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A Look @ LookismFollow

#1 Apr 18 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I got an advertising email attempting to sell me access to an audio seminar titled Is Lookism Illegal? Appearance Discrimination at Work

Here's the seminar description:
Quote:
More and more frequently, the argument is made that there should be a law against 'lookism,' or appearance discrimination, in the workplace. This live audio conference will explore whether appearance discrimination is a significant problem, which laws already address it, and how a law might be written to outlaw it specifically. This program will better equip managers and human resources professionals to understand what an employer may lawfully require regarding employees' appearance, such as dress codes and grooming requirements and prohibitions against visible piercings and tattoos, to what extent beards and religious dress must be accommodated, and how to avoid hiring discrimination claims based on appearance.


Lol, should there be a law against lookism or are the current discrimination laws sufficient?

Can bias based on visual appearance be legislated out of the workplace? This seminar seems focused on hiring, but can you imagine what it could mean to be able to claim lookism in the workplace based on a pimple or a bad hair day or sweaty armpits?

Should there be laws against smellism or hearism?

Do you think anyone will pay $209.00 (US) to listen to this audio-seminar (visuals could lead to Lookism)?










Edited, Apr 18th 2012 5:49pm by Elinda
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#2 Apr 18 2012 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Do you think anyone will pay $209.00 (US) to listen to this audio-seminar (visuals could lead to Lookism)?
Fat ugly dumb people who don't understand just how stupid a concept as "Self Help" publications really are.
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#3 Apr 18 2012 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Do you think anyone will pay $209.00 (US) to listen to this audio-seminar (visuals could lead to Lookism)?
Fat ugly dumb people who don't understand just how stupid a concept as "Self Help" publications really are.

Fat and ugly are lookist! Dumb is dumb.
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#4 Apr 18 2012 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kinda interesting. I do think that there are some occasions where an employers do themselves a disservice by not considering people because they've got weird piercings, hair, or tats. Particularly so when their appearance has no effect on the company's ability to do its job. I do understand the other side of things, where a company's image might be important.

Also, I suppose there's a difference between things that we can reasonably control about ourselves (like piercings and hair, which are pretty darn easy to remove/change), and our physical form.

Is it something we really need legislation for? Dunno about that. Seems like things are loosening up fairly quickly on their own as far as workplace appearance goes, to me. Though I work in NYC, and we're apparently the Sodom to San Fran's Gomorrah, according to the varus's of the world. I'd love to see the standards for appearance loosen up more...things are so much more interesting when people are free to dress as bizarrely as they'd like. Smiley: grin

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 10:53am by Eske
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#5 Apr 18 2012 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Given the problems with discrimination against groups that already have legal protection I don't see those with stinky armpits or Elvis tattoos achieving equality anytime soon.

Seminar sounds like a great way to make money off of clueless or paranoid management types though. Smiley: nod
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#6 Apr 18 2012 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I recently heard this story on the radio.

For people who don't want to click the link: a Texas hospital has instituted a hiring ban on obese people, claiming that obese people do not fit a "representational image or specific mental projection of the job of a healthcare professional."

The hospital also claims that this is part of a personal appearance policy.

So far, the law has not been deemed illegal. It is worth noting that morbidly obese people are protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act.

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#7 Apr 18 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Inasmuch as visible personal expressions (piercings, tattoos, etc.) are indicative of personality traits, I don't see much of an issue with employers setting requirements for potential hires. It's akin to requiring a bachelor's degree for certain positions: possession of one doesn't automatically imply the ability to perform specific job duties, but it does correlate to the ability and willingness to put forth the effort to obtain it. And last time I checked, "educationism" was not a recognized form of discrimination.
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#8 Apr 18 2012 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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I've read your post several times now, Demea, and I'm not sure what you are saying. Which I'm sure is at least partly because I was out of coffee this morning.
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#9 Apr 18 2012 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Inasmuch as visible personal expressions (piercings, tattoos, etc.) are indicative of personality traits, I don't see much of an issue with employers setting requirements for potential hires.


They could be considered unprofessional, like jeans or t-shirts, and I imagine a dress code might allow or disallow them, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any correlation between piercings/tattoos and job performance.

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#10 Apr 18 2012 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I've read your post several times now, Demea, and I'm not sure what you are saying. Which I'm sure is at least partly because I was out of coffee this morning.

How is it you're able to type at all?
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#11 Apr 18 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think that if a position requires a person to project an appearance of professionalism, then they can cite the need to hire someone that cleans up well.

Consider the difference between inside sales and outside sales. Inside sales = sitting in a call center talking with people you'll probably never see. I had green hair at one point when I was doing this. Outside sales = going door to door, meeting clients, shaking hands, going to lunches, etc. For the latter, if you have green hair and you're trying to sell medical equipment, it probably isn't going to work.

Our big clients, which are medical offices, have a fitness requirement but it has nothing to do with hiring. Everyone is required to wear a pedometer and walk a minimum number of steps a day depending on their fitness level (can be achieved by running, jogging, however someone wants.) Those who achieve their fitness goals over a certain period of months get a discount on their insurance.
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#12 Apr 18 2012 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I recently heard this story on the radio.

For people who don't want to click the link: a Texas hospital has instituted a hiring ban on obese people, claiming that obese people do not fit a "representational image or specific mental projection of the job of a healthcare professional."

The hospital also claims that this is part of a personal appearance policy.

So far, the law has not been deemed illegal. It is worth noting that morbidly obese people are protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act.


The link is being long in loading. Does the hospital weigh potential hires to see if they fall into the obese range?

What if you get hired when not obese then get obese, can they fire you?

Do they also not hire other people that might engage in unhealthy activities like skateboarding, suntanning, eating at mickeyD's, or playing video games?

Weight seems so random. Obesity is usually an outcome of over-eating but not always...and people who over-eat or eat badly aren't always obese.
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#13 Apr 18 2012 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Demea wrote:
Inasmuch as visible personal expressions (piercings, tattoos, etc.) are indicative of personality traits, I don't see much of an issue with employers setting requirements for potential hires.


They could be considered unprofessional, like jeans or t-shirts, and I imagine a dress code might allow or disallow them, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any correlation between piercings/tattoos and job performance.

How do jeans or t-shirts affect job performance? The only way I can see those making an impact on you is in the eyes of your customers and whatever perceptions they may have about jeans or t-shirts are likely similar for piercings and tattoos.
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#14 Apr 18 2012 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Do they also not hire other people that might engage in unhealthy activities like skateboarding, suntanning, eating at mickeyD's, or playing video games?
Since when is skateboarding or playing video games unhealthy? ****, skateboarding is a physical activity.
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#15 Apr 18 2012 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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You simply can't have ridiculous activist rhetoric without some logical fallacy.
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#16 Apr 18 2012 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Do they also not hire other people that might engage in unhealthy activities like skateboarding, suntanning, eating at mickeyD's, or playing video games?
Since when is skateboarding or playing video games unhealthy? ****, skateboarding is a physical activity.


Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a fat skateboarder, come to think of it. Huh.

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 11:54am by Eske
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#17 Apr 18 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Do they also not hire other people that might engage in unhealthy activities like skateboarding, suntanning, eating at mickeyD's, or playing video games?
Since when is skateboarding or playing video games unhealthy? ****, skateboarding is a physical activity.
Since when is eating unhealthy? Skateboarding causes lots of injuries, and playing video games is sedentary and makes you violent. Also video-game players are notorious consumers of junk food and they're often spreading the *** and they're alcoholics too. Gamers are just bad all around. I'd not blame a company for screening them out.

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#18 Apr 18 2012 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Do they also not hire other people that might engage in unhealthy activities like skateboarding, suntanning, eating at mickeyD's, or playing video games?
Since when is skateboarding or playing video games unhealthy? ****, skateboarding is a physical activity.


Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a fat skateboarder, come to think of it. Huh.

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 11:54am by Eske

Is it about fat? Then it's lookism. The hospital claims it's about being healthy. Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
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#19 Apr 18 2012 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
[Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
And otherwise, be in better shape than probably 85% of the population.
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#20 Apr 18 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
The hospital claims it's about being healthy.
No it doesn't.
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#21 Apr 18 2012 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
[Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
And otherwise, be in better shape than probably 85% of the population.

What do you mean by better shape?

If you're an nurse in a hospital do you think you could do your job better with a twisted ankle or a big ****?



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#22 Apr 18 2012 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
The hospital claims it's about being healthy.
No it doesn't.

You're right I misread bigdaddys post. The hospital admits it's all about looks. Hah. Wonder if they do lots of plastic surgery.



Edited, Apr 18th 2012 6:10pm by Elinda
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#23 Apr 18 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
If you're an nurse in a hospital do you think you could do your job better with a twisted ankle or a big ****?
Twisted ankle goes away after two days. One if you actually do something for it. And, you know, much easier to take health advice from someone with a twisted ankle than someone that has to walk sideways through doors.
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#24 Apr 18 2012 at 10:14 AM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
[Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
And otherwise, be in better shape than probably 85% of the population.

I'm assuming there is a study that both defines 'better shape' and provides reliable data?

What about fat kids that skateboard, are they in better shape than fat kids that don't skateboard or are they in better shape than skinny kids that don't skateboard?
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#25 Apr 18 2012 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If you're an nurse in a hospital do you think you could do your job better with a twisted ankle or a big ****?
Twisted ankle goes away after two days. One if you actually do something for it. And, you know, much easier to take health advice from someone with a twisted ankle than someone that has to walk sideways through doors.

I doubt everyone in the medical field. Have you seen the diets of most doctors?

Not good. Smiley: disappointed
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#26 Apr 18 2012 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
[Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
And otherwise, be in better shape than probably 85% of the population.

I'm assuming there is a study that both defines 'better shape' and provides reliable data?

What about fat kids that skateboard, are they in better shape than fat kids that don't skateboard or are they in better shape than skinny kids that don't skateboard?


Skateboarders smoke more pot. That helps them keep the weight off.
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#27 Apr 18 2012 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If you're an nurse in a hospital do you think you could do your job better with a twisted ankle or a big ****?
Twisted ankle goes away after two days. One if you actually do something for it. And, you know, much easier to take health advice from someone with a twisted ankle than someone that has to walk sideways through doors.
I don't know any people fat or skinny that have to walk sideways through a door, but your willingness to dis a large group of people based strictly on how much they weigh and zilch about how well they can do a job says a ton about you (nothing surprising however).
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#28 Apr 18 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
[Well you go find a group of hard-core skateboarders and I bet at least one of them will be sporting a cast, a sling, crutches or bandages.
And otherwise, be in better shape than probably 85% of the population.

I'm assuming there is a study that both defines 'better shape' and provides reliable data?

What about fat kids that skateboard, are they in better shape than fat kids that don't skateboard or are they in better shape than skinny kids that don't skateboard?


Skateboarders smoke more pot. That helps them keep the weight off.

They play video-games too.
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#29 Apr 18 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
They play video-games too.


Of course, video games about skateboarding.
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#30 Apr 18 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
What about fat kids that skateboard
I'm not sure we can have an honest conversation if you're going to be making things up.
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#31 Apr 18 2012 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
If you're an nurse in a hospital do you think you could do your job better with a twisted ankle or a big ****?
Twisted ankle goes away after two days. One if you actually do something for it. And, you know, much easier to take health advice from someone with a twisted ankle than someone that has to walk sideways through doors.
I don't know any people fat or skinny that have to walk sideways through a door, but your willingness to dis a large group of people based strictly on how much they weigh and zilch about how well they can do a job says a ton about you (nothing surprising however).
Your constant insistence of ignoring facts of any argument (Funnier when those facts are ones you, yourself, provide and then proceed to ignore) and your attempts to mutate the issue into something you can feel righteous over says only one thing about you. That you're an idiot that is easily manipulated by the media to feel outrage for whatever "humanitarian" story they decide to air. Again, since apparently ten seconds was plenty of time for you to forget, it isn't an issue about how well someone can perform their job, but of the image they portray doing it. No one is going to hire a four hundred pound rotund personal trainer. Go boycott your gym.

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 12:35pm by lolgaxe
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#32 Apr 18 2012 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Said business can create whatever criteria they want for declaring someone "fit" or "not fit" or "healthy" or "not healthy" provided it doesn't run afoul existing anti-discrimination laws. If they want to say you're fit if you eat an apple a day while you're 400lbs and the Adonis next to you is rejected for failing the apple test, tough noogies for him. Weight seems like a fairly easy thing to measure and quantify as opposed to measuring someone's outside-the-office exercise styles or suntanning habits or hours logged in WoW.
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#33 Apr 18 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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From what I've been able to glean from multiple sources, they are basing it on BMI. they are saying anyone with a BMI over 35 (or maybe it was 30) could not be hired. I would guess they could easily obtain this information by claiming that a physical was a requirement for employment consideration.
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#34 Apr 18 2012 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I've read your post several times now, Demea, and I'm not sure what you are saying. Which I'm sure is at least partly because I was out of coffee this morning.

I was kind of specifically responding to something Eske said above me:
Eske wrote:
Kinda interesting. I do think that there are some occasions where an employers do themselves a disservice by not considering people because they've got weird piercings, hair, or tats. Particularly so when their appearance has no effect on the company's ability to do its job.

My point was that companies have to use as much information as possible to evaluate potential hires, while simultaneously avoiding running afoul of discrimination laws. People with visible tattoos or strange piercings are associated (fairly or not) with certain personality traits which employers might find undesirable. However, there's nothing to say that they can't use this information in selecting somebody for a job.

I tried to draw a parallel to the common requirement of having a bachelor's degree, which by itself tells you nothing about how somebody will perform specific job functions. However, since employers can't administer IQ tests to their potential hires, they use the bachelor's degree as a proxy to identify candidates that have certain qualities or traits that they are looking for, much like they use tattoos/piercings to identify candidates that have certain qualities/traits they aren't looking for. Nobody complains that requiring a bachelor's degree is "educationism" because that would be silly, must like this "lookism" tomfoolery.

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 1:24pm by Demea
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#35 Apr 18 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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If it were up to me, we'd all be wearing suits and skirt/blouse combos to work as gender deems appropriate. That's because I'm an old crank.

Also, keep your tattoos off my lawn.

Edited, Apr 18th 2012 1:30pm by Jophiel
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#36 Apr 18 2012 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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#37 Apr 18 2012 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Appearance discrimination is much more subtle and unfair than most of you are talking about. Studies have shown that of two equally competent, well groomed, same clothed, fit, qualified, diligent, and pleasant workers, promotions and pay rises will consistently go to the taller worker. If they are equally tall, they will go to the better looking worker. When hiring, employers considering two candidates of completely equal merit will hire the candidate who most closely physically resembles themselves in looks. Thus offices of men of a certain type, work sites of men of a different certain type, libraries of women of a certain type, and schools of women of a different certain type.

The point of this is that there are discriminatory practises at work that bosses and employers are entirely unconscious of practising. I don't know if at this point in time it is something to make a fuss of. But the fact is, if you are a shorter, uglier person, you may never get hired despite being competent, qualified, fit and healthy. Or if you're hired, you may make hundreds of thousands of dollars less, or even millions less, over your working life, than your taller, better looking brethren. Clothing, hair tinting, tattoos and body piercing hasn't even entered the equation at this point. Is this state of affairs important? Well, it might be important if you are a beautiful person on the inside, and short and ugly on the outside. You don't get hired because you are unconsciously unrespected. [misspelling intended] And then other people blame you for being long term unemployed AND economically punish you for it.
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#38 Apr 19 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody complains that requiring a bachelor's degree is "educationism" because that would be silly, must like this "lookism" tomfoolery.


Actually I do complain about that... silly or not (though I don't use that torturous word you just made up) - I call it classism. There are certainly times when a bach. degree could be considered a genuine job requirement, but it actually annoys me to no end when employers make having a degree (but they don't care in what!) a job requirement.

If it is a job working at a nature center and leading kids on tours of a marsh, sure, require a bachelors in environmental studies or biology or some related science. I can get that. But it is silly to hire someone who has a degree in women's studies over someone who doesn't have a degree but has been an avid birder for decades and can quote from the origin of species from memory. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't discrimination.

I link it to classism because the biggest barrier to school is not motivation, nor intelligence but money. It is wrong to give employers a free pass to hire people simply because their parents could afford to subsidize a useless degree so they could apply for jobs that require you to have completed a degree, any one at all.

I don't blame employers necessarily for using education as a "shortcut" to try to guess whether a person has some sort of basic modicum of brainpower - but I think it flies in the face of the so-called American dream of class mobility if we justify using unrelated credentials to weed people out of the candidate pool.

Not to mention that because a bach. degree is the new high school diploma, I seem to be seeing more and more people with higher and higher degrees who can't write a sentence, let alone a paragraph.

I am definitely biased here, as someone who doesn't have a degree (couldn't afford to finish it) - but was lucky enough to find an employer who didn't discriminate against me on that basis.
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#39 Apr 19 2012 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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If you couldn't afford to finish school, there were always tuition assistance programs, scholarships, and as a last resort, student loans. I'm sure you considered all of these things before deciding not to pursue them, and as an employer, I'm going to analyze that decision when looking at prospective candidates for a job. Again, this doesn't mean that you aren't qualified to perform the job, but it does give an approximate insight into personality traits that are of interest to an employer.
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#40 Apr 19 2012 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
As someone who works at a dollar store, I absolutely support discriminating against hiring people who smell. I get customers in my store almost every day who reek of B.O. I'm not sure about other towns, but here there is no excuse for that. We have public showers that require just a few quarters, and there are at least two laundromats. I don't care if people come in wearing dirty clothes, or dirty hands, but coming in and smelling so bad it almost makes me physically ill, that's just rude. And it really doesn't help when the stench stagnates for several minutes after they leave.

Other forms of discrimination are wrong. Discriminating against people based on how they smell, I think it perfectly understandable.
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#41 Apr 19 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:

I am definitely biased here, as someone who doesn't have a degree (couldn't afford to finish it) - but was lucky enough to find an employer who didn't discriminate against me on that basis.


As someone who doesn't have an advanced degree I try to spin it as a positive. Look at it this way, I can do just about everything someone with a higher degree can, for a fraction of the cost. Granted it puts the pressure on you to prove you can actually do what you're claiming, but if you're really qualified you can probably find a way (as you seem to have).

Having to prove yourself time and again is frustrating as anything, but it's a good motivator too.

But yeah, I think there's a real lack of any good reason that many jobs require an certain degree and also whether or not many degrees are granting skills that are really useful in the workplace as well. It's a conspiracy. I tells ya.

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#42 Apr 19 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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#44 Apr 19 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I always viewed undergraduate degrees as proof you managed to put up with institutional ******** for four years without giving up or committing suicide. If you can survive a university setting in the US, you can deal with:

- Boneheaded departmental decisions that make no sense
- Crazy schedules
- Ridiculous deadlines and crunch times on upwards of 5 projects at once
- Fooling several dozen people into thinking you've actually learned something from them in three months
- Dealing with mountains of forms with their own deadlines
- Endless construction around your environment

Ostensibly, completing a four year degree means you've managed to pick up a little bit of time management, organization, and budgeting skills over the course of your education.

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#45 Apr 19 2012 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Actually I do complain about that... silly or not (though I don't use that torturous word you just made up) - I call it classism. There are certainly times when a bach. degree could be considered a genuine job requirement, but it actually annoys me to no end when employers make having a degree (but they don't care in what!) a job requirement.
You've never been on the other side have you, where you're doing the hiring? I can think of multiple reasons as to why you may want to include a requirement of a degree despite the job not actually requiring you to have one.
Two off the top of my head:
-reduces number of applicants
-eliminates deadbeats who never had the motivation/desire/capability to go to school




Also, I'm not buying your excuse of not being able to afford getting a degree in Canada. The cost is anything but prohibitive and almost any basic degree can be done part-time, making it even more affordable. If any degree is the requirement, then any degree will do to go to school for.

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#46 Apr 19 2012 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Ostensibly, completing a four year degree means you've managed to pick up a little bit of time management, organization, and budgeting skills over the course of your education.

The most important skill you learn in college is how to learn (or how you learn). Which, in addition to the things you listed, are all desirable qualities that employers look for in their employees, and are evidenced by completing a bachelor's degree.

So, um... pancakes?
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#47 Apr 19 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
So, um... pancakes?
It's about ******* time a thread in this hellhole finally went in an interesting direction.
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#48 Apr 19 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Demea wrote:
So, um... pancakes?
It's about ******* time a thread in this hellhole finally went in an interesting direction.


The best pancakes are plain pancakes. No berries, no chocolate chips, none of that *********

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#49 Apr 19 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
catwho wrote:
Ostensibly, completing a four year degree means you've managed to pick up a little bit of time management, organization, and budgeting skills over the course of your education.

The most important skill you learn in college is how to learn (or how you learn). Which, in addition to the things you listed, are all desirable qualities that employers look for in their employees, and are evidenced by completing a bachelor's degree.

So, um... pancakes?


Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty sure I knew that well before college. Smiley: wink

Oh and make mine blueberry thanks.


Edited, Apr 19th 2012 1:08pm by someproteinguy
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#50 Apr 19 2012 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
If you couldn't afford to finish school, there were always tuition assistance programs, scholarships, and as a last resort, student loans.


yeah I have tens of thousands in student loans. I stopped when I realized the probable increase in my wages from the degree wasn't going to pay off my loans in a reasonable amount of time (especially with getting knocked into a higher tax bracket). I made the right choice, since I wouldn't have the sweet job I have now if I had wasted more time at school (due to the economic downturn changing the job market) and lo and behold, I do my job just as well as my colleagues with bach. and masters degrees.

Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.

Uglysasquatch wrote:

Also, I'm not buying your excuse of not being able to afford getting a degree in Canada. The cost is anything but prohibitive and almost any basic degree can be done part-time, making it even more affordable. If any degree is the requirement, then any degree will do to go to school for.


Yeah, I don't know where you live in Canada but in this province the cost of living is prohibitively high - and during the time I was going to school tuition fees more than doubled, rent skyrocketed (thanks olympics for the real estate bubble!), and minimum wage was flatlined for 10 years.

As for being able to do a degree part-time... yeah, good luck paying for tuition (cause you can't get any loans if you are working full time or going to school part-time instead of full time), paying exorbitant rent, and making 8 bucks an hour in a city where a living wage would be more like 16. Is it possible to live in a dingy hole with 10 other people, work full time and somehow manage to keep your sanity while completing a degree part-time over 10 years? Sure. Is it realistic to expect the average joe to do so? Not really.

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 1:37pm by Olorinus
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#51 Apr 19 2012 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.

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