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SCotUS to Look at Affirmative Action (Kind Of)Follow

#202 Mar 08 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, ok. I use Chrome, so all is well. You people should really use a better browser.
#203 Mar 08 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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I prefer Firefox over Chrome, Noscript is too good to miss <3
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#204 Mar 08 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I prefer Firefox over Chrome, Noscript is too good to miss <3

Luckily you don't have to since the exact same extension exists for Chrome.
#205 Mar 08 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty sure Chrome has an equivalent.
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#206 Mar 08 2012 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
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Oh, so the reply feature only changed on the other skins? EQ1 skin wins again, yay!
I'm on the EQ skin.Smiley: mad

It's the text window for respond/quote with the larger and changed font. I'm on FF, though...Chrome users are apparently not affected.

I noticed this, too. Wasn't sure what had happened.
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#207 Mar 08 2012 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I use no script and ad block on Chrome. So there. Bite me.
#208 Mar 08 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Ah, last time I tried Chrome I couldn't find it. That said, unless I see a good reason to switch to Chrome I'm fine with firefox.
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#209 Mar 08 2012 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Ah, last time I tried Chrome I couldn't find it. That said, unless I see a good reason to switch to Chrome I'm fine with firefox.

Memory leaks? I still on occasion reach 1GB and get script errors when I've got three windows and 10 tabs open...
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#210 Mar 08 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think I've ever gotten beyond 600mb even with 30+ tabs and multiple windows open.
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#211 Mar 08 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Active pages'll do that real quick. I usually have two or three games plus Live Forum View going and that really bleeds it for all it's worth.
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#212 Mar 08 2012 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
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The question is about what we do about it. And I don't think that AA helps at all. I think it treats the wrong problem, in the wrong way, and allows the real problem to go by unaddressed. So each generation that gap in "real" outcome grows, but instead of doing anything about it, we comfort ourselves that we're offsetting that with some bonuses on the back end. And while I'm sure AA helps out the middle class black folks just fine, I don't think it's doing a whole **** of a lot at all for those who are really suffering.


And your solution is?


I don't know about Gbaji, but I think what Texas is doing is a good start to a proper AA solution. Texas's 10% rule helps minorities (who are statistically in poorer performing areas) without directly doing so because they are a minority. So by helping all students in a poor performing area, you help the non-minority students who may be stuck in the same situation equally.

Texas's solution isn't perfect, and it seems to be that the State universities and colleges don't have enough space to hold the top 10% plus anyone else (they said 81% of UT-Austin's enrollment in 08 were top 10% students).

The problem with the 10% rule seems to be more capacity than true discrimination. Just not enough room to let everyone in. Maybe it's also creating a mentality where people are settling for a State university rather than shooting higher, and taking a spot that may have otherwise been open for someone lower than the 10% cutoff?
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#213 Mar 08 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
The question is about what we do about it. And I don't think that AA helps at all. I think it treats the wrong problem, in the wrong way, and allows the real problem to go by unaddressed. So each generation that gap in "real" outcome grows, but instead of doing anything about it, we comfort ourselves that we're offsetting that with some bonuses on the back end. And while I'm sure AA helps out the middle class black folks just fine, I don't think it's doing a whole **** of a lot at all for those who are really suffering.


And your solution is?


The same one it was back on page one of this thread, when you asked the exact same question:

gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
What's your solution?



Stop treating people differently based on the color of their skin. I know, it's not fancy, and it doesn't involve big government programs, and watchdog groups, and bureaucrats sitting around determining how much of their racism is needed to offset someone else's racism, but it's the only solution that will ever actually solve the problem. Stop creating racist government policies and let society adjust to a world in which people are actually treated equally under the law. Over time, you'll see the outcomes become more equal as well.



Perhaps if you actually consider my answer instead of dismissing it outright, we might just get somewhere?
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#214 Mar 08 2012 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps if you actually consider my answer instead of dismissing it outright, we might just get somewhere?


Ignoring the problems pointed out in the cartoon on page 1 doesn't make them go away, either. I dismissed it because I believe it wouldn't solve the problems, but would instead perpetuate racism against people of color while "eliminating" "racism" against whites.

American society, economic policies, & politics were all created by white people for the enrichment of white people & that is still perpetuated today despite AA. ONCE AGAIN: I will always take policies like the one mentioned in the OP, that does not use race as a factor in admissions yet still increases diversity, over policies that do use race as a factor PROVIDED THEY INCREASE DIVERSITY.

Stopping AA will not increase diversity. It'd need to be replaced with something else.

Edited, Mar 9th 2012 1:57am by Omegavegeta
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#215 Mar 09 2012 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
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Perhaps if you actually consider my answer instead of dismissing it outright, we might just get somewhere?


Ignoring the problems pointed out in the cartoon on page 1 doesn't make them go away, either. I dismissed it because I believe it wouldn't solve the problems, but would instead perpetuate racism against people of color while "eliminating" "racism" against whites.


What the @#%^ are you smoking?

How does treating people the same regardless of their skin color equate to not solving the problem of racism? Isn't the problem exactly that? Treating people differently because of the color of their skin?

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, this is not a difficult concept. When skin color is no longer a deciding factor in anything, I'd say you've done a pretty good job of defeating racism. Or is it that you really just want to always feel special because of the color of your skin?

Edited, Mar 9th 2012 9:52am by cidbahamut
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#216 Mar 09 2012 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
When skin color is no longer a deciding factor in anything, I'd say you've done a pretty good job of defeating racism.
I'm sure that'll happen just after we've won the War on Drugs, and just shortly before the glorious victory in the War on Terror.
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#217 Mar 09 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:


How does treating people the same regardless of their skin color equate to not solving the problem of racism? Isn't the problem exactly that? Treating people differently because of the color of their skin?


No.

People are not the same. Why would we treat them like they are?

Equality is not treating everyone the same. It's insuring that all are provided for equally.

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#218 Mar 09 2012 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Well it's an ideal to work toward and likely won't ever be achieved. That's true of most ideals, but it sounds like if Omega has his way he'll always get to play the victim and that ensures that the ideal can never be reached. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I just don't see how making skin color an issue helps make skin color not be an issue. But then, my skin is a different color than his so I guess my opinion doesn't count.
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#219 Mar 09 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
I will always take policies like the one mentioned in the OP, that does not use race as a factor in admissions yet still increases diversity, over policies that do use race as a factor PROVIDED THEY INCREASE DIVERSITY.


If race is such a non-factor in a person's make-up why is diversity important?
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#220 Mar 09 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's "ensure", Elinda. Ensure. Smiley: tongue
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#221 Mar 09 2012 at 10:55 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:


How does treating people the same regardless of their skin color equate to not solving the problem of racism? Isn't the problem exactly that? Treating people differently because of the color of their skin?


No.

People are not the same. Why would we treat them like they are?

Equality is not treating everyone the same. It's insuring that all are provided for equally.



Equality vs fairness... I've said it before.
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#222 Mar 09 2012 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
Elinda wrote:
If race is such a non-factor in a person's make-up why is diversity important?


Because diversity is beneficial to society. A diverse workplace or school has better decision making, improved problem solving, greater creativity, more innovation, is more marketable to a wider range of people, & more successful especially in a global economy. Not to mention the fact that exposing "close minded" folks to other people of different backgrounds & cultures reduces racism & helps reach the goals of equality.

I want to live in a country where all men are created equal & aren't judged by their skin color, sexual orientation, age, gender, or socio-economic status. That's the goal of AA- not to disenfranchise white folks but to enforce diversity in areas where inequities exist.


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#223 Mar 10 2012 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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American society, economic policies, & politics were all created by white people for the enrichment of white people & that is still perpetuated today despite AA.


I would love to see a source that limits economic policy to whites only. Call me skeptic but I highly doubt that policy itself was created only for whites to benefit from. While I agree whites did have the means to benefit from said policy more readily then minorities, this was caused by other means than the policies themselves. A black man can use the same government services, and incentives as a white person, unless I am mistaken.

Also I was of the understanding AA applied only to Government and Public (schools public works and such) employment, this is how our version (Employment Equity) functions, and it was pretty much based entirely on your AA. It doesn't apply to private organizations, such as factory work, office work, etc. (at least in Canada).





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#224 Mar 10 2012 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Equality is not treating everyone the same. It's insuring that all are provided for equally.

While I think you're getting at the idea, I really hate how you phrased it. Equality is about treating all that is equal as equal and all that is different as different directly to the vector of that difference.
#225 Mar 10 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Equality is not treating everyone the same. It's insuring that all are provided for equally.

While I think you're getting at the idea, I really hate how you phrased it. Equality is about treating all that is equal as equal and all that is different as different directly to the vector of that difference.


There is no relativity in equality, at least in a computational point of view. Treating everyone the same when everyone isn't the same, is equal but not necessarily fair.
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#226 Mar 10 2012 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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American society, economic policies, & politics were all created by white people for the enrichment of white people & that is still perpetuated today despite AA.


I would love to see a source that limits economic policy to whites only. Call me skeptic but I highly doubt that policy itself was created only for whites to benefit from. While I agree whites did have the means to benefit from said policy more readily then minorities, this was caused by other means than the policies themselves. A black man can use the same government services, and incentives as a white person, unless I am mistaken.

Also I was of the understanding AA applied only to Government and Public (schools public works and such) employment, this is how our version (Employment Equity) functions, and it was pretty much based entirely on your AA. It doesn't apply to private organizations, such as factory work, office work, etc. (at least in Canada)

Until after the civil rights movement in the 1960s the vast majority of African Americans could not get a bank mortgage for a house in most of the US. They were automatically ruled out. I don't know whether this was a specific law, or simply bank policy. But the economic consequences of this was severe. No bank loan usually meant no house ownership, and cut off the most normal, easy way for a poor or middle class individual or family to eventually acquire a large, significant asset. In hard times, whites could second-mortgage their homes, or sell them and downgrade, in the event of job loss, major illness, old age or any catastrophe. Many, if not most small businesses are started with a loan against the family home. This route was denied blacks. In fact, business loans and business finance third parties such as accountants, to blacks probably went the same way as mortgages.

I think most cash strapped people can tell you how hard it is to save money in the absence of forced savings like mortgage payments. And what was the point of blacks saving anyway? No Investment trust, financial advisor or investment banker was going to handle their money to invest it in anything that would accrue growth or significant interest, either, until after the 60s. The best a black person could do was squirrel cash away for a rainy day and pray that the starting capital of that cash would cover something.

To AA or not AA? Whatever the answer, some minorities are starting from so far behind it's not funny. Where would you be today, if your grandparents or parents were not allowed to accrue assets and savings, or start a small business, even if they tried?
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#227 Mar 11 2012 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
There is no relativity in equality, at least in a computational point of view. Treating everyone the same when everyone isn't the same, is equal but not necessarily fair.

What, no it isn't. You've created your own definitions for words again haven't you.

If and only if something is "the same" in a specific context is it equal in that context. If people aren't the same in a regard, and you treat them as if they are, then you're not being equal. Though humorously enough you could be being fair.
#228Almalieque, Posted: Mar 11 2012 at 6:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've specifically said in a computational point of view. In computations, 4 != 3.9999999999. Saying otherwise states that irrational numbers are also rational numbers.
#229 Mar 11 2012 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
There is no relativity in equality, at least in a computational point of view. Treating everyone the same when everyone isn't the same, is equal but not necessarily fair.

What, no it isn't. You've created your own definitions for words again haven't you.

If and only if something is "the same" in a specific context is it equal in that context. If people aren't the same in a regard, and you treat them as if they are, then you're not being equal. Though humorously enough you could be being fair.


I've specifically said in a computational point of view. In computations, 4 != 3.9999999999. Saying otherwise states that irrational numbers are also rational numbers.

Actually you can prove algebraically that 3.99999999 = 4...

Edited, Mar 11th 2012 9:02am by Nilatai
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#230 Mar 11 2012 at 7:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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#231 Mar 11 2012 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Whaaaat? Smiley: facepalm

Sorry!
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#232 Mar 11 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
In computations, 4 != 3.9999999999.

Which is my point, and the opposite of what you said.
Quote:
Treating everyone the same when everyone isn't the same, is equal

When two numbers aren't the same and you treat them as if they are, you're saying they're equal. They're not. People have to be the same in a regard for them to be equal in that regard. IF they're not, and you act as if they are, then you're bad.
#233 Mar 11 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Actually you can prove algebraically that 3.99999999 = 4...

No you can't. Don't do this.
#234 Mar 11 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Actually you can prove algebraically that 3.99999999 = 4...

No you can't. Don't do this.

Smiley: tongue Fine.
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#235 Mar 11 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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People are not numbers. This an irrelevant distraction.
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#236 Mar 11 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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The finer points of mathematics are much more interesting than the current discussion, though.
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#237 Mar 11 2012 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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#238 Mar 11 2012 at 11:35 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
In computations, 4 != 3.9999999999.

Which is my point, and the opposite of what you said.
Quote:
Treating everyone the same when everyone isn't the same, is equal

When two numbers aren't the same and you treat them as if they are, you're saying they're equal. They're not. People have to be the same in a regard for them to be equal in that regard. IF they're not, and you act as if they are, then you're bad.


I see how you were confused. My example was too abstract.

Let me try again. If you have one set standard, that is equality. If you adjust the rules to fit certain people, it is no longer equal. There is no relativity in equality. If it isn't across the board, then it isn't equal, period.

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#239 Mar 11 2012 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
The finer points of mathematics are much more interesting than the current discussion, though.
Watching paint dry is more interesting than any discussion with Alma. Less predictable too.
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#240 Mar 11 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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People are not numbers. This an irrelevant distraction.
Yeah.
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#241 Mar 11 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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#243 Mar 11 2012 at 6:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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#244 Mar 12 2012 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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#245 Mar 12 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Resistance is futile.


Correction, resistance is voltage over current.
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#246 Mar 12 2012 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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#247 Mar 12 2012 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Resistance is futile.


Correction, resistance is voltage over current.

Only when you're talking about electricity.
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#248 Mar 12 2012 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Every time I think I've heard it all, Alma manages to shock me yet again.
Like it surprises anyone that he can't keep up with the current conversation.
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#249 Mar 12 2012 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Every time I think I've heard it all, Alma manages to shock me yet again.
Like it surprises anyone that he can't keep up with the current conversation.


In his defense though, it's a little outside of his field.
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#250 Mar 12 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Every time I think I've heard it all, Alma manages to shock me yet again.
Like it surprises anyone that he can't keep up with the current conversation.


In his defense though, it's a little outside of his field.


But don't be surprised when he asserts a position that's the polar opposite of the rest of the forum.
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#251 Mar 12 2012 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Every time I think I've heard it all, Alma manages to shock me yet again.
Like it surprises anyone that he can't keep up with the current conversation.


In his defense though, it's a little outside of his field.


But don't be surprised when he asserts a position that's the polar opposite of the rest of the forum.


He's always been a bit of a breaker on those things.
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