at you!


Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!

Edited, May 7th 2012 1:13pm by Timelordwho
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#114 May 07 2012 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man?


A man is what happens when you take a perfectly normal fetus and start @#%^ing with the hormone levels.


But how many roads must it walk down?


Seven.
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#115 May 07 2012 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

But enough talk... have at you!


Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!


Perhaps the same could be said of all religions...
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#116 May 07 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

But enough talk... have at you!


Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!


Perhaps the same could be said of all religions...


Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

Just go straight to Pikko and feel hurt.
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#117 May 07 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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This interests me not only because I have seen it play out, but because I am raising sons. How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned?


Haven't read replies.

It has to be earned in most societies, certainly in ours. You're wrong in some ways about women, they have equally arbitrary, but different, status benchmarks. Part of that is obviously that naive young women are generally seen as charming and attractive by our society, while naive young men are seen as immature and non-desirable. For women, "womanhood" is really something that's earned much later in life. Let's say around 40 years old. When you're confused about how men could be so hung up on challenges to their masculinity, think about what you'd feel about a 40 year old single woman living with her 4 cats, with Robert Pattinson posters decorating her basement apartment. Then tell me she's as valid as a "Woman" as you or Nexa will be at that age.

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think about what you'd feel about a 40 year old single woman living with her 4 cats, with Robert Pattinson posters decorating her basement apartment.

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#119 May 07 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I don't think Anna wants me handing her phone number out willy-nilly.
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#120 May 07 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#121 May 07 2012 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Here come 30 pages of arguing about what a man is.


What is a man?


A man is what happens when you take a perfectly normal fetus and start @#%^ing with the hormone levels.


But how many roads must it walk down?


Ah my friend! Seek the blowing wind. There you will find the answer.
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#122 May 07 2012 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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I can't really speak to the idea of manliness, but I can speak to the idea of womanhood and wanting kids. I had always tOld myself that when I got married, I wanted to wait at least five years before having a kid. I never really examined whether or not I wanted this, I just assumed it would happen. So four years after I got married, I started the "let's talk about kids" discussion with my husband. I was on some medications and wanted to be off them for a while to make sure I would be ok getting pregnant. So I went off my Remicade and when a year went by we sat down to talk about it again. That was when my husband told me he wasn't sure he ever wanted kids.

After I stopped being irked that he waited so long to mention this fact, I told him I needed to do a little soul searching. I had to figure out if I wanted a kid or not. I consider the relationship between my husband and I to be pretty strong, and I was sure then, and am still sure now, that had I come back from that reflection and told him that having a kid was important to me, he would have gone along with it. But he wouldn't have wanted it. I even think that had we gone that route, he would've been a great father. But th more I thought about what it meant to have first a baby, then a toddler, then a teenager, and the fact that during at least the first 18 years of its life we would not be truly alone and able to do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted, I balked. I wanted to travel. I wanted to be free to walk out to dinner or a movie spontaneously and not have to scramble to find childcare or be forced to eat at a restaurant where I thought kids wouldn't disturb people and watch only G movies.

I like my freedom. I don't want to change dirty diapers, potty train a kid, and clean up after it for years an years. I know there is a great reward when your kid turns out awesome and all that, but I didn't think that was enough.

To this day, I still occasionally struggle with my decision. Not because I'm having doubts, but because I sometimes feel like I have somehow failed as a woman in a very fundamental way. What kind of woman doesn't want to hold her own baby and watch it grow into an adult? And it's not my friends who have kids that make me feel that way. Well, not directly. It's just something that I thought I always understood as a kid. Something that you see so often in our culture. The happy ending for a woman is almost always a kid. That's the goal. That's what they've really been searching for. Or, at the very least, the marriage that can bring them that goal. But for me, the goal is to be happy and secure. To do the things that make me happy. To take off to Europe or Japan or Australia. Or Hawaii. I don't want to be responsible for a kid. And I feel like, in our culture, that's strange and unwomanly.
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#123 May 07 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
I feel very similar Belkira. I feel pretty conflicted about the whole kid a lot of the times too. Part of me really wants to have children, the other part of me isn't sure if I'll ever want to give up the freedom I have now. Plus it's hard enough to get my boyfriend to talk about marriage, let alone having kids, lol. The last time we talked about it, when he came down to visit a few weeks back, he said that he just doesn't see the point. It's not that he doesn't love me, or doesn't want to commit to me, he just sees marriage as a pointless institution. In a lot of ways, I agree with him. But there's still this nagging part of me that wants it. I know at least part of it is because for me to be able to take him with me when I go teach in South Korea, we will have to be married. Otherwise, it'll be difficult if not impossible to get him over there as well, when he won't have the education needed to be able to teach. The other part is that I want to celebrate my relationship with him. I want to be able to tell the world that this man is my soulmate, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him. He wants that too, he's just concerned about what sort of influence both of our families are going to want to exert over our wedding. And I can certainly understand that. His family is extremely religious, and him and my mother have... issues. She doesn't think he's good enough for me, and she hasn't done a very good job of hiding that. Bah. Why do relationships have to be so damned complicated?

Oh, and I found this linked on Feministing yesterday. I thought it was an interesting take on how people in our society react to pregnancy and how they treat pregnant women.
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#124 May 07 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.
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#125 May 07 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sometimes it feels like everything will be a fight from this point forward, but I know that it will also be an honor, a privilege, an experience of sheer and near-constant joy.


Did I misread that? Smiley: dubious

Remind me to come back when the baby is about 4 months old to ask her how much near-constant joy she's feeling.
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#126 May 07 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


Hiow judgmental.

I think less of you because of this.
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#127 May 07 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.
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#128 May 07 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.
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#129 May 07 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.


An she is completely unable to change the subject...?

I'm not saying she doesn't have some good points. But if she doesn't want people touching her belly (I wouldn't either) the she can tell them to back off. If she doesn't want to talk about if she's breast feeding or not, she doesn't have to. While I can understand complaining about these things, I don't think it takes an entire article to expound upon.

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the penis I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.
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#130 May 07 2012 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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If she's not showing to the point anyone can tell yet I'm guessing she's really apprehensive about the whole thing. I'm willing to write off most of her tone and the whole "taking control" of whatever part of the situation is a normal reaction to facing a big situation with a lot of uncertainty and unknowns.
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#131 May 07 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.


An she is completely unable to change the subject...?

I'm not saying she doesn't have some good points. But if she doesn't want people touching her belly (I wouldn't either) the she can tell them to back off. If she doesn't want to talk about if she's breast feeding or not, she doesn't have to. While I can understand complaining about these things, I don't think it takes an entire article to expound upon.

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the penis I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.

She seems to have serious control issues. I think motherhood is going to be a scary wake-up call for her.
#132 May 07 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Has gbaji ever read a single study or poll that he didn't think was fundamentally flawed on every level?

Also, I'm pretty sure, as the board's reigning #1 rape apologist, his views on gender issues aren't worth much. He has about the same level of understanding of these things as some sort of autistic alien.



Edited, May 7th 2012 8:04pm by trickybeck
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#133 May 07 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Has gbaji ever read a single study or poll that he didn't think was fundamentally flawed on every level?

Are we excluding ones that tell him what he wanted to hear?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#134 May 08 2012 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
Belkira wrote:

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the penis I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.


The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.
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#135 May 08 2012 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the penis I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.


The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.


I've got no problem with the idea in general, but her explanation for it sounded self-absorbed.
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#136 May 08 2012 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?
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#137 May 08 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?
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#138 May 08 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.
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#139 May 08 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying to you. Either you genuinely don't understand what she's getting at, in which case you're thick as sh*t, or you're pretending not to, in which case @#%^ off.

There's nothing here that I don't understand.
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#140 May 08 2012 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying to you. Either you genuinely don't understand what she's getting at, in which case you're thick as sh*t, or you're pretending not to, in which case @#%^ off.

There's nothing here that I don't understand.

The poem explains to a son how to be a man. Not to a daughter, or a random 21st century internet chick trying to be clever. Unless he/she's not telling us something, she can't do all that stuff and, as such, has no valid point, hence my inquiry.

Now that we've addressed your specific strain of stupid why don't you get off my d:ck and take another stab at not starting to drool every time my balls come out.
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#141 May 08 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:

This interests me not only because I have seen it play out, but because I am raising sons. How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned?


Haven't read replies.

It has to be earned in most societies, certainly in ours. You're wrong in some ways about women, they have equally arbitrary, but different, status benchmarks. Part of that is obviously that naive young women are generally seen as charming and attractive by our society, while naive young men are seen as immature and non-desirable. For women, "womanhood" is really something that's earned much later in life. Let's say around 40 years old. When you're confused about how men could be so hung up on challenges to their masculinity, think about what you'd feel about a 40 year old single woman living with her 4 cats, with Robert Pattinson posters decorating her basement apartment. Then tell me she's as valid as a "Woman" as you or Nexa will be at that age.

I know older single chicks with cats. Their womanhood is not an issue to me, or to themselves. My elderly aunts are still women, despite not having children or husbands. I have seen women rejected as unnatural (ie, not women) for the child rearing thing, but not for the choice to be childless, more so for neglecting or harming a natural child. Even in this instance, they aren't perceived to be "girly girls" or "children" so much as monsters or freaks.

I realize that anything given can be perceived to be taken, so I suppose I want to raise sons with the same immutable perception of their manhood as women have of their womanhood.

I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.
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#142 May 08 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

Yep. Thank goodness.
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#143 May 08 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Default
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Atomicflea wrote:
I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.

Sexist though it may be, it doesn't apply to girls. Sure, it may be admirable for them to embody the same traits, but Manhood and woman-ness don't equate.
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#144 May 08 2012 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
She seems to have serious control issues. I think motherhood is going to be a scary wake-up call for her.

Holy sh*t this.

Also, I found that openly sharing information (while gently reminding people to back off when needed) opened up a whole new world of mothers eager to help and share tips and wisdom and encouragement. I never believe the women who go happily through 9 months and then poof I love my baby and wheeee so happy. Nothing will make you feel more inadequate than a squalling baby who doesn't give two sh*ts about your needs and depends on you for everything.

This right here tells me there's things going on that she should hash out with a therapist, hopefully before she gives birth:
Quote:
Part of this is political. If I’d gotten pregnant last year or next year I might feel differently. I might be dying for my co-workers to throw me a shower, but as it is now I feel fiercely protective of any scrap of privacy I can hang onto.

The right is lobbying against my reproductive freedoms in all forms, at all levels, in every way they can. Some days it seems that every news article I read is an attack. I would be lying if I said it wasn’t affecting my self-worth. What’s wrong with me, I wonder, that I can’t be trusted with my own freedom?


Quote:
On voting day, I cry. I tell Devan I think I might be having a panic attack. I tell him that if it passes, we will have to move. That I will have to leave my fellowship. That I can’t live in a place that would do this, where the people think these things, where my autonomy means so little.

“We’ll go,” he says. “If it passes. We’ll go.”


Wow.

Edited, May 8th 2012 1:30pm by Atomicflea
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#145 May 08 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.

Sexist though it may be, it doesn't apply to girls. Sure, it may be admirable for them to embody the same traits, but Manhood and woman-ness don't equate.
Thank you for so beautifully illustrating my OP. You have to earn these while I just grew gracefully into them. You can fail at these, while I cannot. I enjoy being a girl!



Except for periods. @#%^ those.
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#146 May 08 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.


Giving her family name to HER child? That's exactly my point. It's not just her kid. Far be it from me to judge what a married couple has decided to about THEIR child's name, but I seriously got tired of the tone being that this spawn and the pregnancy involves only her and her husband doesn't seem to matter. I don't really care if they have agreed to give the kid only her name, but she should be less of a douche about the whole thing.


Edited, May 8th 2012 2:52pm by Belkira
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#147 May 08 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.
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#148 May 08 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.


I actually do agree with this. I can't tell you how excited I was to move away from the political climate of Tennessee to a place that mostly shares my social issues.
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#149 May 08 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.

Sure, she can move, but that attitude is going to give her a heart attack. Wait until her precious private spawn covers her house with feces. She'll probably have an aneurysm.
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#150 May 08 2012 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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#151 May 08 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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I read the article. That was a mistake. Or not, I guess. It is further validation that the reason for the decline of the species isn't what Bill Maher would have us believe.
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