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The Transience of ManhoodFollow

#127 May 07 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.
#128 May 07 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.
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#129 May 07 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.


An she is completely unable to change the subject...?

I'm not saying she doesn't have some good points. But if she doesn't want people touching her belly (I wouldn't either) the she can tell them to back off. If she doesn't want to talk about if she's breast feeding or not, she doesn't have to. While I can understand complaining about these things, I don't think it takes an entire article to expound upon.

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the ***** I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.
#130 May 07 2012 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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If she's not showing to the point anyone can tell yet I'm guessing she's really apprehensive about the whole thing. I'm willing to write off most of her tone and the whole "taking control" of whatever part of the situation is a normal reaction to facing a big situation with a lot of uncertainty and unknowns.
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#131 May 07 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I can't help but think of the woman in that article as being anything other than whiny and neurotic. And also a bit selfish when it comes to her husband.

Maybe I really am a traitor to my gender.


I agree that she's being selfish in regards to her husband, but I get where she's coming from. From what I've seen with my friends, once you announce that you're pregnant, it seems to be all anyone ever wants to talk about with you. I don't blame her for wanting to put that off as long as possible.


An she is completely unable to change the subject...?

I'm not saying she doesn't have some good points. But if she doesn't want people touching her belly (I wouldn't either) the she can tell them to back off. If she doesn't want to talk about if she's breast feeding or not, she doesn't have to. While I can understand complaining about these things, I don't think it takes an entire article to expound upon.

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the ***** I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.

She seems to have serious control issues. I think motherhood is going to be a scary wake-up call for her.
#132 May 07 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Has gbaji ever read a single study or poll that he didn't think was fundamentally flawed on every level?

Also, I'm pretty sure, as the board's reigning #1 rape apologist, his views on gender issues aren't worth much. He has about the same level of understanding of these things as some sort of autistic alien.



Edited, May 7th 2012 8:04pm by trickybeck
#133 May 07 2012 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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trickybeck wrote:
Has gbaji ever read a single study or poll that he didn't think was fundamentally flawed on every level?

Are we excluding ones that tell him what he wanted to hear?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#134 May 08 2012 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
Belkira wrote:

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the ***** I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.


The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.
#135 May 08 2012 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Belkira wrote:

And the whole "I am giving MY child MY last name because it's MY child and MY family name is the one that I care about carrying on and it's MY decision whether or not the ***** I slept with tells people about MY child" schtick really puts me off on almost anything she has to say. So it's possible I'm being a little too dismissive of other points.


The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.


I've got no problem with the idea in general, but her explanation for it sounded self-absorbed.
#136 May 08 2012 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?
#137 May 08 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?
#138 May 08 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.
#139 May 08 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying to you. Either you genuinely don't understand what she's getting at, in which case you're thick as ****, or you're pretending not to, in which case **** off.

There's nothing here that I don't understand.
#140 May 08 2012 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

You're not a son, either. What's your point?


Really?

Why don't you let me know exactly what's unclear to you, so I can tailor my response to your specific strain of stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying to you. Either you genuinely don't understand what she's getting at, in which case you're thick as sh*t, or you're pretending not to, in which case @#%^ off.

There's nothing here that I don't understand.

The poem explains to a son how to be a man. Not to a daughter, or a random 21st century internet chick trying to be clever. Unless he/she's not telling us something, she can't do all that stuff and, as such, has no valid point, hence my inquiry.

Now that we've addressed your specific strain of stupid why don't you get off my d:ck and take another stab at not starting to drool every time my balls come out.
#141 May 08 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:

This interests me not only because I have seen it play out, but because I am raising sons. How do you communicate that their manhood does not have to be earned?


Haven't read replies.

It has to be earned in most societies, certainly in ours. You're wrong in some ways about women, they have equally arbitrary, but different, status benchmarks. Part of that is obviously that naive young women are generally seen as charming and attractive by our society, while naive young men are seen as immature and non-desirable. For women, "womanhood" is really something that's earned much later in life. Let's say around 40 years old. When you're confused about how men could be so hung up on challenges to their masculinity, think about what you'd feel about a 40 year old single woman living with her 4 cats, with Robert Pattinson posters decorating her basement apartment. Then tell me she's as valid as a "Woman" as you or Nexa will be at that age.

I know older single chicks with cats. Their womanhood is not an issue to me, or to themselves. My elderly aunts are still women, despite not having children or husbands. I have seen women rejected as unnatural (ie, not women) for the child rearing thing, but not for the choice to be childless, more so for neglecting or harming a natural child. Even in this instance, they aren't perceived to be "girly girls" or "children" so much as monsters or freaks.

I realize that anything given can be perceived to be taken, so I suppose I want to raise sons with the same immutable perception of their manhood as women have of their womanhood.

I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.
#142 May 08 2012 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
@Moebius - here's the thing. I can do all that stuff - have done all that stuff, in fact. I'm not a man.

Yep. Thank goodness.
#143 May 08 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Default
Atomicflea wrote:
I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.

Sexist though it may be, it doesn't apply to girls. Sure, it may be admirable for them to embody the same traits, but Manhood and woman-ness don't equate.
#144 May 08 2012 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
She seems to have serious control issues. I think motherhood is going to be a scary wake-up call for her.

Holy sh*t this.

Also, I found that openly sharing information (while gently reminding people to back off when needed) opened up a whole new world of mothers eager to help and share tips and wisdom and encouragement. I never believe the women who go happily through 9 months and then poof I love my baby and wheeee so happy. Nothing will make you feel more inadequate than a squalling baby who doesn't give two sh*ts about your needs and depends on you for everything.

This right here tells me there's things going on that she should hash out with a therapist, hopefully before she gives birth:
Quote:
Part of this is political. If I’d gotten pregnant last year or next year I might feel differently. I might be dying for my co-workers to throw me a shower, but as it is now I feel fiercely protective of any scrap of privacy I can hang onto.

The right is lobbying against my reproductive freedoms in all forms, at all levels, in every way they can. Some days it seems that every news article I read is an attack. I would be lying if I said it wasn’t affecting my self-worth. What’s wrong with me, I wonder, that I can’t be trusted with my own freedom?


Quote:
On voting day, I cry. I tell Devan I think I might be having a panic attack. I tell him that if it passes, we will have to move. That I will have to leave my fellowship. That I can’t live in a place that would do this, where the people think these things, where my autonomy means so little.

“We’ll go,” he says. “If it passes. We’ll go.”


Wow.

Edited, May 8th 2012 1:30pm by Atomicflea
#145 May 08 2012 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
I do love the Rudyard Kipling poem, although if I had daughters I would think it just as valid. It is certainly been true for me.

Sexist though it may be, it doesn't apply to girls. Sure, it may be admirable for them to embody the same traits, but Manhood and woman-ness don't equate.
Thank you for so beautifully illustrating my OP. You have to earn these while I just grew gracefully into them. You can fail at these, while I cannot. I enjoy being a girl!



Except for periods. **** those.
#146 May 08 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

The name thing didn't bother me at all. I actually thought it was kind of cool. How often do you hear about a woman who is married, giving her family name to her child? Pretty much never. Even if she chooses to keep her last name, the kids are almost always given the father's name, or a hyphenated last name.


Giving her family name to HER child? That's exactly my point. It's not just her kid. Far be it from me to judge what a married couple has decided to about THEIR child's name, but I seriously got tired of the tone being that this spawn and the pregnancy involves only her and her husband doesn't seem to matter. I don't really care if they have agreed to give the kid only her name, but she should be less of a douche about the whole thing.


Edited, May 8th 2012 2:52pm by Belkira
#147 May 08 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.
#148 May 08 2012 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.


I actually do agree with this. I can't tell you how excited I was to move away from the political climate of Tennessee to a place that mostly shares my social issues.
#149 May 08 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
While I think having a panic attack over the possibility of a personhood amendment passing is way over the top, I wouldn't want to live there anymore either. I'd probably finish up the fellowship first though.

Sure, she can move, but that attitude is going to give her a heart attack. Wait until her precious private spawn covers her house with *****. She'll probably have an aneurysm.
#150 May 08 2012 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grandma is secretly waiting to use the "See I told you someday you'd have a daughter just like you" line.
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That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#151 May 08 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
I read the article. That was a mistake. Or not, I guess. It is further validation that the reason for the decline of the species isn't what Bill Maher would have us believe.
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