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The Cashless SocietyFollow

#1 Apr 01 2012 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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You know when you hear things on the media, and they sound like if they''re implemented, or come to fruit, they'll change things so much for the better? and 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, you remember about them, and realise that future never came? The other day, there was a media report that Australia now only uses cash for 20% of its transactions, down from 30% 4 years ago. And days later its set off my gut instinct. My gut threw back a concept and my brain came up with the phrase "Early Adaptors".

You see, for all our geographical isolation, split-brain xenophobia, political idiocy, trailing behind progressive Northern Europe, and passionate love-hate affair with American culture, Australia has way of quietly, invisibly, being the first, or one of the first few, nations in the world to implement stuff.

We've had the most cell phones per head of population for some time now.
1988, the world's first anti-counterfeit plastic bank-notes were Australian.
1970, the first in the world to make seat-belts compulsory to wear at all times, and heavily police the law at implementation, plunging the road death toll per capita.
Former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke was previously the world record holder for the fastest drinking of a yard of beer, when he downed a sconce pot in eleven seconds as part of a traditional Oxford college penalty
1901, the first nation in the world crated by a vote of citizens instead of by war, revolution or invasion.
1894, South Australia became the first nation in the world to grant women the vote. I'm claiming that one because South Australia became a state of Australia in 1901.

in the 1980's the Labour government - the party for the workers and disenfranchised - radically abolished tariffs and we've been making Free Trade treaties all over the place since. Financially we're one of the least protectionist nations in the world, and we've swallowed it despite a massive turnover in industries, businesses, and small farmers. Diplomatically, economically and scientifically we have punched far above our population weight on the world stage for at least 60 years. This is despite having a rather modest GDP growth rate. On the flip side, we're one of the cruellest nations to asylum seekers who arrive by boat, with all sorts of innovative ways of keeping them in concentration camps for years before admitting they're genuine refugees and releasing them, with a bill for their years of compulsory confinement.

Anyway, I just have this feeling. Most experts think that there will always need to be cash in society, and if we get rid of it, criminals will just invent something new to circulate. But I bet, I bet you that the first nation to officially abolish cash (even if it doesn't stick) will be Australia. We are already in the process of abolishing cheques.
#2 Apr 01 2012 at 11:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
We are already in the process of abolishing cheques.


Is a check something different in Australia? If not, why would you abolish checks before paper money/coinage? That just doesn't make sense.
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#3 Apr 01 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Because all wages to employees get deposited directly to their bank accounts from the employer's bank account, bills are paid by Billpay over the phone from your bank account to the utility, bills to companies are paid via credit card, debit card, Billpay via phone, or direct payments via internet to their bank account. Taxis are paid via debit or credit card in the cab, home deliveries are paid by credit or debit card via a mobile swipey system, Groceries and in-store purchaces are usually debit or credit cards, government welfare and tax returns are paid directly into your bank account and government and private health insurance returns are paid directly into your bank account. Healthcare visits are usually paid upfront via debit card out of bank account or credit card. Unless you earn under $20 k then you just sign the bill and the government pays directly into the doctor's account and you pay nothing. Medicines are usually cheap enough for cash, but otherwise debit or credit cards.

That was a bit backwards. Doctor's visit: they show you the bill, you debit card or credit card it right there, you show your Medicare card or they have the number on record, you sign a little slip, the doctor's receptionist transfers a government refund directly from a government Medicare account to your own bank account, which clears immediately for you to use, and keeps the signed slip for government audits.

Electronic bank-to-bank transfers usually take 2 days to clear tops, compared to 7-10 working days for cheques. Government bank transfers into your account are usually available to spend immediately, no clearance time needed.

Buying over the internet takes a debit or credit card. Anything where you used to post a cheque is now usually handles by internet or phone banking. Basically if you're Australian you can't function without a bank account unless you are off the grid. On the bright side, the Government guarantees up to $150k of your money in any one bank account.

Edited, Apr 1st 2012 2:04pm by Aripyanfar
#4 Apr 01 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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What about large sum purchases between persons, in person. (Not talking internet auction purchases or anything here). Or paying a neighbor for services. Things that would be inconvenient to pay by cash.
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#5 Apr 01 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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This will all end with Gbaji holed up in some mountain cave with a stack of personal checks and a shotgun.
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#6 Apr 01 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I imagine a piano playing hillbilly pirate accompanying him.
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#7 Apr 01 2012 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I supose not having to tell people to clear their browser cache would be useful.
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#8 Apr 01 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Tirrith: Usually internet banking has limits on transfers ($2k for example) , but for larger sums, you call their 24 hour hotline, identify yourself, and get a one hour window in which you can transfer as much money as you like. internet transfers are easy, all you need is the BSB number of their bank, and their account number. Knowing their account number and BSB isn't going to allow you to take any money out of their account, you won't have the correct password and user ID number, which is a separate thing from the account number.

For instance I'm going to buy a painting from my mother soon, for less than $2,000. She's going to tell me her BSB and account number, and it should take me no more than 3 minutes, from past experience, to set up the bank-to-bank transfer on the internet. And I'm a slow internet banker

Edited, Apr 1st 2012 2:16pm by Aripyanfar
#9 Apr 01 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Usually internet banking has limits on transfers ($2k for example) , but for large sums, you call their 24 hour hotline, identify yourself, and get a one hour window in which you can transfer as much money as you like. internet transfers are easy, all you need is the BSB number of their bank, and their account number. Knowing their account number and BSB isn't going to allow you to take any money out of their account, you won't have the correct password and user ID number, which is a separate thing from the account number.


Or I just take out my check book, a pen, write a check for the sum and give it to the person. And if they need something more secure I get a Cashier's Check, with their name on it, and give it to them. The only information I need of theirs is their name. Don't need to know their bank routing number, account number, etc.

I owed my uncle 600 dollars for some work he did on my yard (couple truckloads of dirt and gravel, heavy equipment usage, etc.) Seems a lot easy for me to write him a 600 dollar check than to get his bank info/account info and have to transfer money from me to him.

I purchased a 3,000 dollar used vehicle that was for sale by owner. I stopped by my bank on the way home one afternoon and got a 3,000 dollar cashiers check to them. Handed over the check and took the vehicle.

Just seems like eliminating checks is pointless. They have their use.
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#10 Apr 01 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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They have their use, but they are almost obsolete in Australia. Remember I said we have the most cell-phones per capita in the world? Most of those are smart-phones, because Phone companies will sell them to you for $5-$7 dollars a month for two years if you sign up with their phone services for two years.

With a smart phone, most people are no longer carrying a paper book diary, a paper address book, a novel, a laptop - or a paper cheque book. In your situation, most Aussies would whip out their smart phone, hit their internet banking short-cut, and punch in the numbers. Or they'd hit up their bank in their Favourites phone contact list, and punch in numbers there. It'd take a little longer than writing out a cheque, but the other person would be happy to get the money in 2 days instead of 7. Plus there's no such thing as a dud bank transfer. It won't initiate if you don't have the money in your account and the money will immediately be debited from your account, unlike a cheque which can bounce if the funds aren't really there or are taken out before the cheque is cashed.

Similar with making appointments. It takes a little longer to write an appointment into your smartphone, but there's no way in hell you're going to miss it, or be late. Your phone will make noises at you and give you details to remind you of the appointment whenever you've asked to be reminded, like one day before the appointment, and then two hours before the appointment. And your phone will tell you how to get there, either by car or public transport. You can set up regular appointments where the details and reminders don't need to be changed further, or edit appointments that have been moved in time or place. Keep your phone on and charged, and it will remind you about the really important stuff for you. Like having a personal secretary or something.

Edited, Apr 1st 2012 3:03pm by Aripyanfar
#11 Apr 01 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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I think you need the account number for checks here so there's no extra info needed for internet banking. I'm not entirely sure though since I've never actually had to use a check.
In both cases Tirith just mentioned it would be much quicker and just as easy to use internet banking.
#12 Apr 01 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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How would you know how a cheque compares to internet banking if you've never used a cheque? Smiley: grin

It's been several years since I've used or received a cheque. Handing over someone a cheque on the spot is easier for the person writing the cheque out, I think. But if you are writing a cheque out, and have to post it too, well that's a much bigger pest than net banking, phone banking, or buying on the internet with a card. Receiving a cheque is much more pesky than direct payments into your own account.
#13 Apr 01 2012 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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My personal opinion on the matter is that I prefer cash, but do enjoy the convenience of electronic. Cash seems more real to me than just swiping my card. It has more of an impact to me to actually hand something over for goods and services than to just have some numbers change in my account. That said, it's nice to not have to carry around large amounts of money, and to not have to worry if I have enough money on me to buy something.

Just for practicalities sake, I don't see cash ever going away entirely. I've worked retail, and one thing that I can say is that electronic services do go down from time to time. You can't just stop your entire business because of network issues. Not to mention that there are tons of places that are still cash only. Businesses aside, there are plenty of debts of a private nature that it's just easier to either use cash or a check for. From Ari's tale I can see things are a bit different in Australia, but for now at least the U.S. just isn't ready for it.
#14 Apr 01 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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I guess one thing driving this is that Australia has really reliable cell coverage for 80% of the population. There are areas outside the cities where internet services are dodgy but sell coverage good, or where cell coverage is non existant but internet services are up. So you can go either net or phone banking routes. The people in the outback are stuffed unless they can afford Satellite, and if companies provide satellite way out in their back of beyond.

But this is where the National Broadband Network that one side of politics is building and intends to complete would kick in for everyone, when it reaches their house. In ten years time if the Labour party stays in power 90% of Australians would have optic fibre to their houses, and the other 10% in the outback would have slower services, but guaranteed internet services non the less. They have actually already started the NBN up and running in Tasmanian small towns, starting the service not where the most people are, but where there are people that have least access to the internet.
#15 Apr 01 2012 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
How would you know how a cheque compares to internet banking if you've never used a cheque? Smiley: grin
Just because I've never used one doesn't mean I've never seen one. I should actually have a checkbook. Somewhere. Gathering dust.

Edit: Cash only places are really rare in the Netherlands and a lot of stores prefer being paid with debit cards instead of cash.

Edited, Apr 1st 2012 10:08pm by Aethien
#16 Apr 01 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nothing makes me want to kidney punch someone like an octogenarian pulling out a check book.
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#17 Apr 01 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I think you need the account number for checks here so there's no extra info needed for internet banking. I'm not entirely sure though since I've never actually had to use a check.
In both cases Tirith just mentioned it would be much quicker and just as easy to use internet banking.


You shouldn't need the account numbers of the Payee when writing a check. And checks already contain the bank routing information and account numbers of the Payer written on the check. The only thing you should have to write on the check is who you are paying to, and how much.

Internet banking is only as easy as access to the internet. Checking is as easy as access to your check book.
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#18 Apr 01 2012 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke was previously the world record holder for the fastest drinking of a yard of beer, when he downed a sconce pot in eleven seconds as part of a traditional Oxford college penalty

I have no idea what any of this means.
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#19 Apr 01 2012 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke was previously the world record holder for the fastest drinking of a yard of beer, when he downed a sconce pot in eleven seconds as part of a traditional Oxford college penalty

I have no idea what any of this means.

Bob Hawke got elected as Prime Minister (like the USA President) for a total of 12 years, because people loved him because he loved sports and drank like a fish.

Drinking like a fish included holding the world speed record for drinking one of these in 11 seconds.
Screenshot


Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 12:32am by Aripyanfar
#20 Apr 01 2012 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:

Internet banking is only as easy as access to the internet. Checking is as easy as access to your check book.
Yeah, until you have to go deposit it. Driving to the bank is a pain in the ***, and the only reason it's as easy for me to deal with paper checks as it is to transfer the money electronically is *drumroll*... because I deposit them via the internet.

Paper checks are also a huge source of fraud and I would pretty much never take one from a stranger. Yes, this includes things like cashiers checks and money orders.

Edited, Apr 1st 2012 11:59pm by Sweetums
#21 Apr 02 2012 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I think you need the account number for checks here so there's no extra info needed for internet banking. I'm not entirely sure though since I've never actually had to use a check.
In both cases Tirith just mentioned it would be much quicker and just as easy to use internet banking.
You shouldn't need the account numbers of the Payee when writing a check. And checks already contain the bank routing information and account numbers of the Payer written on the check. The only thing you should have to write on the check is who you are paying to, and how much.

Internet banking is only as easy as access to the internet. Checking is as easy as access to your check book.
My internet banking account already contains all my info as well so that's kind of a moot point and I tried to verify what info you need on a check here but I can't even find an image on google.
and I've got access to the internet almost everywhere.

And as Sweetums said, having to go to the bank is a pita and checks are much slower and much more prone to fraud.
#22 Apr 02 2012 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Demea wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke was previously the world record holder for the fastest drinking of a yard of beer, when he downed a sconce pot in eleven seconds as part of a traditional Oxford college penalty

I have no idea what any of this means.

Bob Hawke got elected as Prime Minister (like the USA President) for a total of 12 years, because people loved him because he loved sports and drank like a fish.

Drinking like a fish included holding the world speed record for drinking one of these in 11 seconds.
Screenshot


Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 12:32am by Aripyanfar

11 seconds? That's insane. IIRC I can do it in about 25.
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#23 Apr 02 2012 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
You know when you hear things on the media, and they sound like if they''re implemented, or come to fruit, they'll change things so much for the better? and 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, you remember about them, and realise that future never came? The other day, there was a media report that Australia now only uses cash for 20% of its transactions, down from 30% 4 years ago. And days later its set off my gut instinct. My gut threw back a concept and my brain came up with the phrase "Early Adaptors".

You see, for all our geographical isolation, split-brain xenophobia, political idiocy, trailing behind progressive Northern Europe, and passionate love-hate affair with American culture, Australia has way of quietly, invisibly, being the first, or one of the first few, nations in the world to implement stuff.

We've had the most cell phones per head of population for some time now.
1988, the world's first anti-counterfeit plastic bank-notes were Australian.
1970, the first in the world to make seat-belts compulsory to wear at all times, and heavily police the law at implementation, plunging the road death toll per capita.
Former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke was previously the world record holder for the fastest drinking of a yard of beer, when he downed a sconce pot in eleven seconds as part of a traditional Oxford college penalty
1901, the first nation in the world crated by a vote of citizens instead of by war, revolution or invasion.
1894, South Australia became the first nation in the world to grant women the vote. I'm claiming that one because South Australia became a state of Australia in 1901.

in the 1980's the Labour government - the party for the workers and disenfranchised - radically abolished tariffs and we've been making Free Trade treaties all over the place since. Financially we're one of the least protectionist nations in the world, and we've swallowed it despite a massive turnover in industries, businesses, and small farmers. Diplomatically, economically and scientifically we have punched far above our population weight on the world stage for at least 60 years. This is despite having a rather modest GDP growth rate. On the flip side, we're one of the cruellest nations to asylum seekers who arrive by boat, with all sorts of innovative ways of keeping them in concentration camps for years before admitting they're genuine refugees and releasing them, with a bill for their years of compulsory confinement.

Anyway, I just have this feeling. Most experts think that there will always need to be cash in society, and if we get rid of it, criminals will just invent something new to circulate. But I bet, I bet you that the first nation to officially abolish cash (even if it doesn't stick) will be Australia. We are already in the process of abolishing cheques.
I hear Canada is doing away with the penny.
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#24 Apr 02 2012 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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We've been talking about that for 10 years now, maybe more. I'd rather do away with Quebec. It'd save us more in the long run.
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#25 Apr 02 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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We need to do away with the penny and the nickle. Both a waste of money.
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#26 Apr 02 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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