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The Transience of ManhoodFollow

#52 May 03 2012 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
At any time I've felt my masculinity "threatened," I have, oddly enough, remembered a line from a Ray Stevens song I heard when I was a kid. I won't go into details, but it involves the phrase "I'm secure in my manhood" when confronted with an emasculating situation or an association with homosexuality. I know who I am, and to me it doesn't matter how manly others think I am.


No offence, but that's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard.


Oh snap. Ash, better start singing!
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#53 May 03 2012 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I think the whole "being a man" thing becomes more and more prevalent the tighter your social circle is, and the more you depend on your peers for advancement or prestige. This fits well with a prison or a gang. Basically manliness is just a measuring stick for how well you belong, it's the accepted metric. In looser social circles, belonging becomes less of a necessity and more of a choice and so how you define yourself rests more with you and less with others.

I'm not sure what would be a similar metric for women in the same scenario though.


I'm with Xsarus on this one. Since I've been out of school I've never felt much of a need to "prove I'm a man." Even in college I didn't feel the need; closest was maybe high school, but even then I was arguably one of the "manliest" in my social group without any violence. On the flip side, one of my best friends is 26 now and we actually had a big talk about this recently; namely that he doesn't feel like he's "a man" yet but he's not sure what needs to happen for him to get that feeling. He thinks his dad is a terrible example of manliness because he doesn't have much drive and always defers to his mom.

I told him I'm not sure how he can feel "like a man," but maybe moving out of his parents' house, getting a girlfriend, and securing a full-time job would be a good start Smiley: lol

Yeah it's never been an issue for me. At some point I kinda realized "oh, I'm an adult now," but there was never a defining moment of "now I'm a MAN!" I think the closest realization was while reading a police report that a 19 year old "man" had done something and thinking to myself, "Sh*t, I'm years older than that kid. I guess I am a man now!"
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#54 May 03 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise of the question. I think that the author you're referencing is way too caught up on some pretty selective labeling of what makes one a "man" or a "woman". IMO, the association to gender is a stretch. What's being called "manliness" is really just control and both men and women engage in it. I'm frankly surprised that someone would study prison and gang populations looking for these traits and then somehow conclude that it has anything at all to do with ones sex.

Hint: Women gangs are arguably more violent than men. Women in prison have just as much violence and pecking order **** going on. It looks to me like the author was trying to invent a difference in sexual behavior and managed to selectively bias him/herself out of making any sort of sensible point at all. I'd chuck the book, forget about what was in it, and move on with your life.
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#55 May 03 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm not sure I agree ...

Stop the presses! Smiley: rolleyes
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#56 May 03 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
I think the whole "being a man" thing becomes more and more prevalent the tighter your social circle is, and the more you depend on your peers for advancement or prestige. This fits well with a prison or a gang. Basically manliness is just a measuring stick for how well you belong, it's the accepted metric. In looser social circles, belonging becomes less of a necessity and more of a choice and so how you define yourself rests more with you and less with others.

I'm not sure what would be a similar metric for women in the same scenario though.


I'm with Xsarus on this one. Since I've been out of school I've never felt much of a need to "prove I'm a man." Even in college I didn't feel the need; closest was maybe high school, but even then I was arguably one of the "manliest" in my social group without any violence. On the flip side, one of my best friends is 26 now and we actually had a big talk about this recently; namely that he doesn't feel like he's "a man" yet but he's not sure what needs to happen for him to get that feeling. He thinks his dad is a terrible example of manliness because he doesn't have much drive and always defers to his mom.

I told him I'm not sure how he can feel "like a man," but maybe moving out of his parents' house, getting a girlfriend, and securing a full-time job would be a good start Smiley: lol

Yeah it's never been an issue for me. At some point I kinda realized "oh, I'm an adult now," but there was never a defining moment of "now I'm a MAN!" I think the closest realization was while reading a police report that a 19 year old "man" had done something and thinking to myself, "Sh*t, I'm years older than that kid. I guess I am a man now!"
I spend a lot of time thinking about adulthood. I'm 29 now, and I still don't feel like an adult. I feel plenty masculine(though I'm also probably one of the girliest people I know), but that reverence I had for adults as a kid seems to be making it difficult to see myself as one of them.
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#57 May 03 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not sure I agree ...

Stop the presses! Smiley: rolleyes


Yeah, did you expect anything else? Smiley: tongue
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#58 May 03 2012 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Demea wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not sure I agree ...

Stop the presses! Smiley: rolleyes


Yeah, did you expect anything else? Smiley: tongue


I'm still hoping for the discussion to degrade into a cat-fighting debate. Involving jello and bikinis perhaps?
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#59 May 03 2012 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Demea wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not sure I agree ...

Stop the presses! Smiley: rolleyes


Yeah, did you expect anything else? Smiley: tongue


I'm still hoping for the discussion to degrade into a cat-fighting debate. Involving jello and bikinis perhaps?


I was thinking "black Friday shopping" as a counter to the idea that only men's status requires regular use of violence to create/maintain, but I can absolutely get behind the jello fight thing too!
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#60 May 03 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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#61 May 03 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
I feel the same way Poldy. I'm 28 and I don't feel like an adult most of the time. Living with my parents at the moment probably doesn't help that much, but even before that, I didn't really feel like an adult. I've had a few friends tell me that they didn't really feel like an adult until they started having kids.
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#62 May 03 2012 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I sit alone with my giant penis. The **** reaffirms my manhood and the solitude means no peer groups can socially emasculate me.

I've got it all figured out.



You mean Flea, right?

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#63 May 03 2012 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I sit alone with my giant penis. The **** reaffirms my manhood and the solitude means no peer groups can socially emasculate me.

I've got it all figured out.


You mean Flea, right?

It's impossible to emasculate him when I'm around. Smiley: lol
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#64 May 03 2012 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Different social structures.

Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.

Men are more like individuals that co-operate not because we need to but because it benefits us to do so, strength in numbers. "Manhood" is all about how much control one has over his immediate environment. Men are hunters, as a matter of survival we need to be able to control a situation while co-operating with others that are also attempting to control the situation. Manhood = control, control over emotions, decisions, environments.

When your manhood is threatened it's really a threat to your control and since the bulk of a man's control comes from physical superiority violence is typically the most immediate answer. You general "feel" like a man when you gain a measure of control over your life and surroundings.

We no longer have to hunt for survival so over the centuries we've tamed a bit and that will continue but the instinct of "Must be powerful" is still there in varying degrees the same as "Must be a good mother" is there for women and determines how they view other women.
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#65 May 03 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.


I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by this, but on the face of it, you're dead wrong.

Men cooperate and women compete? What are you smoking?
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#66 May 03 2012 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.


I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by this, but on the face of it, you're dead wrong.

Men cooperate and women compete? What are you smoking?


This kind of arguing is just what I'd expect from two women.
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#67 May 03 2012 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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It's not a concept I think too much about or have much stock. I've always been somewhat youngish looking--to where I could pass for a high school student today--so I've never physically looked extremely post-pubescent, and also consequently not often been placed in that social role.

I think middle-school crushed any reverence I might have developed for the idea of manliness. Like most horny young boys, I wanted to be incredibly attractive to the girls in my class. I thought the key to this was exercising religiously, which I did between 5th and 7th grade. So I was in excellent shape and thought I was making progress towards the girls I like, when one of them gets a boyfriend dweeb who looks even more like a kid than I do. At the time I could imagine how I had failed. I thought I was superior both physically and academically, and yet it didn't matter. HE had beaten me to what I wanted most. And this wouldn't be so bad, except that about a year later it happened again with a different girl and a different guy. Being what I thought was more manly than they were didn't get me any results, and I had worked so hard. After I lost most of my motivation towards physical fitness. Thinking back, what I was doing probably was working, but it was offset by having a fairly repelling personality.

I find Lolgaxe's thoughts on the subject a little strange. While I think the definiton of manliness is highly arbitrary, I believe most people would consider doing things for your family to be a part of it. Watching MLP with your daughter is manly. That you would do so even without her there, not so much.

Even then, I think many people would define it inclusively rather than exclusively. That is, having childish hobbies hobbies doesn't take anything away from your manliness, so long as you get all the manly stuff done.
#68 May 03 2012 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I've had a few friends tell me that they didn't really feel like an adult until they started having kids.
I have a feeling that would be the same for me, after the first few years of panic at being a parent subsides.
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#69 May 03 2012 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
Quote:
Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.


I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by this, but on the face of it, you're dead wrong.

Men cooperate and women compete? What are you smoking?


I think I understand what he's trying to say. I don't really understand what he means by men cooperate, but as far as women competing, I'd say he's pretty accurate. Not all of us are like this of course, but a lot of women are brought up to think that their most important goal in life is to get a man. So subconsciously, these women view all other women as competition, even their so called friends. That's why you get some women who steal their friend's man, or why they talk **** about each other, start drama, etc. This is a large part of why I don't have that many female friends, or I didn't used to anyways. Now that I know more nerdy girls that have the same general view on friendship that I do, it's cool.

I feel like men suffer from this sort of competition quite a bit too though. Not nearly to the extent that women do, at least in terms of finding a "mate" but it's definitely still there.
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#70 May 04 2012 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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I think I understand what he's trying to say.


Ah, fuck. I thought Samira was replying to Atomicflea.

Well, there goes my joke. I hope you're all fucking proud of yourselves.
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#71 May 04 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
So subconsciously, these women view all other women as competition, even their so called friends. That's why you get some women who steal their friend's man, or why they talk sh*t about each other, start drama, etc. This is a large part of why I don't have that many female friends, or I didn't used to anyways.

Stereotypes aside, guys do all these things as well. Frequently.
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#72 May 04 2012 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
I find Lolgaxe's thoughts on the subject a little strange. While I think the definiton of manliness is highly arbitrary, I believe most people would consider doing things for your family to be a part of it. Watching MLP with your daughter is manly.
Sure, most people would say it from the safe confines from the internet, with how arbitrary the definition is not many guys would miss the opportunity to mock their friend over it.
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#73 May 04 2012 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.


I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by this, but on the face of it, you're dead wrong.

Men cooperate and women compete? What are you smoking?


This kind of arguing is just what I'd expect from two women.


PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
Women are more of a collective with each individual jockeying for position on an ongoing basis, their relationships are more fluid because they're a convenience not a necessity.


I haven't the foggiest idea what you mean by this, but on the face of it, you're dead wrong.

Men cooperate and women compete? What are you smoking?


I think I understand what he's trying to say. I don't really understand what he means by men cooperate, but as far as women competing, I'd say he's pretty accurate. Not all of us are like this of course, but a lot of women are brought up to think that their most important goal in life is to get a man. So subconsciously, these women view all other women as competition, even their so called friends. That's why you get some women who steal their friend's man, or why they talk sh*t about each other, start drama, etc. This is a large part of why I don't have that many female friends, or I didn't used to anyways. Now that I know more nerdy girls that have the same general view on friendship that I do, it's cool.

I feel like men suffer from this sort of competition quite a bit too though. Not nearly to the extent that women do, at least in terms of finding a "mate" but it's definitely still there.

I guessed Yodabunny was a dude, but if she's a chick, color me surprised. I haven't encountered the behavior you speak of since high school. The vast majority of the women I know are all about support and encouragement, but maybe that's because on the far side of thirty, I could care less about trite **** and tend to surround myself with like-minded folk. The female behavior you both speak of is pretty foreign to me, and I fail to see where it relates to the expression of anger. Because we yank each other's hair out in baby pools filled with jello because someone took our man?

Yeahhh.....
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#74 May 04 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
I find Lolgaxe's thoughts on the subject a little strange. While I think the definiton of manliness is highly arbitrary, I believe most people would consider doing things for your family to be a part of it. Watching MLP with your daughter is manly.
Sure, most people would say it from the safe confines from the internet, with how arbitrary the definition is not many guys would miss the opportunity to mock their friend over it.
Well, probably. But I mean, not many guys would miss the opportunity to mock their friends over just about anything.
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#75 May 04 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
The vast majority of the women I know are all about support and encouragement, but maybe that's because on the far side of thirty, I could care less about trite bullsh*t and tend to surround myself with like-minded folk.


Well it may just be my experience, but I don't think many guys are really as ruthless as they once were for similar reasons. I mean we've kind of gotten through that high hormone, high energy phase, and were on to raising families, having careers etc. Do we still tease a little from time to time? Well sure, but I really don't remember the last time there was malice there. One of those young male things you know?

Atomicflea wrote:
Because we yank each other's hair out in baby pools filled with jello because someone took our man?

Yeahhh.....


Why must you squash my dreams? Smiley: frown
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#76 May 04 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Well it may just be my experience, but I don't think many guys are really as ruthless as they once were for similar reasons. I mean we've kind of gotten through that high hormone, high energy phase, and were on to raising families, having careers etc. Do we still tease a little from time to time? Well sure, but I really don't remember the last time there was malice there. One of those young male things you know?
It's not the malice, it's whether or not it would most likely trigger violence that I was interested in. The behavior stated seemed more rooted in fantasy than reality to me, but who knows, maybe a place exists where it's the norm to throw down over a guy who is interested in banging another chick besides you. /shrug

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Why must you squash my dreams? Smiley: frown
I have a feeling the silicone in your dreams would be hard to quash.
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#77 May 04 2012 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Why must you squash my dreams? Smiley: frown
I have a feeling the silicone in your dreams would be hard to quash.

Nah, no silicone, those things are yucky.


Edited, May 4th 2012 8:23am by someproteinguy
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#78 May 04 2012 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Silicone just don't jiggle well. Smiley: frown

Edited, May 4th 2012 11:36am by lolgaxe
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#79 May 04 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Men compete as well, but men tend to compete outside of their social group while women compete inside their social group. So male competition tends to be more forceful and final since they generally don't have to makeup with the people they're competing with. Men conform for the sake of cooperation, maintaining the "man card" to reduce conflict within their social group and ensure unit cohesion when it's needed. Keep in mind I'm not talking about playing football with your buddies here, that's just practice for the real competition.

Women compete more within their own social circle, they tend to be less cohesive as a whole but have very tight but transient relationships with sections of their social circle. Women cooperate for the sake of conformity, supporting each other so everyone can have the same lifestyle.

Very different outlooks, both of which are geared to survival in traditional roles (male = hunter, female = homemaker). Neither is better than the other until you apply them to role specific tasks pre-modern civilization. We may no longer define these roles by gender as a general rule but it takes time for instincts to change and traditions to dissipate so I don't expect the generally applicable stereotypes to change for quite some time. Men will be subjects to their "Manhood" for many centuries to come and women will have to play politics with their friends for the foreseeable future.

Age, wisdom, social advances all temper this, which is partially why older women have fewer conflicts and older men have fewer friends and why everyone refers to high school when talking about drama in their lives. Maturity is really just our ability to override instinct and some people are better at it than others.
#80 May 04 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't agree with that. I've seen groups of men in the professional world who commonly rip on whoever is absent from their circle at that time. Then, when that guy gets there and another guy is absent, they all rip on him. As long as you're there, it's all jokes and happiness; once you're out of the room, it's all about what a fucking **** you are. Not much better than your average high school cheerleader coven.
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#81 May 04 2012 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't agree with that. I've seen groups of men in the professional world who commonly rip on whoever is absent from their circle at that time. Then, when that guy gets there and another guy is absent, they all rip on him. As long as you're there, it's all jokes and happiness; once you're out of the room, it's all about what a fucking **** you are. Not much better than your average high school cheerleader coven.


Perhaps, but then those groups are not the chosen social groups of those individuals (unless they happen to be friends outside of work) which puts them firmly in the "competing with outside parties" role. I personally find the opposite in my work environment, this is an office environment with about a 50/50 male/female split. The women do this, but the men tend to only communicate with or about each other in regards to getting sh*t done or avoiding an obstacle which admittedly CAN be another person but it's typically the same retards we complain about rather than being driven by the convenience of absence.

If I have a problem with a friend I tell him he's being an asshole, I don't go to another friend and **** about him to try and sway social favour. It's not a competition it's and observation and advisement.

Edited, May 4th 2012 12:36pm by Yodabunny
#82 May 04 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, I'm not in the mood to get too deep into it (and you don't know the same people so its sort of unfair). I just really disagree based on personal observation.
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#83 May 04 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eh, I'm not in the mood to get too deep into it (and you don't know the same people so its sort of unfair). I just really disagree based on personal observation.


Fair enough. Agreed to disagree then Smiley: smile.
#84 May 04 2012 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
What the **** is this conciliatory **** Smiley: disappointed
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#85 May 04 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What the @#%^ is this conciliatory bullsh*t??!? Smiley: disappointed
Girly speak, if you ask me.
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#86 May 04 2012 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
What the @#%^ is this conciliatory bullsh*t??!? Smiley: disappointed
Girly speak, if you ask me.


Why you attack my man card?
#87 May 04 2012 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
There are certain "types" of people who still engage in that sort of behavior after high school. It really depends on the individual. Hell, my friends in high school didn't even do that **** to each other, but I did observe it quite a bit in other circles.

Then again, maybe I've just watched too much TV and/or movies. I see that kind of **** all the time in mainstream TV and movies. Especially the whole "My man cheated on me! That **** I'll kill her!" attitude. That's always infuriated me. Your man cheats on you, so you get mad at the other woman? That's just stupid. Maybe she didn't know about you? Get mad at HIM, he's the one who actually did something wrong.
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#88 May 04 2012 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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#92 May 04 2012 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
someproteinguy wrote:
Everyone gets older but we don't all grow up?

I'm really trying hard not to grow up, but people keep telling me I am :(
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#93 May 04 2012 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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So here I am,
growing older all the time,
looking older all the time,
feeling younger in my mind.
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#94 May 04 2012 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
I still look like I'm 16, so I figure that gives me a good excuse to not grow up. I'm basing that on what other people have said to me btw, I don't think I look like I'm 16.
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#95 May 04 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Men compete as well, but men tend to compete outside of their social group while women compete inside their social group. So male competition tends to be more forceful and final since they generally don't have to makeup with the people they're competing with. Men conform for the sake of cooperation, maintaining the "man card" to reduce conflict within their social group and ensure unit cohesion when it's needed. Keep in mind I'm not talking about playing football with your buddies here, that's just practice for the real competition.

Women compete more within their own social circle, they tend to be less cohesive as a whole but have very tight but transient relationships with sections of their social circle. Women cooperate for the sake of conformity, supporting each other so everyone can have the same lifestyle.

Very different outlooks, both of which are geared to survival in traditional roles (male = hunter, female = homemaker). Neither is better than the other until you apply them to role specific tasks pre-modern civilization. We may no longer define these roles by gender as a general rule but it takes time for instincts to change and traditions to dissipate so I don't expect the generally applicable stereotypes to change for quite some time. Men will be subjects to their "Manhood" for many centuries to come and women will have to play politics with their friends for the foreseeable future.

Age, wisdom, social advances all temper this, which is partially why older women have fewer conflicts and older men have fewer friends and why everyone refers to high school when talking about drama in their lives. Maturity is really just our ability to override instinct and some people are better at it than others.
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#96 May 04 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Everyone gets older but we don't all grow up?
A social worker friend of mine brought this up just the other day, commenting that her parents were from the Mad Men generation, that they worked and raised kids and pretty much were "grown up" 24/7. She and her husband were having a Star Wars marathon and getting ready to game a little later and she realized her parents never did anything like that, so seemingly juvenile. It was thought-provoking. I certainly feel like my marriage is much less serious (yet somehow more solid) than my parents'.
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#97 May 04 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I've seen groups of men in the professional world who commonly rip on whoever is absent from their circle at that time.

Whoever is absent? Sounds like women. I was going to make the same response to Lolgaxe, that guys pretty much rip on each other merely because an opportunity presents itself. However, I don't know many guys who bother trying to do it behind someone's back. All of my friends rip on each other face to face, because it's funnier when the victim is there.
#98 May 04 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know it sounds like women. That was sort of the point.
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#99 May 04 2012 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Does your wife know you've been hanging out with a bunch of strange women?
#100 May 04 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#101 May 05 2012 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Este, es o se hace?
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