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#52 Feb 22 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sir Spoonless wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
I can follow gbaji's complaint about as well as Jaffe's, which is to say, not very well.
He doesn't like Choose Your Own Adventure® books.


You're confusing plot with character. He's not saying that games can't or shouldn't have plots, but that by adding defined character personalities that you play and interweaving them into the plot, possibly (especially) with rewards for playing "in character" and penalties for not, you run the risk of actually limiting play options instead of expanding them. And he's not even talking about player defined characters. A game where you pick the name, stats, weapons, etc of your character and then go off and play through the game is very different than one where you pick from a set of pre-defined characters and are confined in some way based on which character you pick.
That's a mighty bit of presumption you just made regarding a throwaway one-liner.

Edit: Though I guess you could be addressing Eske's statement here. I wouldn't know; I didn't read the article in question.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 4:00pm by Spoonless
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#53 Feb 22 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
by adding defined character personalities that you play and interweaving them into the plot, possibly (especially) with rewards for playing "in character" and penalties for not, you run the risk of actually limiting play options instead of expanding them. And he's not even talking about player defined characters. A game where you pick the name, stats, weapons, etc of your character and then go off and play through the game is very different than one where you pick from a set of pre-defined characters and are confined in some way based on which character you pick.

What games do you think you're talking about?
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#54 Feb 22 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Spoonless wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are some really good Asian restaurants (of all varieties) in the area. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone goes to this particular one. Power of advertising I guess.
Same reason people in RI go to Olive Garden when there are a hundred good Italian restaurants around here, I guess. At least there isn't a Red Lobster around here anymore. Smiley: lol


Olive Garden is awesome. Smiley: bah

I don't get the hate on it. I'm Italian, have had every manner of Italian food, and I still enjoy Olive Garden quite a bit. The food tastes good. That's the long and short of it.

I'm cool with someone saying "I don't personally enjoy Olive Garden." But when they make into some holier-than-thou, snobby bit about how it's not REAL ITALIAN FOOD, I want to punch a breadstick through their eye.

Maybe both eyes, since they're unlimited breadsticks.
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#55 Feb 22 2012 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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In the same sense, I want to puncture every organ in alphabetical order of anyone that does insist that Olive Garden is real Italian food. The food is decent to good, let's leave it at that.
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#56 Feb 22 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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My primary gripe with OG is that they'd make a big deal of "unlimited XYZ" but actually getting someone to bring you more XYZ required an act of Congress. The wait staff was very adept at avoiding my empty salad bowl.

That and the "two olives per salad" policy they seem to have. Which, now that I type it out, is sort of ironic.
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#57 Feb 22 2012 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Sir Spoonless wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are some really good Asian restaurants (of all varieties) in the area. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone goes to this particular one. Power of advertising I guess.
Same reason people in RI go to Olive Garden when there are a hundred good Italian restaurants around here, I guess. At least there isn't a Red Lobster around here anymore. Smiley: lol


Olive Garden is awesome. Smiley: bah

I don't get the hate on it. I'm Italian, have had every manner of Italian food, and I still enjoy Olive Garden quite a bit. The food tastes good. That's the long and short of it.

I'm cool with someone saying "I don't personally enjoy Olive Garden." But when they make into some holier-than-thou, snobby bit about how it's not REAL ITALIAN FOOD, I want to punch a breadstick through their eye.

Maybe both eyes, since they're unlimited breadsticks.
I just don't understand why anybody would choose to drive by thirty better, cheaper Italian restaurants to get to one. For anything they serve at Olive Garden, there are plenty of restaurants around here that do it better for less money. I'm not saying Olive Garden is bad, I just don't see any reason to go there considering the how many better places there are in close proximity.
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#58 Feb 22 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Maybe both eyes, since they're unlimited breadsticks.
Smiley: lol

Sounds like my aunt and uncle from Chicago. According to them, no good food is produced outside of Chicago. Even food that originated in other places, Chicago does it better.
#59 Feb 22 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Spoonless wrote:
That's a mighty bit of presumption you just made regarding a throwaway one-liner.

Edit: Though I guess you could be addressing Eske's statement here. I wouldn't know; I didn't read the article in question.


No. I was responding to you. Throwaway one-liner or not (and even absent reading the article on your part), your comment was indicative of what I view as an incorrect interpretation of what was said in the article. It's not about games with a set of choices and results, but about defining the character you play, complete with personality quirks and written into the game interaction options with other characters. He's saying that this limits rather than expands the game media.

I'm not saying "OMG! ban that sort of game!!!", but I do see what he's saying and kind of agree with him. I've avoided games like that for 10 years or so (since they started making them really). He just verbalized something that I've always acted on myself, and have posted about in the video game discussion forum a few times in the past. I recall a thread a few months ago where I was arguing that most RPGs today don't really involve role playing at all. It's kind of the same thing.
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#60 Feb 22 2012 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Spoonless wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Sir Spoonless wrote:
gbaji wrote:
There are some really good Asian restaurants (of all varieties) in the area. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone goes to this particular one. Power of advertising I guess.
Same reason people in RI go to Olive Garden when there are a hundred good Italian restaurants around here, I guess. At least there isn't a Red Lobster around here anymore. Smiley: lol


Olive Garden is awesome. Smiley: bah

I don't get the hate on it. I'm Italian, have had every manner of Italian food, and I still enjoy Olive Garden quite a bit. The food tastes good. That's the long and short of it.

I'm cool with someone saying "I don't personally enjoy Olive Garden." But when they make into some holier-than-thou, snobby bit about how it's not REAL ITALIAN FOOD, I want to punch a breadstick through their eye.

Maybe both eyes, since they're unlimited breadsticks.
I just don't understand why anybody would choose to drive by thirty better, cheaper Italian restaurants to get to one. For anything they serve at Olive Garden, there are plenty of restaurants around here that do it better for less money. I'm not saying Olive Garden is bad, I just don't see any reason to go there considering the how many better places there are in close proximity.


That's it, you're getting breadsticked.

EDIT: I wrote "breadstuck", stared at it for a little while, then deleted it. Smiley: lol

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 4:21pm by Eske
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#61 Feb 22 2012 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grousing about the term "RPG" might make you feel better but it's pointless. It's the term the industry has used for at least the last 27 years.

I'm still curious to hear specific games from you that you think contain these elements. Not that I doubt any exist but your complaints are very vague and I assume you're just commenting based on what you assume games are like rather than based on any recent experience. Your "10 years" remark would back me up on that.
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#62 Feb 22 2012 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sir Spoonless wrote:
That's a mighty bit of presumption you just made regarding a throwaway one-liner.

Edit: Though I guess you could be addressing Eske's statement here. I wouldn't know; I didn't read the article in question.


No. I was responding to you. Throwaway one-liner or not (and even absent reading the article on your part), your comment was indicative of what I view as an incorrect interpretation of what was said in the article. It's not about games with a set of choices and results, but about defining the character you play, complete with personality quirks and written into the game interaction options with other characters. He's saying that this limits rather than expands the game media.

I'm not saying "OMG! ban that sort of game!!!", but I do see what he's saying and kind of agree with him. I've avoided games like that for 10 years or so (since they started making them really). He just verbalized something that I've always acted on myself, and have posted about in the video game discussion forum a few times in the past. I recall a thread a few months ago where I was arguing that most RPGs today don't really involve role playing at all. It's kind of the same thing.
So I managed to misinterpret something I wasn't even trying to interpret in the first place. Man, I'm awesome.
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#63 Feb 22 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
In the same sense, I want to puncture every organ in alphabetical order of anyone that does insist that Olive Garden is real Italian food. The food is decent to good, let's leave it at that.


Gotta agree with Eske here. For the most part the Italians I know like Olive Garden just fine. Now, whether the food is "real Italian food" is kinda irrelevant, because most Italians wont agree on what that is in the first place. Honestly, I think that places like Olive garden do well because they take a specific type of food and moderate it for a wider range of palettes. The Italians I know will argue about which "real Italian restaurant" to go to because half the family hates the sauce here, or the meatballs there, or insist the pasta is wrong at the other place, but they'll agree on Olive Garden because it's not "real Italian" just enough that they don't feel offended by it.


At least that's the sense that I get. But I actually like Olive Garden. PF Chang's? It's not even whether it's authentic Asian food or anything. I can deal with that. It's just crappy food and crappy service. They forgot to bring the damn rice. Every meal comes with a bowl of rice (at least judging from the bowls at every place setting at every table around us). Somehow we didn't get any until I asked "Doesn't this come with a bowl of rice?", to which the waiter said "It sure does!". No apology. Just treated it like there was no problem at all.

And the rice was the wrong consistency for rice in a bowl. And it tasted bland as hell (which is saying something for rice). The meal I ordered sounded like it had a mix of meat and veggies, but ended out just with chunks of overcooked meat and tiny bits of veggies. The sauce was pretty undefinable. I get not offending some people's taste buds, but going with no flavor at all seems like a poor solution.

It was just bad. And that's been typical of my experience with that restaurant.
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#64 Feb 22 2012 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Grousing about the term "RPG" might make you feel better but it's pointless. It's the term the industry has used for at least the last 27 years.


And they can get the hell off my lawn too! Smiley: mad

Quote:
I'm still curious to hear specific games from you that you think contain these elements. Not that I doubt any exist but your complaints are very vague and I assume you're just commenting based on what you assume games are like rather than based on any recent experience. Your "10 years" remark would back me up on that.


I'll see if I can dig up the thread in the games forum for you. There was a whole discussion about different types of RPG games. A lot of the discussion was dedicated to which characters to pick to get which interactions with other characters, and which possible endings you can get as a result, depending on which items/quests whatever you do with each of them.

I'm assuming that's the exact sort of game that Jaffe was talking about and it's exactly the sort of faux-RPG that I was grousing about as well.
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#65 Feb 22 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Spoonless wrote:
So I managed to misinterpret something I wasn't even trying to interpret in the first place. Man, I'm awesome.


Um... Sure! More like you read what other people were saying, and then wrote the same thing in your own words. Although I'll give you credit for the Choose Your Own Adventure reference. That was all you!
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#66 Feb 22 2012 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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It actually stemmed from
Quote:
Actually, not many. Want to know why? Because many of them have exactly that sort of pseudo-RPG aspect to them that I realized I didn't really like about 10 years ago. I'd much rather the devs spent time making the actual game elements more interesting and less a reaction fest instead of spending so much time giving me 8 characters to interact with, with each having a dozen or so interaction points, each of which can lead to a hundred or so variant cut-scenes and and a handful of different endings.
which to me sounded like a CYOA book on an obviously larger scale.
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#67 Feb 22 2012 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even there one doesn't preclude the other. Dragon Age has a bunch of NPCs with various dialogue options, etc. But I still enjoyed the game play (which was only as much of a reaction-fest as you wished since you could make it play-by-turn via the pause key). Wangin' stuff with my sword and fireballs was as much fun as it was in older, less plot oriented, games.
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#68 Feb 22 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Who doesn't enjoy a good Wangin' now and then?
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#69 Feb 22 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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For a good wangin', go to page 14.
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#70 Feb 22 2012 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's one of the threads where I discussed CRPGs and how they've changed over time. In this particular one, I'm mostly focused on what makes a game an RPG, but there's a few bits relevant to this conversation:

Quote:
Sorry. It's that depth that makes a game a RPG. It's the degree to which there are multiple choices, not all of which affect the path or outcome of the game, but which may have consequences to the character you're playing in the game that make it an RPG. Ultimately, and while very few computer games accomplish this, the goal of RPGs is to have the player writing as much of the story as possible, not just following a script someone else wrote. The more it's the former, the more it's an RPG. The more it's the latter, the more it's *not*.



That is precisely the point Jaffe was making with his "player authored" versus "developer authored" statement.
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#71 Feb 22 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Here's one of the threads where I discussed CRPGs and how they've changed over time. In this particular one, I'm mostly focused on what makes a game an RPG, but there's a few bits relevant to this conversation:

Quote:
Sorry. It's that depth that makes a game a RPG. It's the degree to which there are multiple choices, not all of which affect the path or outcome of the game, but which may have consequences to the character you're playing in the game that make it an RPG. Ultimately, and while very few computer games accomplish this, the goal of RPGs is to have the player writing as much of the story as possible, not just following a script someone else wrote. The more it's the former, the more it's an RPG. The more it's the latter, the more it's *not*.



That is precisely the point Jaffe was making with his "player authored" versus "developer authored" statement.


As I said back in that thread, the term "RPG" is a misnomer; its definition has shifted over the years, rendering your definition, and ensuing complaints, a bit moot.

Really, I don't see any room to complain, regardless. There isn't exactly a dearth of player authored narrative games right now, nor an inundation of the other kind.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 5:20pm by Eske
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#72 Feb 22 2012 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Who doesn't enjoy a good Wangin' now and then?


Rick Santorum.
#73 Feb 22 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread was better when it was about Olive Garden. Which is good, btw. Hater's be hatin'.
#74 Feb 22 2012 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Dozer wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Who doesn't enjoy a good Wangin' now and then?


Rick Santorum.


Nadenu wrote:
This thread was better when it was about Olive Garden. Which is good, btw. Hater's be hatin'.


Rick Santorum at Olive Garden?

Although he probably wouldn't eat there - he probably thinks there is something evil about unlimited breadsticks.
#75 Feb 22 2012 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Here's one of the threads where I discussed CRPGs and how they've changed over time. In this particular one, I'm mostly focused on what makes a game an RPG, but there's a few bits relevant to this conversation:

CRPGs today are a million times more RPG-like than the games which first received the label. If people playing Bard's Tale in 1985 could have played Skyrim (or Oblivion or DA:O or any of a bunch of modern "RPGs"), they'd have drowned in the ocean of their own ejaculate.
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#76 Feb 22 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
As I said back in that thread, the term "RPG" is a misnomer; its definition has shifted over the years, rendering your definition, and ensuing complaints, a bit moot.

Really, I don't see any room to complain, regardless. There isn't exactly a dearth of player authored narrative games right now, nor an inundation of the other kind.


I'm just saying that this is what Jaffe was talking about, and that I understand where he is coming from. Clearly he feels that there has been an increase in the sort of "dev driven character development" in the gaming industry. There's also a lot of more open ended RPG games as well. I don't think it's wrong for someone to state an opinion on the issue. Some people seemed to be confused about what he was saying, so I injected my interpretation. Hell. For all I know, I could be totally off as well. But that's the view I have of some of the RPGs that have come out over the last decade, and it seems to me to match what he was saying, so I commented.


Again, it's not like I'm proposing some course of action here. Just saying "this is what I think he meant".
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#77 Feb 22 2012 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Really, I don't see any room to complain, regardless. There isn't exactly a dearth of player authored narrative games right now, nor an inundation of the other kind.

There's that as well. For all the games out there and the massive bloom of indie titles, complaining about RPGs seems a bit shallow. They certainly aren't killing the gaming scene.

For that matter, avoiding modern gaming because of CRPGs and thus ignoring every other facet of the gaming industry seems silly but I guess it doesn't hurt me any.
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#78 Feb 22 2012 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Spoonless wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I do agree with his point about lengthy intros that allow limited interaction. Even as "basic training" they're not really successful. I'd love to be able to skip the whole wagon ride and associated content next time I start a character in Skyrim -- I don't even know if the sequence is actually long from a minutes standpoint; it's just dull. At least you'll probably never play the intro to Arkham City twice.
That's one thing I liked about Fallout 3. They give you a save file right before finalizing your character's stats and exiting the vault, so on subsequent playthroughs, you can just create your character and go.

If you play Skyrim on PC, you can just console command a race change, I guess.

You don't want to know how many times I followed Septim and his band of merry morons through the passages under the Imperial City at the beginning of Oblivion, when I was trying to get some mods to work. Smiley: disappointed After awhile I remembered that you can change all your attributes (race, class, sign, etc) before leaving the prison sewer but at that point I only restarted once...
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#79 Feb 22 2012 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
This thread was better when it was about Olive Garden. Which is good, btw. Hater's be hatin'.
This.
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#80 Feb 22 2012 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I just read a few posts with an Olive Garden commercial on in the background. Smiley: rolleyes

Dozer wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Maybe both eyes, since they're unlimited breadsticks.
Smiley: lol

Sounds like my aunt and uncle from Chicago. According to them, no good food is produced outside of Chicago. Even food that originated in other places, Chicago does it better.

I take it they don't eat pizza...

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oh no u dinnint!
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#82 Feb 22 2012 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent
If I'm going to do all you can eat pasta, I prefer to go to one of those places that let you combine veggies, meat, spices, and noodles and then they fry it all up for you. Mongolian stir fry or something.
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#84 Feb 22 2012 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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As an outsider, I would have assumed a place called "The Olive Garden" would actually be a Greek restaurant. Shocking.
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#85 Feb 22 2012 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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It was, but then the Roman Empire took it over.
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#86 Feb 22 2012 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Well they do share a spice pallet.
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#87 Feb 22 2012 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You don't want to know how many times I followed Septim and his band of merry morons through the passages under the Imperial City at the beginning of Oblivion, when I was trying to get some mods to work. Smiley: disappointed After awhile I remembered that you can change all your attributes (race, class, sign, etc) before leaving the prison sewer but at that point I only restarted once...


I saved my game before leaving the sewers and never did that run again.

Well, that's not strictly true. I did it a second time to make sure I hadn't missed anything, and sure enough I had. So I guess my second game was the generative save.

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#88 Feb 22 2012 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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More Jaffiness.

I'll save you the trouble, you don't need to read any of it, but the audio clip in the lower half is of some mild interest, in a reality TV kinda way.

It's Jaffe cursing out one of Kotaku's editors for an article of their's that called him mysoginistic. Spoiler alert: he comes off like an asshole.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 11:18pm by Eske
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#89 Feb 22 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Was Jaffe asking how cumzit that there Batman game can't be more like Duke Nukem?
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#90 Feb 22 2012 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Was Jaffe asking how cumzit that there Batman game can't be more like Duke Nukem?


That, and apparently Shadow of the Colossus needs more flaming chainsaws.
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#91 Feb 22 2012 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Well, that can be said about any game.

And it'd be right.
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#92 Feb 22 2012 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Article wrote:
We discussed our favorite online games, such as Battlefield 3, where the free-form combat leads to players telling each other their favorite stories about what happened on the battlefield.

Right. The difference being that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people paid money to play the story of Batman. Conversely, no one gives a fuck about someone's "So I totally quick-scoped him!" stories from Battlefield 3.
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#93 Feb 22 2012 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Article wrote:
We discussed our favorite online games, such as Battlefield 3, where the free-form combat leads to players telling each other their favorite stories about what happened on the battlefield.

Right. The difference being that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people paid money to play the story of Batman. Conversely, no one gives a fuck about someone's "So I totally quick-scoped him!" stories from Battlefield 3.


Dunno, this is some serious Die Hard 5 sh*t.
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#94 Feb 22 2012 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I've seen that. The fact that I knew exactly what video you were going to post makes me think it's the exception to the rule Smiley: grin
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#95 Feb 23 2012 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Video game stories are like golf stories or poker stories. Nobody cares except you. The only reason anyone even pretends to care is so that they can tell their own story and have you pretend to care.
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So there I was with a bear by the edge of a cliff. Then I shouted "Fus Ro Dah!" and it fell off! Hahahahah... this self-authoring thing is a gas.

I think the bottom line is that Jaffe and I have different opinions on what makes a good game. Fine enough as there's plenty of games out there and no deficit of multiplayer first person shooters if that's how you get your "story tellin'" on. Or platformers. Or simulations. Or rhythm games. Or strategy war games. Or point-n-click mystery solvers. Or...
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#97 Feb 23 2012 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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NEEDS MOAR CITYBUILDING GAMES.
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Banh
#98 Feb 23 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Noes, RTS!
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#99 Feb 23 2012 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Obviously the solution is more Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Real Time Citybuilding Strategy Role Playing Action Puzzle Games.
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#100 Feb 23 2012 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Obviously the solution is more Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Real Time Citybuilding Strategy Role Playing Action Puzzle Games.


And you have to play it with a old-timey joystick with a single button.

Smiley: nod
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#101 Feb 23 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Obviously the solution is more Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Real Time Citybuilding Strategy Role Playing Action Puzzle Games.


So Shogun?
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