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#602 Apr 10 2012 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
gbaji wrote:
We don't know who attacked first, but as I've said repeatedly, we can't assume it was Zimmerman.


And I'm not suggesting that we assume it was Zimmerman.


Numerous people have though. And frankly, absent that assumption then there's no argument at all: Zimmerman acted in self defense.

Quote:
I'm saying that we can't state that it was Martin. How are you still not getting this?


I am getting this. Do you get that given the abundance of physical and eye witness evidence at the scene, that the case is automatically ruled self defense *unless* there is sufficient evidence to prove otherwise? I do not have to prove that Martin started the fight to prove that Zimmerman acted in self defense. I only need to prove that at the moment Zimmerman fired his gun, he was acting in self defense. And there's tons of evidence which supports that position.

In order to prove that Zimmerman *didn't* act in self defense, you must show two things:

1. That he initiated the fight (or "provoked it" in some legally defined way)

*and*

2. He either never attempted to end the fight *or* was never put into a position where he could not escape.


That's not conjecture on my part. That's what the law says.

The problem is that the evidence about the moments just prior to Zimerman firing his gun appear to rule out the second case in number 2 above. He was put into a position where he could not escape and had exhausted all reasonable options to avoid further injury to himself without using his gun. So this means that it doesn't actually matter if he started the fight or not. I mean, it does from an esoteric point of view, I suppose. We can certainly use that to speculate about how the law should be, or what we think is right, and whatnot. But from a legal point of view, it doesn't matter.

The moment Zimmerman found himself flat on his back with an assailant pinning him down and continuing to punch him with no one coming to help remove the assailant, he was justified to use lethal force to defend himself. That's all the law cares about when asking whether this was self defense. And that's why the police didn't arrest him. It's why the DA didn't press charges. Because according to the law, what he did was clearly within the bounds of self defense.
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#603 Apr 10 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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I think I recall that Trayvon's 911 call was actually a misreport. I haven't heard anything about it, in any case. What we have are Zimmerman's call, and the call from a family nearby that occurred during the actual confrontation (which is what the forensics analysts were testing).

[EDIT]

This was just nit-picking, I agree with your point.

Also:
Quote:
Numerous people have though. And frankly, absent that assumption then there's no argument at all: Zimmerman acted in self defense.


HA. No, we don't. The only argument you have for that is by assuming that he was acting in self defense. And that doesn't strike you as absurdly circular?

We cannot make ANY assumptions about who started the fight, nor can we assume who was fighting in self-defense. We can attach probabilities to them based on what little we know, but that's all.



Edited, Apr 10th 2012 9:24pm by idiggory
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#604 Apr 10 2012 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
I think something that is getting lost in all of this needs to be explained to gbaji.

When the protesters are screaming "JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON" they're not calling for Zimmeron to be hanged at dawn.


They're calling for him to be arrested, despite there being no evidence that he broke the law. You can't just force the police to arrest people because you've got an angry mob who demand it. That's not how any sane legal system should work. And you **** well should know this. You're asking for the police to do exactly what civil rights movements have been fighting against for decades.

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They're calling for him to be properly tried in a court of law.


Sure. But a trial is a whole bunch of steps down the legal process though. They're demanding that we skip all the steps in between. Those are important steps because they are what protect us all from abusive police powers. The police *can't* just arrest and charge people without sufficient cause. That's the whole point. And no matter how strongly you feel about this particular case, it's still wrong to bypass those rules.

Quote:
All everyone has to go on is conflicting bits of Zimmerman's account, witness accounts, fuzzy 911 calls (don't forget - Trayvon also called 911 during this whole mess because he too was apparently freaked out), terrible police investigatory work (no autopsy? really?), and the entire media circus that has developed around the case.


Um... Get your facts straight first. Trayvon Martin never called 911. Where'd you hear that? And where'd you hear that no autopsy was done? Of course there was. It just hasn't been released to the public because they don't normally release such things to the public while the investigation is ongoing. You're repeating wild speculation.

And no. The witness accounts were surprisingly consistent. Every single witness who actually saw the confrontation reported seeing someone matching Martin's description on top of another person beating him. Those who saw the person on the ground being beaten by Martin all identified him by description as Zimmerman. All agreed that it was the person on the ground (Not Martin) who was yelling for help.


Quote:
If Zimmerman is tried before a jury, or at the very least, before a judge, and he is still found innocent of wrongdoing, then we have on our hands a tragedy born of misunderstanding, but Zimmerman's innocence will be vindicated and he can get on with his life.


No. It doesn't matter if he's tried before a jury or not. The mob has spoken and is already angry. If the prosecutor chooses not to press charges, there will be riots. If she does press charges and a judge tosses the case for lack of evidence, there will be riots. And if this does, through an absolute travesty of justice, end out in a full trial before a jury and Zimmerman is acquitted, there will be riots.

That's what will happen. Because this isn't about justice. It's not about the law. It's about angry irrational people whose opinions are about 10% fact and 90% wild rumor, but will never ever under any circumstances admit or acknowledge that they were wrong. So anything other than Zimmerman being found guilty will be interpreted by them as a miscarriage of justice. It'll be proof of racism. It'll be proof that a black man really can't get justice. ****. Fill in the blanks here if you want.

Again, that's not justice. That's an angry mob.

Quote:
But if Zimmerman is found guilty, we have evidence that the SYG law in Florida needs to be clarified and can't be used as an excuse to shoot the scary black kid with the skittles and the Arizona tea and the hoodie.


If he's found guilty, it'll be because there's either some magical evidence to this case that has managed to be kept hidden from the public entirely (yes, I'm allowing for this possibility, no matter how slim it appears) *or* because the justice system failed miserably to apply its own rules and laws.

Quote:
Either way, Trayvon will have gotten justice. Is that too much to ask?


If in the name of "justice" you require the arrest and trial of a clearly innocent man? Yes. It's way to much to ask. If there's evidence that Zimmerman acted in anything other than self defense when he pulled that trigger, then I absolutely agree that he should be arrested and charged and tried before a jury. But so far, I have seen absolutely nothing that constitutes such evidence. Lots of people insisting that he should be charged. Lots of people insisting that he must have done it. But there's a suspicious lack of actual evidence supporting that course of action.


Let me repeat. In our legal system, there are a whole set of steps that have to be taken before you get to a trial. And the burden is always on the prosecution to show that they've met the requirements for that step before moving on. You can demand a trial by jury all day long, but the legal system isn't anywhere near that point, and frankly, unless there is some evidence to this case that we're all completely unaware of that the police have, I don't see how they can proceed any further than the investigation.

I'm not taking Zimmerman's "side" here. I'm taking the side of the law and the evidence. Equal justice for all, right? But it seems like some want unequal justice when they are angry about something. And that's just a **** poor reason to move forward with this.
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#605 Apr 10 2012 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
gbaji wrote:
We don't know who attacked first, but as I've said repeatedly, we can't assume it was Zimmerman.


And I'm not suggesting that we assume it was Zimmerman.


Numerous people have though. And frankly, absent that assumption then there's no argument at all: Zimmerman acted in self defense.


What kind of crazy logic is that? We simply don't know either way. We need not make any assumptions. And for that matter, those handling the case shouldn't, either. There is no justification for certainty.

To the rest: I'm not talking about the legal case. Never was. You need to learn how to follow a single person's comments when you debate them. I've been tallking about the certainty with which you assert that you know what happened that night.

You don't know. Nobody does. So stop purporting to.
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#606 Apr 10 2012 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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They're calling for him to be arrested, despite there being no evidence that he broke the law. You can't just force the police to arrest people because you've got an angry mob who demand it. That's not how any sane legal system should work


You can't be this stupid.

You do realize that pretty much anywhere else, Zimmerman would be charged with murder. Florida is the exception here not the norm.

Zimmerman did break the law. Last time I checked, killing someone is illegal. In any sane legal system he would be charged and self defense would only come up at trial when his lawyer would present an affirmative defense in response to the charge.

Edited, Apr 10th 2012 10:06pm by feelz
#607 Apr 10 2012 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
Numerous people have though. And frankly, absent that assumption then there's no argument at all: Zimmerman acted in self defense.


HA. No, we don't. The only argument you have for that is by assuming that he was acting in self defense.


And (at least) three eye witness reports all describing a situation which matches the legal requirement for self defense

What the ****? You keep ignoring this. It's kind of important though. Stop pretending that I have no reason to believe that it was self defense than my assumption that it was. You have yet to once address the issue of the eye witness statements, choosing instead to just pretend you didn't hear about them and continue arguing.

Makes you look kinda silly IMO.

Quote:
We cannot make ANY assumptions about who started the fight...


Correct. But arguably irrelevant when determining if Zimmerman's act of firing his gun was self defense. As I've already argued multiple times by quoting the actual applicable legal statute. At some point, you really need to have more than just insistence to counter the facts I've been providing to support my argument. So far, you've failed to do this.


Quote:
...nor can we assume who was fighting in self-defense.


Yeah. We kinda can. I've explained repeatedly why we can do this. You just keep insisting on ignoring it.


Quote:
We can attach probabilities to them based on what little we know, but that's all.


Sure. Technically, it's always about probability. There's always the chance that between the time when the eye witnesses saw Martin beating Zimmerman with Zimmerman yelling for help, and Zimmerman firing his gun, Zimmerman might have gained the upper hand, pushed Martin off of him, pointed his gun at him, put him in a position of helplessness, during which Martin was the one yelling for help, and then shot him in cold blood. And it's possible that none of the eye witnesses happened to see of hear any of this. And it's possible that the ear witnesses who all heard just one person yelling for help right until the shot failed to hear the first part and only heard the final part. And it's possible that this somehow happened in a way that resulted in Martin still falling to the ground face first from the gunshot. And it's possible that all of this happened in the very brief time period between when one of the eye witnesses saw them in the first position, closed his door, picked up his phone and called 911 but *before* connecting fully (his call happens after the shot, so we're talking probably less than 10-15 seconds of time here).

I mean, it's possible. We have no evidence that this happened, but it is possible. Astronomically unlikely. But technically, it's still possible. Sadly, our law requires prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and I think this falls well outside that range. Don't you?


But if we're assessing probabilities, it's far more likely that the situation did not change in the brief period between when the eye witnesses saw Zimmerman pinned on the ground by Martin. It's most likely that after that one witness shut his door, Zimmerman realized that no one was going to come to his aid and realized that his only option was to fire his gun. This scenario does not require any additional assumptions to occur. It fits all the facts *except* the claims by some of those who heard the cries for help that they came from a younger man, so they must have been Martin's. But isn't it just more likely that the came to that assumption after the fact than that two separate voices were heard by two different sets of witnesses during such a short period of time?


****. If the guy who shut his door's statement is correct, then it *has* to be Zimmerman who was yelling for help. The one call in which we can hear the yelling in the background and then the shot lasts for like 30+ seconds (IIRC, please correct me if I'm wrong). That's too long a time period. The voice heard on that tape has to be the same one that man saw outside his door. And he very clearly described the person on the ground who was yelling for help as George Zimmerman.


I just keep going through the combination of all of those statements we've heard and all the bits of information we have from the media about this, and the only story that adds up is Zimmerman acting in self defense. There just isn't enough time for anything else to have happened here. There aren't any statements that could match up with any scenario I can come up with which can put Zimmerman in a position of control (or even the ability to escape) when he fired that gun. Again, this doesn't rule it out entirely. But IMO, the odds are incredibly high that this was self defense and incredibly low that it wasn't.

I certainly can't see how we can possibly go forward with legal charges unless there's a whole **** of a lot of evidence we're missing that could change that assessment. And if the police had such a thing, don't you think they would have filed charges weeks ago? The speculation of racism among the police, the DA, the state, etc can (or should) only carry you so far in this. IMO, we've gone well past that point.



Edited, Apr 10th 2012 9:24pm by idiggory [/quote]
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#608 Apr 10 2012 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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feelz wrote:
Quote:
They're calling for him to be arrested, despite there being no evidence that he broke the law. You can't just force the police to arrest people because you've got an angry mob who demand it. That's not how any sane legal system should work


You can't be this stupid.


Correct. I'm not. Because I have bothered to read the law, and you apparently have not.

Quote:
You do realize that pretty much anywhere else, Zimmerman would be charged with murder. Florida is the exception here not the norm.


No. It's the norm. First off, the most relevant parts to this case aren't even parts of SYG laws. All states have some form of self defense laws which allow for lethal force in certain conditions. I'm 90% sure that all 50 states in the US have self defense laws which allow for such force in the case you are on your back pinned by an assailant who is beating you in the head.

Um... And something like 30 states have Stand Your Ground laws as well. So even to the extent that law may apply, Florida is not in the minority. It's in the majority. Try checking your facts next time.

Quote:
Zimmerman did break the law. Last time I checked, killing someone is illegal.


Unless in self defense. And guess what? We have a process to make that determination. That process is the police gathering evidence and a prosecutor from the DA's office making a determination. That's what happened here. You seem to want to simplify the law to it doing whatever you want, but that's not how it works.


Quote:
In any sane legal system he would be charged and self defense would only come up at trial when his lawyer would present an affirmative defense in response to the charge.


Sigh...

That's not how self defense cases work. In cases where self defense is obvious based on the evidence, charges are normally not filed. In the same way that when you are in an accident and someone dies, you don't automatically proceed to a jury trial for vehicular manslaughter unless there's evidence that it wasn't really an accident. You'd be laughed out of any sane legal system for insisting that since the person admitted to killing the other person with his car, he must be charged with manslaughter, and only then can his attorney bring up that it was an accident.


No sane legal system works the way you are claiming they should. And if you step back from the emotions of this particular case and look at the law objectively, you'd see why.

Edited, Apr 10th 2012 7:11pm by gbaji
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#609 Apr 10 2012 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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On that note, rumor mill has it that Zimmerman has fled FL.

Since he has yet to be charged with a crime, that's not illegal, but it's certainly eyebrow raising. Wherever he's holed up, he has internet access at least, as his website posted an update earlier today.
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#610 Apr 10 2012 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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I certainly can't see how we can possibly go forward with legal charges unless there's a whole **** of a lot of evidence we're missing that could change that assessment.


Hi, that's not how THAT works in Florida or anywhere else. Self Defense is an Affirmative Legal Defense against being convicted of murder or whatever lesser charge. It's unrelated to bringing charges. Now we all know that you're racist and all that, so obviously you're going to support Zimmerman regardless (even though the bullet apparently left *************** hypocrite) but the idea that this shouldn't get into the legal system is beyond preposterous. Maybe the self defense thing is totally legit, I have no idea, I haven't followed the case very closely.

I mean an astronaut didn't drive anywhere in a diaper, and as far as I know a blonde woman isn't missing? What's obvious is that charges should be brought. there's clearly probable cause, unless there's some blockbuster thing no one is aware of, like video of the black kid raping Zimmerman's dog or something. I think I understand this much, though? Guy legally carrying firearm in his own gated community on neighborhood watch (really? Florida must have ****** gated communities) kills other unarmed guy, who is legally in same gated community and who may or may not have physically attacked because....well....I'm not sure anyone has a theory. I guess because he's black, and we all know how they go to gated communities to visit friends and then jump on guys with guns amirite?

Now we all know how strong these massive black bucks are, and we have to assume that he probably got a whiff of White Woman left on Zimmerman's clothes. You know that drives them into a murmurous frenzy. So while this enormous 6'3 140 pound giant was flailing away wildly with
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#611 Apr 10 2012 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes? Yes? Don't leave us in suspense.

Clearly you haven't been following the case if you think Zimmerman had the smell of a woman anywhere near him.

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#612 Apr 10 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes? Yes? Don't leave us in suspense.

Clearly you haven't been following the case if you think Zimmerman had the smell of a woman anywhere near him.


There was more, but my pregnant wife's foot hit the keyboard while I was applying black-face and finding my straw hat, so I decided it was some sort of sign from my soon to be son, that he disapproved.

Are you implying Zimmerman is a *** fellow? Why if that's so, then as a Massachusetts Liberal ™, I may have to change my opinion entirely and declare him innocent without further investigation.
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#613 Apr 10 2012 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well... hm. Chunky, sweaty... probably not. But there is the whole wanna be a butch cop thing, so....

Gah, now I'm conflicted.
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#614 Apr 10 2012 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Um... And something like 30 states have Stand Your Ground laws as well. So even to the extent that law may apply, Florida is not in the minority. It's in the majority. Try checking your facts next time.


Sorry I forgot that in your world the U.S is the only country on the planet. In the real world there's more than one country and guess what? They have different laws! Shocking, I know.
#615 Apr 10 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
If he's found guilty, it'll be because there's either some magical evidence to this case that has managed to be kept hidden from the public entirely (yes, I'm allowing for this possibility, no matter how slim it appears)
You mean like the autopsy which, you, yourself mentioned is at yet unreleased?

I'll reiterate in case someone missed it:

per the autopsy:
Where was the entry wound? At what distance was the gun discharged from the victim?


ALSO: I'm unclear if you think this is a good law, gbaji. Can you clarify?


ALSO: ALSO: Don't just handwave away the possibility of a corrupt/racist law enforcement system in this case. Unless you are a complete fool, that is.
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#616 Apr 11 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
SYG can apply if Zimmerman is the aggressor if, at the point in the alercation when Martin was shot, he had lost the upper hand, Martin had not fled and instead pressed the fight, and Zimmerman felt in grave danger. I don't necessarily agree with that wording of the law either, but that's the way it's written.


Smiley: dubious That can't be true. It would be batsh*t crazy.

1) Pick fight
2) Start losing and kill other guy
3) ???
4) Profit!



As long as there is money in the wallet...or you start your own website I guess.
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#617 Apr 11 2012 at 7:36 AM Rating: Default
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That's not clear.
It's clear.
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#618 Apr 11 2012 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
That's not clear.
It's clear.


This exchange is going places.
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#619 Apr 11 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't just handwave away the possibility of a corrupt/racist law enforcement system in this case.


I honestly just think their incompetence gives the illusion of it. I do think Martin's race was a factor in ZImmerman's profiling of the teen as "suspicious", but they'll have a hard time proving that.
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#620 Apr 11 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
That's not clear.
It's clear.
This exchange is going places.
Why waste time?
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#621 Apr 11 2012 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Zimmerman's lawyers are now pleading with him to get back in touch with them.

You know what I bet?

I bet they realize they're going to lose with SYG and are priming themselves for an insanity defense. I mean, he did fail the psych test for the police academy...
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#622 Apr 11 2012 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Zimmerman's lawyers are now pleading with him to get back in touch with them.

You know what I bet?

I bet they realize they're going to lose with SYG and are priming themselves for an insanity defense. I mean, he did fail the psych test for the police academy...

He obviously has some paranoia issues that would be easily proven in court. Insanity plea seems like a good option.

But meh, the guy just shot an unarmed kid - it's not like he broke the law and got arrested.




Edited, Apr 11th 2012 4:25pm by Elinda
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#623 Apr 11 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
That's not clear.
It's clear.
This exchange is going places.
Why waste time?

That's not a terse assertion.
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#624 Apr 11 2012 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

Yes? Yes? Don't leave us in suspense.

Clearly you haven't been following the case if you think Zimmerman had the smell of a woman anywhere near him.


There was more, but my pregnant wife's foot hit the keyboard while I was applying black-face and finding my straw hat, so I decided it was some sort of sign from my soon to be son, that he disapproved.

Your son is probably black and didn't like you hating on the brothers.
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#625 Apr 11 2012 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Your loss.
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#626 Apr 11 2012 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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That's more like it.
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#627 Apr 11 2012 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Well, his lawyers dropped him. None of the articles I read say why. They also apparently told the Martin family lawyers that they didn't know where he was--they think he's still in the US, but don't know. Pretty sure he isn't in Florida, apparently.

The special prosecutor is also apparently going to release new info from the investigation as early as tomorrow.

In other news, Zimmerman has seriously hurt his defense against the profiling allegations. That web page he put up has pictures of graffiti voicing support for him. Graffiti on black cultural centers. Yeah...
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#628 Apr 11 2012 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Well, his lawyers dropped him. None of the articles I read say why. They also apparently told the Martin family lawyers that they didn't know where he was--they think he's still in the US, but don't know. Pretty sure he isn't in Florida, apparently.

The special prosecutor is also apparently going to release new info from the investigation as early as tomorrow.

In other news, Zimmerman has seriously hurt his defense against the profiling allegations. That web page he put up has pictures of graffiti voicing support for him. Graffiti on black cultural centers. Yeah...

The lawyers were on the Today show. They said they dropped him because it appears that HE dropped THEM first. They would call, email and text him and hasn't replied since Sunday (I think it was Sunday). They said it didn't seem like Zimmerman wanted them representing him anymore. But they're still trying to get in touch with him.
#629 Apr 11 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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At the same time, it doesn't seem like he has new representation. He tried to contact the prosecutor for the case, who refused to talk to him without his lawyers present. He hasn't reached out since, so...
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#630 Apr 11 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looks like Zimmerman will be charged this afternoon.

Typically, the prosecutor will give a broadbased description of what led to the decision and I'm expecting to hear of overlooked evidence by the police during the initial investigation as the main reason for the decision. I'm expecting a charge of manslaughter, a charge of murder in the second degree, and possibly reckless endangerment that resulted in death.

If Zimmerman is charged, it won't matter if his attorneys decide not to represent him again. He'll get appointed a public defender if no one else wants to do it.

Good luck in trying to find a fair and unbiased venue for this trial.

Edited, Apr 11th 2012 11:56am by Thumbelyna
#631 Apr 11 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thumbelyna wrote:


Good luck in trying to find a fair and unbiased venue for this trial.

Good to know the guy will presumably have his day in court. Too bad things had to get so contorted to get there.

What are the odds that Zimmerman has skipped the country?

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#632 Apr 11 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd give it about the same odds as finding twelve people in the world that haven't already judged Zimmerman.
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#633 Apr 11 2012 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Some speculation: Lawyers dropped because they knew Zimmerman was going to be charged but had already fled, and their "hey if you contact us we'll still represent you" and "he hasn't answered our emails or voicemails" was a warning shot to Zimmerman that he better buck up and answer when the police come knocking, or else it will become infinitely worse for him.
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#634 Apr 11 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zimmerman's lawyers made a statement today. They said two things drove them to drop Zimmerman as a client. First, he apparently contacted the special prosecutor's office on his own rather than going through them. Secondly, he apparently contacted Sean Hannity and spoke with him for some time about the case.
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#635 Apr 11 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Zimmerman's lawyers made a statement today. They said two things drove them to drop Zimmerman as a client. First, he apparently contacted the special prosecutor's office on his own rather than going through them. Secondly, he apparently contacted Sean Hannity and spoke with him for some time about the case.


In other words, he thinks he's Joe the Plumber. Got it.

Yeah, I'd drop him too.
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#636 Apr 11 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Zimmerman's lawyers made a statement today. They said two things drove them to drop Zimmerman as a client. First, he apparently contacted the special prosecutor's office on his own rather than going through them. Secondly, he apparently contacted Sean Hannity and spoke with him for some time about the case.


In other words, he thinks he's Joe the Plumber. Got it.

Yeah, I'd drop him too.


I don't know about that. Apparently he spoke with Hannity off the air and Hannity isn't revealing any details of the conversation until the case is closed.
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#637 Apr 11 2012 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's more to Hannity's credit for keeping mum than it is Zimmerman's. Unless he and Hannity are friends or something, I assume the reason why Zimmerman was calling him was to get a platform and not just a burning desire to shoot the shit with Sean Hannity. At that point, I wouldn't trust Zimmerman not to try some other media personality next.
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#638 Apr 11 2012 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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I honestly feel like Zimmerman was probably looking to get some airtime, judging from the fact that his wallet is apparently hurting. I can't see any other reason for it--it's not a smart move on his case unless he's desperate.

We know it can't be murder one, since the grand jury won't be involved. But pretty much anything else is on the table. I'd expect the charges that Thumbelyna mentioned, plus criminal negligence to establish precedent against SYG.
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#639 Apr 11 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If he's found guilty, it'll be because there's either some magical evidence to this case that has managed to be kept hidden from the public entirely (yes, I'm allowing for this possibility, no matter how slim it appears)
You mean like the autopsy which, you, yourself mentioned is at yet unreleased?


Sure. I fully accept that if such information exists and hasn't yet been leaked, it's quite possible that the evidence against him is much stronger that we've seen so far.

Quote:
I'll reiterate in case someone missed it:

per the autopsy:
Where was the entry wound? At what distance was the gun discharged from the victim?


Absolutely valid questions. Do you honestly believe that if the gunshot was in Martin's back and from a distance that this would not have been leaked by now? I mean, someone got a hold of security footage from the police headquarters and released that. In a case like this, where emotions run high, evidence in support of the emotional position pretty much *always* leaks. Evidence that opposes the emotional position either never does, or gets little air time.

Not like this is a conspiracy or anything, it's just human nature. You get a lot more viewers telling them stuff they want to hear than stuff that tells them they're wrong. Similarly, those with strong emotions have a willingness to find and release any information that supports their side. You honestly haven't noticed this?

Quote:
ALSO: I'm unclear if you think this is a good law, gbaji. Can you clarify?


I believe I've already written at length (twice I think) about various parts of the applicable statute and why it's good law. In this case, where many people have already formed strong opinions and assumptions, they don't like the law because it doesn't allow for what they want. But if you step back and look at broader sets of cases, it makes a **** of a lot of sense.


Quote:
ALSO: ALSO: Don't just handwave away the possibility of a corrupt/racist law enforcement system in this case. Unless you are a complete fool, that is.


There's a whole huge range between handwaving that away and assuming it must be true. Do you honestly believe that had Martin been a white kid, dressed exactly the same, doing exactly the same things, on the same night, taking the same actions, and ending with the same result (face down with a bullet hole in him), that the police would have done anything differently? If so, why? Other than a fairly circular assumption that police are racist, is there a reason to think this?


I'm quite certain that if police arrived on a scene with a dead white teen, shooter saying he was assaulted, with physical evidence to support that claim (bloody nose, wound on the back of his head, grass on his back), and three witnesses who all corroborate the same story, that they would have ruled this self defense as well. Do you honestly think otherwise? Again: Why?
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#640 Apr 11 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

I certainly can't see how we can possibly go forward with legal charges unless there's a whole **** of a lot of evidence we're missing that could change that assessment.


Hi, that's not how THAT works in Florida or anywhere else.


Hi. Yeah. It does. I already quoted the statute in question. Shall I do it again:

Quote:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).


It's a potentially career ending move for a prosecutor to charge him with a crime and end out wrong about it btw. They have a massive burden to be absolutely sure they're right before arresting Zimmerman. That's why they didn't do it initially. We'll see if the special prosecutor decides to do so and/or what charges she files. If she does, this gets really interesting.


Quote:
Self Defense is an Affirmative Legal Defense against being convicted of murder or whatever lesser charge. It's unrelated to bringing charges.


Except for the whole "immune to being arrested, detained, charged, or prosecuted" part. But hey! It's just what the **** law says Smash. Surely you know better. Smiley: laugh
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#641 Apr 11 2012 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I honestly feel like Zimmerman was probably looking to get some airtime, judging from the fact that his wallet is apparently hurting. I can't see any other reason for it--it's not a smart move on his case unless he's desperate.


I think that he realized that his lawyers advice to stay out of the media was killing him, as the other side seemed to have no problem turning this into a trial by public perception rather than one by law. To be fair, his lawyers were doing what they're supposed to do. But I can understand him being frustrated as his side is ignored in the media in favor of wild speculation against him.

Quote:
We know it can't be murder one, since the grand jury won't be involved. But pretty much anything else is on the table. I'd expect the charges that Thumbelyna mentioned, plus criminal negligence to establish precedent against SYG.


Obviously, you know my opinion. I think that if the prosecutor brings any charges at all, there must be some evidence we haven't seen that would make her take that risk. I just hope to god that she isn't bringing charges out of a belief that this will somehow satisfy the mob. That will backfire because despite the claims that they just want him arrested and a trial by jury, once he is arrested and charges filed, they'll demand a guilty verdict. And the anger and potential violence that would result if he's found not guilty down the line will be much worse than failing to file charges today.

You don't pacify a mob by giving them what they want. You embolden them and make them more sure of the rightness of their position. I really do hope she isn't just doing the legal equivalent of kicking the can down the road.
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#642 Apr 11 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:

I certainly can't see how we can possibly go forward with legal charges unless there's a whole **** of a lot of evidence we're missing that could change that assessment.


Hi, that's not how THAT works in Florida or anywhere else.


Hi. Yeah. It does.


So, by your own admission and ridiculous assumptions, then you must now agree that there is "a whole **** of a lot of evidence we're missing that could change that assessment", since he's now in custody and will be facing charges. How's that crow taste?
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#643 Apr 11 2012 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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What crow? You make the mistake of assuming I'm siding with Zimmerman. I know that most people pick a side and argue for it, but my position through the whole thing was that we should act on the evidence and not speculation. And from what I've seen that's available to us, the evidence points to self defense. I have always acknowledged that if the police have additional information which would allow them to proceed with an arrest and filing of charges, that they should.

My opposition was to people rushing to judgment based on the emotion of the case, and not the facts. That has not changed, so I'm not sure why you think I'd feel like I was wrong or anything.


That the prosecutor has charged him (and with 2nd degree murder to boot) suggests that there is some significant evidence to show that Zimmerman's action was not self defense as he claimed. It'll be interesting to see what that is.


I'll still point out that if she's acting on public pressure and doesn't have a strong case, this could still backfire for her. Going for 2nd degree murder if she *doesn't* have an iron clad case is risky as ****.
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#644 Apr 11 2012 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Somebody had to.
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#645 Apr 11 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, charged with 2nd degree murder. I was honestly expecting manslaughter at most.
#646 Apr 11 2012 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
I'll still point out that if she's acting on public pressure and doesn't have a strong case, this could still backfire for her. Going for 2nd degree murder if she *doesn't* have an iron clad case is risky as ****.



No such thing as an iron clad case (under the circumstances), but if she wasn't convinced she had enough evidence, she wouldn't be bringing charges. Doing so prematurely could preempt the inclusion of more concrete evidence later. Double jeopardy and all that.

Edited, Apr 11th 2012 6:18pm by BrownDuck
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#647 Apr 11 2012 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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What I suspect is that the Sanford police simply took him at his word of "self defense" without digging too thoroughly into it because, hey, he seemed like a nice guy who wouldn't shoot a kid unless he had probable cause to suspect him of being dangerous. (We call those "good ol' boys" around here. And ugh, they're everywhere.)

Unfortunately, Zimmerman's story was weak, down to the bad movie dialog to the description of the incident and the exaggeration of the degree of altercation (I do not doubt some sort of altercation occurred and Zimmerman probably did get punched in the nose during it, but if one's head was smashed repeatedly into the sidewalk, one should probably request a visit to the ER), plus there is the fact that he ignored recommendations to not follow the victim, meaning he was the aggressor no matter how self-defensy he thinks he was being.

In short, a review of the evidence by the prosecution showed that the SYG law was improperly invoked. SYG doesn't mean "run toward danger because you have a gun."
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#648 Apr 11 2012 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll still point out that if she's acting on public pressure and doesn't have a strong case, this could still backfire for her. Going for 2nd degree murder if she *doesn't* have an iron clad case is risky as ****.



No such thing as an iron clad case (under the circumstances), but if she wasn't convinced she had enough evidence, she wouldn't be bringing charges.


We should hope so. Hard to deny that there's a **** of a lot of pressure to file some sort of charges though. I just hope she did not bow to that pressure in this case.

Quote:
Doing so prematurely could preempt the inclusion of more concrete evidence later. Double jeopardy and all that.


Yup. I mentioned that about 4 or 5 pages ago as to why the Sanford Police department did not arrest him in the first place. Assuming this has all just been getting their ducks in order, then it's the legal system working as it's supposed to. I have a personal sneaking suspicion that there was more politics involved, but we'll just have to see how things shake out.
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#649 Apr 11 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
We should hope so. Hard to deny that there's a **** of a lot of pressure to file some sort of charges though. I just hope she did not bow to that pressure in this case.


That's cute. You were wrong about the chances of him getting charged, so of course it has to be because of public pressure.
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#650 Apr 11 2012 at 7:39 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
We should hope so. Hard to deny that there's a **** of a lot of pressure to file some sort of charges though. I just hope she did not bow to that pressure in this case.


That's cute. You were wrong about the chances of him getting charged, so of course it has to be because of public pressure.


I have always held open the possibility that there is either evidence we are not aware of which would make a valid case for charging him *or* that public pressure might cause charges to be filed anyway. Honestly, the vote is still out on which just happened. My position is going to be the same one it's been all along though: Let's wait until the facts come out and let the legal process work its way through. My issue has always been with what I saw as a rush to judgment based on public outcry and emotion. I was not wrong about that.
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#651 Apr 11 2012 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whatever the real events behind the scenes, special prosecutor Angela Corey was a great PR choice to put in front of the media. She said all the right things to diffuse the situation as much as possible, and to say that Zimmerman should get and will get a fair trial, and that Martin's death was always being looked after by the police, because they were making sure they had as much evidence detail as possible before they pressed charges.

Edited, Apr 11th 2012 10:21pm by Aripyanfar
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