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#377 Mar 30 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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Also note where this took place--it was down a concrete path. Zimmerman's account was that he got out to check a street sign and was jumped when he turned his back. I'd really like to know how they got down that path, because I doubt Martin dragged him there. More likely is that Martin went down the path because he was afraid of the car following him, knowing it couldn't, and then Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and continued on foot.

Who initiated the conflict at that point, I don't care. But you'd be an absolute dumbass if, in that situation, you didn't assume the person following you wasn't a threat. They've gone well past the point of acceptable disbelief.
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#378 Mar 30 2012 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also note where this took place--it was down a concrete path. Zimmerman's account was that he got out to check a street sign and was jumped when he turned his back. I'd really like to know how they got down that path, because I doubt Martin dragged him there. More likely is that Martin went down the path because he was afraid of the car following him, knowing it couldn't, and then Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and continued on foot.


Holy f'ing ****! Really? His car was parked and idling. You can hear it in the **** tape of the call to police. You can then hear him getting out of his car. He was not chasing Martin with his **** car! He was parked and watching Martin walking up the street towards him. Martin ran into the complex. Zimmerman followed him (no one is denying this). Zimmerman lost track of Martin and started walking along the concrete path back to his car. That's when Martin approached him from behind, some words were said, and then (according to Zimmerman) he was attacked by Martin.

Zimmerman at no point said he "got out of his car to check a street sign". There was some information early on that said that Zimmerman said he turned to look at a street sign right before being attacked. But once again, your own idiotic assumption that he was chasing Martin while in his car makes you adopt yet another stupid assumption.

He was not in his car. He was following Martin on foot. If he turned to check a street sign right before being attacked, he was on foot when he did it. WTF? You and your stupid bit with the **** car. I've asked you repeatedly to provide a source for your claim that Zimmerman chased Martin while in his car. Yet instead of doing so, or dropping the assumption, you just keep heaping more and more stupid assumptions on top of that one.

Do you realize that once you drop the assumption that Zimmerman was in his car, every single part of the timeline makes sense? Wow. Just wow.

Quote:
Who initiated the conflict at that point, I don't care.


So you're saying that even if Martin did initiate the fight, it would still mean that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? Maybe you are so wrapped up in your false outrage to think this matters, but to most people, and to the law itself, this is the single critical point. If Martin initiated the fight, then he is at fault, and Zimmerman acted in self defense. If Zimmerman started it, then he can't claim self defense.

Quote:
But you'd be an absolute dumbass if, in that situation, you didn't assume the person following you wasn't a threat. They've gone well past the point of acceptable disbelief.


Disbelief in what? If Martin ran away from Zimmerman initially (with Zimmerman following on foot), then Zimmerman loses Martin and heads back to his car, and then Martin comes back and attacks Zimmerman, then your entire claim fails completely. There's nothing inconsistent or outside the range of acceptable belief there. If Martin was legitimately scared that Zimmerman was some kind of crazy person coming after him, why did he circle back around? Why did he come after Zimmerman?


What you should be finding increasingly hard to believe is that Martin acted purely out of legitimate fear of Zimmerman. You keep inventing details to make this seem more likely, but they aren't true. If Martin really thought that Zimmerman was a criminal stalking him and intending him harm, why not call 911 himself? Martin's actions are *not* consistent with a scared kid just trying to get home from the store without being attacked by some crazed stalker. His actions are very consistent with a hoodlum roaming the area looking for something to steal, realizing someone has spotted him, and then circling back to punish that person for daring to interrupt his criminal activities.


I fully admit that's speculation on my part. But it fits far more with the evidence and information we have than any theory I'm hearing you toss out. You just keep trying to poke holes in Zimmerman's account, but you do so by assuming things that have not been established, and all the while refuse to account for Martin's actions. He clearly was not just walking straight home, right? He clearly could have simply run away but didn't. He clearly could have called the police if he really thought his life was in danger, but didn't. At what point do you conclude that the assumptions you've built up about Martin might just be wrong? Pretty much nothing he was doing that night fits with the claim that he was just an innocent kid trying to get home from the store.


And once you abandon the assumption that Martin was just an innocent kid trying to get home, Zimmerman's story becomes much more believable. It's your own irrational insistence on sticking with completely unfounded assumptions that cause you to do this. Drop the assumptions and look at the facts. They tell a completely different story than the one you want to hear.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 8:38pm by gbaji
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#379 Mar 30 2012 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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You can hear him getting out of the car, but you can't hear the racial slur?

Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol
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#380 Mar 30 2012 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You can hear him getting out of the car, but you can't hear the racial slur?


This is strange because I'm 99% certain that a few pages ago you were making the point that because Zimmerman got out of his car to chase Martin that meant he was the aggressor and couldn't claim self defense. Now you're claiming he never got out of his car at all? Your argument is all over the **** place.

It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.

I wont hold my breath though.
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#381 Mar 30 2012 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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#382 Mar 30 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.


Can we ban for stupid yet?
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#383 Mar 30 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is strange because I'm 99% certain that a few pages ago you were making the point that because Zimmerman got out of his car to chase Martin that meant he was the aggressor and couldn't claim self defense. Now you're claiming he never got out of his car at all? Your argument is all over the **** place.


No, that has never been my argument. Nor have I ever once seen that posted in this thread. You're just an imbecile.

And no, that is not my claim. At all. It's a straw man, and a pathetic one at that.

What I have argued is quite simple, and has not changed.

1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.

What we don't know is:
1. How far down the footpath the fight occurred.
2. Who started the fight.

An answer to one could help to discredit Zimmerman's story, but could otherwise have no bearing on it.
An answer to the second could also help discredit Zimmerman's story, but due to his prior actions (stalking Martin), invalidates self-defense even if Martin initiated the attack. Why? Because Martin had a perfectly legitimate reason to fear for his life at that point. A truck follows you for several minutes, you manage to lose it, then it parks right near where you are hiding and a man exits it (with a weapon that is potentially visible)?

I'd be ******* terrified.
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#384 Mar 31 2012 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.


Can we ban for stupid yet?


If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.
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#385 Mar 31 2012 at 1:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.


That much I agree with. The racial slur I wasn't sure about, so I slowed it down and looped the section in question. To me, it's clearly "punks" , not "coons". I've included a link to it below.

If you don't trust just anything you find on the web, it's easy enough to make your own copy using free software. I used Net Video Hunter http://netvideohunter.com/ to grab the video. Then RZ MP3 http://www.rzaudioconverter.com/ to convert the video to MP3. You can then slow it down with Audacity http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ .

Note: I used Cool Edit Pro, because it introduces less artifacts that Audacity, but Cool Edit isn't free, or even made anymore.

Here's the link to the audio. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/70187986/FPobvious.mp3
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#386 Apr 01 2012 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.


I'll jump in for a bit, I personally feel this is a tragedy of circumstance and I have more sympathy for the Martin family than Zimmerman simply due to the fact that Trayvon was killed & Zimmerman wasnt.

However,.... the thing I take issue with & what saddens me most is the apparent need for division & hatred to be built on a terrible foundation like this.

How will that help anyone ? there have been apparent inconsistencies coming from both sides and unless you were there, you really dont know what happened.

Troubling to me is: 1) how Zimmermans "he looks black" was played over and over out of context without the previous question by the dispatcher on the phone
"is he black, hispanic or white"

2) that initial coverage all indicated Martin was "just walking down the street" when now it appears he was maybe cutting between the houses (which at night is generally called "Prowling")- (& it wouldnt be uncommon for a gated community HOA to have "stick to the lighted paths" in their CC&R)- (which Trayvon admittedly might not have known)

3) no mention of the fact that Zimmerman was handcuffed & taken in by police following incident.... (which subsequently provided the video showing no apparent injuries to Zimmerman) - (although he may have been cleaned up by paramedics)

4) the insistence on calling Zimmerman "White" although he speaks spanish (& english) & apparently identifies himself as hispanic at least some of the time (even though anyone in the know understands that racial harmony between Black & Brown is no better than White & Black)- (especially in places like Calif. Fla. AZ where immigrant and minority communities are struggling side by side) This fact especially points to an agenda of divisiveness.

5) Would Zimmerman be allowed to carry "less than lethal" weapon in that area & capacity ? some areas restrict it differently than firearms due to its relatively recent appearance. (and different training & liability issues)

6) the consistent use of non-contemporary photos of both parties...... long after newer ones were found . Anyone not willing to admit that these photos portray Martin innocently & Zimmerman like a thug are being dishonest. (& represents at the least very poor, if not unethical journalism)

My belief is that Trayvon Martin was a young man who MAY have been on the wrong path & experimenting with thuggery, drugs & petty crime & had a very good chance that he would straighten himself out and leave that behind as he matured (just like millions before him have) ( including me)

And that Zimmerman MAY HAVE BEEN an overzealous wanna-be who would have never had a problem like this if the two hadnt met when & where they did....but who ultimately had good intentions and not much help from other residents of his gated community. (which obviously is a place for fearful or at least security conscious people)
This type of situation is exactly why most neighborhood patrols, Guardian Angels, & in fact most police, travel at the least in pairs.

What if Martin would have waved or nodded at Zimmerman & talked to him instead of trying to evade him ? what if Zimmerman would have felt a little more comfortable in confronting him ? we'll never know unfortunately.

Here in So. Cal we had an incident, right after this one, in which a hispanic victim falsly claimed he was robbed at gunpoint by 2 blacks (immigrants are routinely targeted by gangs due to their own desire to avoid the authorities) (he also maybe felt he would get a faster response if he mentioned Guns).............. unfortunately this resulted in one of the alleged perpetrators being fatally shot by the police, & the robbery victim being arrested for manslaughter.

Just another tragedy of our times........



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#387 Apr 02 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Terrifyingspeed wrote:
Quote:
If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.


I'll jump in for a bit, I personally feel this is a tragedy of circumstance and I have more sympathy for the Martin family than Zimmerman simply due to the fact that Trayvon was killed & Zimmerman wasnt.

However,.... the thing I take issue with & what saddens me most is the apparent need for division & hatred to be built on a terrible foundation like this.

How will that help anyone ? there have been apparent inconsistencies coming from both sides and unless you were there, you really dont know what happened.

Troubling to me is: 1) how Zimmermans "he looks black" was played over and over out of context without the previous question by the dispatcher on the phone
"is he black, hispanic or white"

2) that initial coverage all indicated Martin was "just walking down the street" when now it appears he was maybe cutting between the houses (which at night is generally called "Prowling")- (& it wouldnt be uncommon for a gated community HOA to have "stick to the lighted paths" in their CC&R)- (which Trayvon admittedly might not have known)

3) no mention of the fact that Zimmerman was handcuffed & taken in by police following incident.... (which subsequently provided the video showing no apparent injuries to Zimmerman) - (although he may have been cleaned up by paramedics)

4) the insistence on calling Zimmerman "White" although he speaks spanish (& english) & apparently identifies himself as hispanic at least some of the time (even though anyone in the know understands that racial harmony between Black & Brown is no better than White & Black)- (especially in places like Calif. Fla. AZ where immigrant and minority communities are struggling side by side) This fact especially points to an agenda of divisiveness.

5) Would Zimmerman be allowed to carry "less than lethal" weapon in that area & capacity ? some areas restrict it differently than firearms due to its relatively recent appearance. (and different training & liability issues)

6) the consistent use of non-contemporary photos of both parties...... long after newer ones were found . Anyone not willing to admit that these photos portray Martin innocently & Zimmerman like a thug are being dishonest. (& represents at the least very poor, if not unethical journalism)

My belief is that Trayvon Martin was a young man who MAY have been on the wrong path & experimenting with thuggery, drugs & petty crime & had a very good chance that he would straighten himself out and leave that behind as he matured (just like millions before him have) ( including me)

And that Zimmerman MAY HAVE BEEN an overzealous wanna-be who would have never had a problem like this if the two hadnt met when & where they did....but who ultimately had good intentions and not much help from other residents of his gated community. (which obviously is a place for fearful or at least security conscious people)
This type of situation is exactly why most neighborhood patrols, Guardian Angels, & in fact most police, travel at the least in pairs.

What if Martin would have waved or nodded at Zimmerman & talked to him instead of trying to evade him ? what if Zimmerman would have felt a little more comfortable in confronting him ? we'll never know unfortunately.

Here in So. Cal we had an incident, right after this one, in which a hispanic victim falsly claimed he was robbed at gunpoint by 2 blacks (immigrants are routinely targeted by gangs due to their own desire to avoid the authorities) (he also maybe felt he would get a faster response if he mentioned Guns).............. unfortunately this resulted in one of the alleged perpetrators being fatally shot by the police, & the robbery victim being arrested for manslaughter.

Just another tragedy of our times........



Soooo, you just thought you add to the division and hatred by passing your own judgement on the two individuals and leaving behind yet more gossip in hopes of bolstering that opinion?

A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.

This particular circumstance is divisive as it's exactly the type of scenario that sends out a big "told you so" to short-sighted conservative lawmakers.
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#388 Apr 02 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.
A person was shot by another person. The age of the individuals is an irrelevant fact. Just being a teen doesn't make him automatically innocent of any or all wrongdoings should they exist, just like being an adult doesn't make one automatically guilty.
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#389 Apr 02 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: lol Like there's no short-sighted liberal law makers.
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#390 Apr 02 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently, independent forensic experts have been confirming that the screams on the 911 calls do not match Zimmerman's voice. The lawyer's stance has been that they were his client's, not Martin's.

I dunno how Florida's legal system works, but the experts in question confirmed that their results should be admissible evidence in court.

Also of note, this wasn't some "expert" in his garage. "Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence" is the one giving the testimony to the news station.
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#391 Apr 02 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Smiley: lol Like there's no short-sighted liberal law makers.

I was speaking based on the assumption that it was the conservatives that voted in the 'stand your ground' legislation. That might be a bad assumption, still I never claimed there were no short-sighted liberal law-makers. You mis-comprehend sir.

It's monday though, no one should be thinking too hard.






Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 7:14pm by Elinda
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#392 Apr 02 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.
A person was shot by another person. The age of the individuals is an irrelevant fact. Just being a teen doesn't make him automatically innocent of any or all wrongdoings should they exist, just like being an adult doesn't make one automatically guilty.
Geese, I didn't delineate between relevant or not - you did. It is a fact that a teen was shot.

Besides, in the eyes of the law a child and an adult are two very different things. I bet if it ever were to go to court, the fact that the victim is a minor is relevant.






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#393 Apr 02 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
What I have argued is quite simple, and has not changed.

1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.


I'm going to ask again if you've actually listened to the call Zimmerman made (which was *not* a 911 call btw). He is very clearly sitting in his car while parked the whole time. Martin walks toward him during the call. That can't possibly happen if Zimmerman is following Martin in his car. Listen to the background noise. He's not in a moving vehicle during the call.

Please stop repeating blatantly false information. That's all I'm asking here. If something is speculation, then say it's speculation. Don't insist that it's a "fact".

Quote:
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.


Yup. This stuff you got right.

Quote:
What we don't know is:
1. How far down the footpath the fight occurred.
2. Who started the fight.


Correct. Actually "we" don't know this (how far down the path it occurred). Presumably the police do, since they know exactly where the fight occurred, where the shot was fired, where Martin's body was found, and where Zimmerman's vehicle was in relation to that.

Quote:
An answer to one could help to discredit Zimmerman's story...


I think the fact that you are searching for things to discredit Zimmerman's story speaks volumes about your perception of this. You should look at all information you can and *then* decide if the whole of that information supports Zimmerman's account, discredits it, or doesn't affect it at all.

Quote:
An answer to the second could also help discredit Zimmerman's story, but due to his prior actions (stalking Martin), invalidates self-defense even if Martin initiated the attack. Why? Because Martin had a perfectly legitimate reason to fear for his life at that point. A truck follows you for several minutes, you manage to lose it, then it parks right near where you are hiding and a man exits it (with a weapon that is potentially visible)?


Again, your problem is you're looking only for evidence which might discredit Zimmerman's story (and speculating wildly about events which *could* do so). You're not looking at the large volume of facts we have which directly support the story Zimmerman told police.

And you still seem to want to insert this assumption that Zimmerman followed Martin in his car (stalked even!), apparently as a means to justify Martin's actions and condemn Zimmerman's no matter what the actual facts are. First off, even if Zimmerman had followed Martin in his car, that does not give Martin a legal reason to attack Zimmerman. If he did that, he is at fault and Zimmerman's actions were absolutely self defense. Secondly, you don't even have anything beyond wild speculation that this supposed stalking of Martin while Zimmerman was in his car happened.

I've asked you several times to provide some evidence or source for this claim. You have still refused to do so. Zimmerman's call does *not* support that claim. If anything it refutes it. Do you have *anything* to support your claim that Zimmerman followed Martin while in his car? Because a whole **** of a lot of your argument seems to rest on this claim, but I've yet to see any reason to assume that this happened.

Do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 1:59pm by gbaji
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#394 Apr 02 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Apparently, independent forensic experts have been confirming that the screams on the 911 calls do not match Zimmerman's voice. The lawyer's stance has been that they were his client's, not Martin's.

I dunno how Florida's legal system works, but the experts in question confirmed that their results should be admissible evidence in court.

Also of note, this wasn't some "expert" in his garage. "Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence" is the one giving the testimony to the news station.


If that does turn out to be correct, it would be a big piece of evidence. However, I wouldn't leap to conclusions either. I'm not an audio forensics expert, but it seems like an easy counter for why there's only a 48% match between the screaming heard in the 911 call and Zimmerman's voice in the call to dispatchers is because Zimmerman's nose was broken (or at least injured sufficiently to bleed) between the two. Also, he was lying on the ground with someone on top of him whilst allegedly screaming. Both of those can significantly alter the sound of someone's voice.

The second expert's methods were just plain moronic IMO. It couldn't have been Zimmerman because it sounded like a teen screaming? I've heard some big guys scream like little girls before.
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#395 Apr 02 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."
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#397 Apr 02 2012 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Besides, in the eyes of the law a child and an adult are two very different things.
In Florida there are "Close-In-Age" exemptions. Martin was 17, so he'd more than likely be considered an adult in the eyes of the law.
Elinda wrote:
I bet if it ever were to go to court, the fact that the victim is a minor is relevant.
That's a chump's bet. Of course they are. They'd beat it into the ground in an attempt to differentiate their client from their opponent. By constantly referring to to the victim as a child you're subtly implying that there is an automatic innocence associated with it. The same way during murder trials the defense will constantly try to mention how the accused is an active member of a community or a family man/woman, son, daughter, etc etc. Just because they're true doesn't mean they make a real difference on the activities that got them there.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 5:26pm by lolgaxe
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#398 Apr 02 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."


This was asked after Zimmerman got out of the car.
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#399 Apr 02 2012 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."


After he got out of his car and after Martin had already run off. Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


Was there a time machine involved in your version of events?
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#400 Apr 02 2012 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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After he got out of his car and after Martin had already run off. Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


Of course he was justified to flee someone pursuing him. are you seriously arguing he was not justified fleeing from someone (who is not a police officer) who had been following him in a car, and was now after him on foot. Regardless of what he was doing he is completely justified to flee.

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#401 Apr 02 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


And once again you make a fool of yourself.
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