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SCotUS to Look at Affirmative Action (Kind Of)Follow

#127 Mar 01 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Racism isn't as blatant as it used to be, it's hidden but has become ingrained within our society- you don't see too many klan rallies nowadays. Because of generational racism & white privilege, a white person is considered "safe" and a black person "dangerous". A white person who's in charge of things like loaning money for housing, is going to approve a white person more times than a black person who has the same credit due to things like this. The person approving or denying the loan may not even be aware of it. Same thing happens when a cop pulls over a black guy because he looks "suspicious".


gbaji wrote:
You're assuming rationale after the fact. When a white cop pulls over a black person for being "suspicious", you assume racism. You make note of it and look for the racism. But if the same cop pulls over a white person for also looking suspicious, you don't take note. Thus, your own assumptions taint your perceptions of things. Similarly, you assume the white banker refused the loan to the black person because of racism, but don't notice when he refuses loans to white people.


To throw this out there, after 12+ years in an inter-racial relationship I've seen plenty of both these things. There are a lot of people who are completely oblivious to how their behavior negatively impacts minorities, and could never be convinced otherwise. You'll never be rid of that kind of racial prejudice no matter how hard you try. It's excruciatingly difficult to put people into others shoes to the degree that would help them see the damage they do, just in my experience. How you compensate for that is isn't easy. The majority just won't admit to causing those kinds of problems, or trying to correct a problem they don't think exists.

On the other hand there's plenty of times I've seen minorities jump to the 'racism' explanation when there just isn't the justification. There's a fair amount of lingering suspicion and mistrust. Sometimes I suspect there are instances where it's nearly doing as much to hold people back as the racism itself is. No one wants to get bit a second time by the same dog, no matter if the dog has taken behavior training lessons, has become a guide dog for the blind, or whatever. So you see people not take opportunities because of the suspicion they will get rejected based on their race. Don't know how to make people see past that one either. Old habits don't die quickly.

*shrugs*

Edited, Mar 1st 2012 2:57pm by someproteinguy
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#128 Mar 01 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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No, of course not. But isn't that an unrealistic expectation?


Yes it is an unrealistic expectation. It would be nice if racism magically vanished into non-existence. But it won't happen, 2000+ years of Racism being present in human society is evidence enough that it won't just go away.


Ok. So why is that an argument against my idea, but not AA? If we both agree that neither of them will make racism magically end tomorrow, then shouldn't we go with the approach that isn't itself racially discriminatory?

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Stop being Naive. All the human rights movements over the past 300-400 years have happened for a reason, that being that in order to achieve progress one must voice for it, not lay in bed in dream land wishing that one day whitey will treat you like kin.


So you agree that human rights has advanced over the last 300-400 years. And for all but the last 40ish years, it happened without AA. So why do you assume that absent AA no social advance in the area of human rights, racism, etc can be obtained? Clearly, the evidence shows us that this isn't the case and that such advances can and have happened without the government creating preferential laws based on race, no matter how well intentioned.

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So lets take away a tool that directly assists in the equality of the races sexes and religions in Federally funded employment possibilities.


A tool that is not needed? A tool which many people believe isn't helping? A tool which uses the very racial discrimination that we're supposed to be fighting?


Yeah. You're **** right we should take that tool away. Why would anyone think otherwise?
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#129 Mar 01 2012 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Clearly, the evidence shows us that this isn't the case and that such advances can and have happened without the government creating preferential laws based on gender, no matter how well intentioned.


Exactly, DOMA needs to be repealed. Glad you came over to the winning side.
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#130 Mar 01 2012 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

Clearly, the evidence shows us that this isn't the case and that such advances can and have happened without the government creating preferential laws based on gender, no matter how well intentioned.


Exactly, DOMA needs to be repealed. Glad you came over to the winning side.


DOMA isn't a preferential law based on gender.
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#131 Mar 01 2012 at 9:58 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:

Clearly, the evidence shows us that this isn't the case and that such advances can and have happened without the government creating preferential laws based on gender, no matter how well intentioned.


Exactly, DOMA needs to be repealed. Glad you came over to the winning side.


DOMA isn't a preferential law based on gender.


Really...
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#132 Mar 01 2012 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:

Clearly, the evidence shows us that this isn't the case and that such advances can and have happened without the government creating preferential laws based on gender, no matter how well intentioned.


Exactly, DOMA needs to be repealed. Glad you came over to the winning side.


DOMA isn't a preferential law based on gender.


D'oh.
#133 Mar 02 2012 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
Gbaji wrote:
Of course it's racism. Or, if you're an advocate of the more recent redefinition of the word, it is at the very least "racial discrimination". And I think it's a mistake to conflate the concepts of racism and diversity. Those really are two different things. While we can certainly say that racism will tend to prevent diversity, we can't say that a lack of diversity is the result of racism, nor can we say that increasing diversity decreases racism. They really are two different concepts.


While the government can regulate blatant discrimination, no employer/university is allowed to legally discriminate due to race, gender, sexual orientation, or age, it cannot regulate thought. The only way the government can attempt to reduce institutionalized racism is by encouraging diversity. And in cases where employers/universities do not diversify willingly, they must enforce diversity in order to reduce racism.

Any company or university that doesn't willingly diversify is being racist, regardless of whether it's blatant or hidden. A lack of diversity increases racism (An all white office is going to have a hard time getting away with "black" jokes when there's a black guy there). Diversifying makes white people get to know people of color, causing them to hopefully breakdown their racial stereotypes, & reduces racism. It exposes white folks to different cultures, which leads to tolerance, & eventually acceptance. This is partly why things like "forced" integration in the Boston area school systems happened - to reduce racism (And because of the huge disparity between white & black school systems).

Gbaji wrote:

Diversity, when it occurs naturally is positive. When it's forced in order to make the stats look better, is isn't.


Diversity is always a positive in the melting pot that is America. It's only ever "forced" due to racism, which is always a negative.

Gbaji wrote:
Imagine you run a diner and have 10 different menu items. Now, you could certainly say that if your customers order each of those 10 items in roughly equal amounts, that this means that all your dishes are equally "good" (or bad, I suppose). Thus, you might desire to obtain that balance. If you had a certain dish that was not ordered often, you might want to look into why this is happening and correct it, right? But can we agree that the absolute wrong thing to do would be to force customers to order the dishes you wanted them to order in order to ensure that a diverse set of dishes were eaten?


People choose where they eat, they don't get to choose their co-workers. Sure, HR & management do, but since all HR managers & management staff in this country are encouraged to diversify, your "point" is moot.

Gbaji wrote:
You want everything to be equally desired and equally chosen. But if you take out the choice element, then you haven't actually accomplished anything at all. Diversity is a good goal, but it has to happen as a result of people's natural and unmanipulated choices. Otherwise, it's meaningless.


Yet if given a choice, many white people will choose NOT to diversify, which only increases racism. We keep going round & round and you keep speculating that somehow without AA, people would diversify willingly. That is NOT reality, Gbaji. I hope given the opportunity people would willingly choose to do so & AA wouldn't be required, but history shows otherwise. Again, I am FOR any policy that increases diversity without using race as a requirement & would choose said policies over AA every time (See the OP). However, I'm not for rolling back AA without another program in place that accomplishes the goals of AA (diversity). If you've got an idea on how to do this, go for it.
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#134Almalieque, Posted: Mar 02 2012 at 3:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Gbaji,
#135Almalieque, Posted: Mar 02 2012 at 3:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You would have had to call me a douchebag in order for your claim to be accurate.
#136 Mar 02 2012 at 5:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: facepalm
#137 Mar 02 2012 at 5:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I'm sorry, but who are you again?
Someone quoted in your sig.
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#138 Mar 02 2012 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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I like the random at signs in his sig. Like he was going to forget the a's so he circled them.
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#139 Mar 02 2012 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'm sorry, but who are you again?
Someone quoted in your sig.
It kind of requires a memory span.
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#140 Mar 02 2012 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
I like the random at signs in his sig. Like he was going to forget the a's so he circled them.


I'm pretty sure people ******* about control + Fing their names and getting stuck in his f@il sig. Being the good little puppet he is, he appeased the masses.

Really, though, who creates a shrine of insults made against them? I want a spot. I wonder how many different ways I can call him a virgin before it is permanently etched after every post for all the see.
#141Almalieque, Posted: Mar 02 2012 at 2:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Insert smart come back*!!!!
#142Almalieque, Posted: Mar 02 2012 at 2:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I like how you consider non-douchebaggery as puppetry. That says volumes about your character.
#143 Mar 02 2012 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Oh? Do tell.
#144 Mar 02 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Speaks. It speaks volumes about her character. For fuck sake.
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#145 Mar 02 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I think 6 letters is part of next months flash cards.
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#146 Mar 02 2012 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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Poverty doesn't discriminate. Poor is poor and in America poor means fuq'd. It's no better to be white and poor than black and poor. Actually, thanks to AA, if you simply must be poor, at least be smart enough to be a minority.


It's easily proven that there are far more economically disadvantaged blacks (as a percentage)than whites. The relevant questions are why? and what can be done about it?


Obviously there isn't one simple reason ( and blaming "racism" is about as overly simplistic, one reason catch all scapegoat as you can get). I personally think one of the main reasons is simply the much grater number of blacks raised in single parent households.

Here's a link:

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.aspx?ind=107


I could go on and on, but meh, many will already call me "racist" and go on and on about how much they oppose discrimination in any form, unless it's AA, then it's all good and necessary.
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#147 Mar 02 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
The only way the government can attempt to reduce institutionalized racism is by encouraging diversity.


I disagree. Doubly so when racial discrimination is used to create a mathematical diversity. Unless your definition of "institutionalized racism" is radically different than mine. To me, that means racism promoted or enacted by an institution. So when an individual does it (intentionally or not), it's not "institutionalized". When the government does it. It is. AA creates institutionalized racism.


Quote:
And in cases where employers/universities do not diversify willingly, they must enforce diversity in order to reduce racism.


Must they? I disagree.

Quote:
Any company or university that doesn't willingly diversify is being racist, regardless of whether it's blatant or hidden.


But who gets to decide what is a sufficient amount of "diversity"? Isn't that the problem here? If the lack of diversity is because of racism, you're correct. But if the lack of diversity is not, then you are incorrect.


The problem with AA is that it can only increase diversity in the latter case (where its lack is *not* caused by racism). University racial admissions bonuses for minorities work by giving certain racial groups a bonus to their admissions score. They only have an effect in the cases where the actual score (based on grades, extra curriculars, etc) is not sufficient to allow them to be admitted, but where the adjusted score (adjusted solely by race) does.

But those admission scores are based on actual student ability and history. They are, to the best we can obtain, an objective, non racist measurement of the qualifications of a potential student. So if the resulting student body isn't diverse (enough), then it's not because of racism, but because that's the correct ratio of races in the student body based on the actual objective, non-racial, qualifications.

When we apply AA bonuses in that case, we are not fighting racism at all. We're creating racism.


Quote:
Gbaji wrote:

Diversity, when it occurs naturally is positive. When it's forced in order to make the stats look better, is isn't.


Diversity is always a positive in the melting pot that is America. It's only ever "forced" due to racism, which is always a negative.


False. Absolutely demonstrably false. AA is precisely about "forcing" diversity in cases which have nothing to do with racial discrimination at all (until the AA program comes along and makes it about race, of course). You make these broad assumptive statements, but I don't see you providing any logical reason why you think they're true.

Think about what AA does. Think about the cases in which it has an effect. It is not countering racism. It's countering a lack of diversity, overwhelmingly in cases where racism is not involved at all. Now, if you want to make the argument that diversity by itself is so important that it's worth using racist policies to create it, then that's a valid direction to go. But it's completely wrong to insist that AA is about fighting racism itself. It's not. It's about perpetuating racism.

Quote:
People choose where they eat, they don't get to choose their co-workers. Sure, HR & management do, but since all HR managers & management staff in this country are encouraged to diversify, your "point" is moot.


No, it's not. If HR and management is hiring based on the best qualified applicants, but you decide that the resulting mix of employees isn't diverse enough, then you are forcing them to hire less qualified applicants purely because of that diversity goal. Unless you have evidence other than the insufficiently diverse outcome to claim that there's racial discrimination in the hiring process, then it's you who are instituting racism into the hiring process, not the other way around.


I happen to agree with you about the benefits of diversity in a society. I just don't believe that enforcing unequal hiring and admissions and contract granting processes via AA is the right way to do it. I happen to think it'll happen naturally on its own if you give it time. And the result by following that path will be much better than if you attempt to force it using AA.


Quote:
Yet if given a choice, many white people will choose NOT to diversify, which only increases racism.


Why single out white people? Many people of all colors might choose not to diversify. But that's their choice. And that doesn't increase racism. If their choice is based on racism, then all that's happening is a result of racism that already exists. The amount that's there, is the amount that's there. IMO, your mistake is somehow assuming that any time there isn't some ideal mix of races somewhere, that this must be occurring because of racism. But that's not the case.

People often make the mistake of assuming that "random" is the same as "even". A common game statistics teachers will use to illustrate this is to have everyone in the class but one write down a list of random "heads/tails" sequences on a piece of paper (say 50 flips). They're instructed to attempt to duplicate what they think a random distribution of flips would result in. One person in the class is given a coin and told to actually flip it 50 times and write the results in order down on a piece of paper.

At the end of the game, the teacher will take all the papers and can easily find the one generated by the guy who flipped the coin because it'll be the only one with sets of 6-8 heads or tails in a row on it.

Random effects produce uneven outcomes. All the time. Similarly, the outcomes of millions of people taking different courses in their lives, choosing which schools to attend, which classes to take, which fields to enter into, and thousands of other choices (or random effects) will *not* be homogeneous. Ever.


What we're doing with AA is seeing a streak of heads, deciding that this must mean that the coin is biased towards heads, and then deciding to make the outcome what we think it should be and not what it really is. It's wrong when a group of students think that's the right answer, and it's wrong when we do it in the real world. Even with no bias at all, the odds of every racial group having even close to statistically similar outcomes is astonishingly low. But you assume the opposite.

You're wrong. Just like the students who assume that the resulting coin flips should be evenly spread, with only minor deviations are wrong.

Quote:
We keep going round & round and you keep speculating that somehow without AA, people would diversify willingly.



You're focusing on the wrong half of my argument. Before we can even talk about whether people diversify willingly or not, we need to determine how me should be measuring diversity. You seem to think that anything other than an even spread of racial groups in every business and school is an indication of something wrong. I don't believe that this is the case. So IMO, you're trying to fix the wrong problem, and frankly using the wrong tool to do it too boot.


Quote:
Again, I am FOR any policy that increases diversity without using race as a requirement & would choose said policies over AA every time (See the OP). However, I'm not for rolling back AA without another program in place that accomplishes the goals of AA (diversity). If you've got an idea on how to do this, go for it.


Again, this is meaningless if we can't decide what our diversity goals are, and determine if those goals are really indicative of a society free(er) of racial discrimination.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2012 4:49pm by gbaji
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#148 Mar 02 2012 at 8:12 PM Rating: Default
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No, it's not. If HR and management is hiring based on the best qualified applicants, but you decide that the resulting mix of employees isn't diverse enough, then you are forcing them to hire less qualified applicants purely because of that diversity goal.


Nothing stopping them from saying that Whitey is more qualified then Darky publicly and behind closed doors say they would rather a white person represent organization.

Oh wait there is.

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#149 Mar 02 2012 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Guenny wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
I like the random at signs in his sig. Like he was going to forget the a's so he circled them.


I'm pretty sure people ******* about control + Fing their names and getting stuck in his f@il sig. Being the good little puppet he is, he appeased the masses.

Really, though, who creates a shrine of insults made against them? I want a spot. I wonder how many different ways I can call him a virgin before it is permanently etched after every post for all the see.

Alma doesn't realize that they're all insults. He truly believes those sarcastic remarks were people agreeing with him.
#150 Mar 02 2012 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of good stuff about embracing diversity and eradicating racism. Followed by white bashing. There's a word on the tip of my tongue. almost have it. What is it? Hmm, Hypodermic? No, Uh, Hypersonic? no. Maybe Hippocrates? ****! What is it???
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#151 Mar 02 2012 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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CoalHeart wrote:
Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of good stuff about embracing diversity and eradicating racism. Followed by white bashing. There's a word on the tip of my tongue. almost have it. What is it? Hmm, Hypodermic? No, Uh, Hypersonic? no. Maybe Hippocrates? ****! What is it???


Stop humiliating yourself.
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