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#502 Apr 07 2012 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
"Adolescent boy" refers to the fact that he is an adolescent. There's nothing in that phrase that says "twiggy little panty waist".




Other than the word "boy". Boy implies kid,child etc. No one would call a 6'3'', 200 lbs 17 year old MALE a "boy", at least not to his face anyway. 17 is a young adult, not a child, not a boy. If a 17 year old kills and/or rapes someone what are the odds he would be tried as an adult? Fact is 17 year olds do rape, murder, molest and mutilate others. 17 isn't 8. I'm not saying Trayvon was guilty of anything, but by 17 youthful innocence is long gone.
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#503 Apr 07 2012 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree. Everyone over the age of 37 refers to me as a "kid", despite the fact that I'm 5'11", 210 lbs, am 22, and have a full beard. Maybe others add connotation to differentiate adolescent, boy, and kid. But I see them as relatively synonymous. *shrug*

Maybe I'm just not in the norm. But either way, it strikes me as absurd to try and argue against word choices based on a subjective connotative meaning rather than the objective denotative one. Martin WAS an adolescent. He WAS a boy (most people would probably try and argue he was a "young man" which is objectively in the terrain of "boy" by most definitions).

But if we want to evade all semantics, just translate boy/adolescent to minor.
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#504 Apr 08 2012 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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I'm good friends with two soldiers, one a teen, one in his early twenties. One is huge and musclular, the other is vicious and deadly. They both have anger management problems in general. One's extreme flashback problems, beserker rage and training has started to make his family and friends afraid of him. He's the one I unironically call Sweetpea. They are both boys to me, even the married one. Both complex mixtures of personality, immaturity, and maturity. Young and still forming amidst a world of troubles.
#505 Apr 08 2012 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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§61.30. Loitering or Prowling; Defined & Punished; Defenses. (a) A person commits a violation if he loiters or prowls in a place, at a time, or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant alarm for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity. Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a peace officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. (b) Unless flight by the person or other circumstances makes it impracticable, a peace officer shall prior to any arrest for an offense under this Section afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm which would otherwise be warranted, by requesting him to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. (c) No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Section if the peace officer did not comply with Subsection (b) or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and, if believed by the peace officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm.
#506 Apr 08 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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We know from the recorded phone call with the dispatcher that the first time Martin approached Zimmerman, Zimmerman did not comply with subsection b).
#507 Apr 08 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
Aripyanfar wrote:
We know from the recorded phone call with the dispatcher that the first time Martin approached Zimmerman, Zimmerman did not comply with subsection b).


This and the fact that Zimmerman, no matter what he believed, is not a police officer. The part about fleeing in the section that Terrifyingspeed quoted talks about a person fleeing from "a peace officer," which means a police man. Martin was fleeing from some guy who started chasing him, not from a uniformed police officer. The former could be seen as fear, the latter would be seen as suspicious.
#508 Apr 08 2012 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
I saw a guy actually committing a crime today. He was stealing plants that were left outside of a store that was closed for Easter. He casually drove away while I was on the phone with the police. Was I unreasonable for not chasing him down? I really wanna know what most people think. Should I have done anything other than just call the police?
#509 Apr 08 2012 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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I give you kudos for calling. Had you chased him down, I would have called you insane.
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#510 Apr 09 2012 at 3:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
I saw a guy actually committing a crime today. He was stealing plants that were left outside of a store that was closed for Easter. He casually drove away while I was on the phone with the police. Was I unreasonable for not chasing him down? I really wanna know what most people think. Should I have done anything other than just call the police?
Should have shot out his tires. Smiley: tongue

But seriously, if you got his license plate number and passed it on to the police, I'd say that's more than your civic duty.
#511 Apr 09 2012 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We know from the recorded phone call with the dispatcher that the first time Martin approached Zimmerman, Zimmerman did not comply with subsection b).


Actually, he was unable to because Martin "Fled" or "Ran away" (based on recorded call). Chasing is different than following, The reasonableness of Zimmermans "suspicion" is one of the factors that would be addressed in court if charges are filed.

I dont know about anyone else, but I notice "Warning: Neighborhood Watch" signs when I see them (they have a little picto of a 'crook" on them & say "we report suspicious activity")

So, we have a 1) gated community with 2) an established neighborhood watch,3) night-time, rainy 4) person "runs away" when he notices he's being watched 5) unknown person to Zimmerman (who probably has seen other neighbors jogging or walking in his time as "watch-captain")

It seems Martin had just recently come to that neighborhood, & there is a good chance he wasnt seen before by Zimmerman, Was the dads fiance aware of recent problems & the establishment of "Neighborhood Watch" ? Did they discuss it with him ? Maybe he coulda just told Zimmerman "Hey, I'm visiting so-and so in unit # such and such"

This is a case of "Poor Situational Awareness".























#512 Apr 09 2012 at 6:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Terrifyingspeed wrote:
Maybe he coulda just told Zimmerman "Hey, I'm visiting so-and so in unit # such and such"
This assumes he knew Zimmerman was with Neighborhood Watch.
#513 Apr 09 2012 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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By not arresting Zimmerman, Florida agreed to let the media, and you and me decide this case.

I think he's guilty. I think he's paranoid. I think he had a gun, a paranoia, a feeling of being enables by FL lawmakers and his community. Martin was the one trying to defend himself from this whacko that was stalking him.

Guilty.

Next time I run into the dude I'm standing my ground and kicking him in the nuts.
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#514 Apr 09 2012 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
an established neighborhood watch


This doesn't seem the case. At least, he wasn't part of any watch organization or coordinated with the local police department. This was just locals deciding to stay on the look out, not an organized activity. So it's extremely possible that papa Martin's girlfriend had no clue who Zimmerman was. Also probable that there aren't neighborhood watch signs out.

And, seriously, should you have to explain to your visitors not to run afoul of the local watch? That's absurd.
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#515 Apr 09 2012 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But if we want to evade all semantics, just translate boy/adolescent to minor.
If you're old enough to be treated as an adult in the eyes of the courts then insisting on calling him any variation of minor is disingenuous.
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#516 Apr 09 2012 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But if we want to evade all semantics, just translate boy/adolescent to minor.
If you're old enough to be treated as an adult in the eyes of the courts then insisting on calling him any variation of minor is disingenuous.


"Old enough" is a seriously problematic system, though. There have been 13 year old kids tried as adults.

Frankly, until a court decides that Martin should be considered an adult, I'm going to continue to consider him a minor.
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#517 Apr 09 2012 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Frankly, until a court decides that Martin should be considered an adult, I'm going to continue to consider him a minor.
If Martin killed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd robbed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd stolen something he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd been in a fight he'd be treated as an adult. I can't really think of a case where he wouldn't be treated as an adult, excluding the purchase and consumption of alcohol. The only difference is that, in this case he's the victim, and calling him a minor helps subtly sway opinion towards automatic presumption of innocence.

17 is a crappy age. Legally you'll be treated as an adult should you mess up, and you'll still get in trouble for doing the fun stuff an adult is allowed to do.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 10:52am by lolgaxe
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#518 Apr 09 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Frankly, until a court decides that Martin should be considered an adult, I'm going to continue to consider him a minor.
If Martin killed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd robbed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd stolen something he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd been in a fight he'd be treated as an adult. I can't really think of a case where he wouldn't be treated as an adult, excluding the purchase and consumption of alcohol. The only difference is that, in this case he's the victim, and calling him a minor helps subtly sway opinion towards automatic presumption of innocence.

17 is a crappy age. Legally you'll be treated as an adult should you mess up, and you'll still get in trouble for doing the fun stuff an adult is allowed to do.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 10:52am by lolgaxe


And you still don't have any of the authority over your own life that you'll get at 18. People wonder why teenagers are so unhappy...
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#519 Apr 09 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Frankly, until a court decides that Martin should be considered an adult, I'm going to continue to consider him a minor.
If Martin killed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd robbed someone, he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd stolen something he'd be treated as an adult. If he'd been in a fight he'd be treated as an adult. I can't really think of a case where he wouldn't be treated as an adult, excluding the purchase and consumption of alcohol. The only difference is that, in this case he's the victim, and calling him a minor helps subtly sway opinion towards automatic presumption of innocence.
Martin is was a minor. If that sways you to believe him innocent that's your issue. Others might view 'minors' as trouble-making immature dolts and so it would bolster the argument of guilt - that's their issue.

To call him an adult would be inaccurate.






Edited, Apr 9th 2012 7:23pm by Elinda
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#520 Apr 09 2012 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
To call him an adult would be inaccurate.
To constantly refer to him as a minor when discussing legal precedence is a lot more inaccurate.
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#521 Apr 09 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
To call him an adult would be inaccurate.
To constantly refer to him as a minor when discussing legal precedence is a lot more inaccurate.


Isn't he so unless a hypothetical court were to deem otherwise? I don't know much about this stuff, but I was under the impression that it's the circumstances of a crime which get a minor tried as an adult. In the absence of those criminal actions, there'd be no rationale for changing his status.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 2:07pm by Eske
#522 Apr 09 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
To call him an adult would be inaccurate.
To constantly refer to him as a minor when discussing legal precedence is a lot more inaccurate.

Huh, he was 17 wasn't he?

I can see your point about using specific words to sway an argument, but a minor is a minor - it is the legal term for a person under 18. If you wanted to play with people's heartstrings I'd probably use more descriptive terms like young, innocent, baby-faced, child, etc.





Edited, Apr 9th 2012 8:12pm by Elinda
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#523 Apr 09 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
To call him an adult would be inaccurate.
To constantly refer to him as a minor when discussing legal precedence is a lot more inaccurate.
Isn't he so unless a hypothetical court were to deem otherwise? I don't know much about this stuff, but I was under the impression that it's the circumstances of a crime which get a minor tried as an adult. In the absence of those criminal actions, there'd be no rationale for changing his status.
The point is that in this particular case it's an irrelevant label meant only to emotionally sway the audience. Martin's being 17 wouldn't change any charges Zimmerman might face, nor would they increase or decrease sentencing. It's basically going out of your way to say the tires on the car are Michelins when the case is about drunk driving.
Elinda wrote:
If you wanted to play with people's heartstrings I'd probably use more descriptive terms like young, innocent, baby-faced, child, etc.
Except it does play on heartstrings in a more subtle manner. Maybe it's too subtle even for you, but any first year law student can recognize it. If you really don't want to play emotions, then call him as he is according to this case and how the law works: A person.

Like I said, 17 is a crappy age when the age of majority in most states is 18. You'll almost always be treated as an adult when you mess up, and you'll have plenty of chances to mess up when you're not allowed to do most of anything adults are entitled to.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 2:31pm by lolgaxe
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#524 Apr 09 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
To call him an adult would be inaccurate.
To constantly refer to him as a minor when discussing legal precedence is a lot more inaccurate.
Isn't he so unless a hypothetical court were to deem otherwise? I don't know much about this stuff, but I was under the impression that it's the circumstances of a crime which get a minor tried as an adult. In the absence of those criminal actions, there'd be no rationale for changing his status.
The point is that in this particular case it's an irrelevant label meant only to emotionally sway the audience. Martin's being 17 wouldn't change any charges Zimmerman might face, nor would they increase or decrease sentencing. It's basically going out of your way to say the tires on the car are Michelins when the case is about drunk driving.
Elinda wrote:
If you wanted to play with people's heartstrings I'd probably use more descriptive terms like young, innocent, baby-faced, child, etc.
Except it does play on heartstrings in a more subtle manner. Maybe it's too subtle even for you, but any first year law student can recognize it. If you really don't want to play emotions, then call him as he is according to this case and how the law works: A person.

Like I said, 17 is a crappy age when the age of majority in most states is 18. You'll almost always be treated as an adult when you mess up, and you'll have plenty of chances to mess up when you're not allowed to do most of anything adults are entitled to.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 2:31pm by lolgaxe
No, maybe it's only subtle for you. Maybe not everyone equates minor to innocent.

How about if we call Martin a juvenile. Is that going to make people feel more or less sorry for him?

Of course if you're worried about giving too much away, maybe we shouldn't even refer to Martin as a him.

Why even mention that Martin is a person. I mean then we really feel sorry for him.

Zimmerman just shot this thing. No biggie - go back to bed.



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#525 Apr 09 2012 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Zimmerman just shot this thing. No biggie - go back to bed.
That doesn't show your emotional attachment to the label at all. Proves my point nicely though.
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#526 Apr 09 2012 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Zimmerman just shot this thing. No biggie - go back to bed.
That doesn't show your emotional attachment to the label at all. Proves my point nicely though.

Your point being don't call a spade a spade if you can just call it a playing card?

Maybe people should get emotional over a kid that was gunned down for no reason.
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