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#227 Mar 08 2012 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Eske wrote:
Personally, if I couldn't choose between the two major candidates, I'd probably just vote for the most likely 3rd party one. The idea being that the vote would go towards making 3rd parties appear more viable in the future.


If you don't support the 3rd party candidate, then you're better off voting for one of the two major candidates because they have a better chance of actually winning. Unless you like voting for losers. What you said sounds nice on paper, but the reality is that unless others STOP voting for the two major candidates, your votes for the 3rd party will be overshadowed.


That is about as soundly as you could possibly miss the point. Wow. Honestly, wow.


I'm not sure what you're getting at, but my point is that you're an idiot for voting for a 3rd party that you don't support. That's even worse than voting for the lesser of two evils. You're better off not even getting out of the bed. Your belief that it will some how change the outcome in the future is false hope.


It changes things exactly as much as a single vote for any candidate. Which is to say, an infinitesimally small amount. But of course, that's not a reason to not vote.

Herp derp.
#228 Mar 08 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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So according to Alma, you shouldn't vote unless you know your vote is going to be that one vote that makes the difference.
#229 Mar 08 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So according to Alma,
For all we know he could be talking about the urban coefficient of beef byproduct electoral profits. Better to not try to decipher it.
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#230gbaji, Posted: Mar 08 2012 at 3:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're doing so poorly though. A test which cannot produce a true result is a meaningless test. That's logic. You test your test by determining if it can produce true/false results which match what we expect. In this case, if there is no claim about the reason for marriage benefits which can be supported with a primary source, then the lack of a primary source cannot be a valid test for any argued reason.
#231 Mar 08 2012 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Point taken.
#232 Mar 08 2012 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

Wrong. You are making the argument that only a primary source can be used to determine the reason marriage benefits were created and that since I can't provide a primary source detailing that reason, then my argument must be false.


You realize that, if that was the argument I was making, then demanding me to provide a primary source in oppossition to you wouldn't actually have anything to do with that?

I don't believe your argument. I cannot deny your conclusion because I don't believe your argument, but accepting the argument and denying the conclusion isn't an option.

If you want to prove your point, then prove your point. As of right now, I have no reason to believe you in either case. But the surest way to change that is to make a logically valid argument using sound premises.

***** and moan about how I'm not providing a contrary source. It still doesn't matter, because I've made no argument. I have only critiqued yours. You can continue to deflect if you want--I don't mind the +1s, but it's pathetic to watch.

[EDIT]

To clarify, I'm not concluding that your argument is false because you don't have any primary support. I don't believe the argument, and you've given me no reason to think otherwise. Primary support would change that by providing me solid proof that you are right.

I'm not saying it's false because you don't have proof. I'm saying it sounds ******* insane to me, and am offering you the chance to show me that I'm wrong.

For someone who just loves "proving" others wrong, you should be jumping at this opportunity. That fact that you are refusing to says a lot about your position.

Edited, Mar 8th 2012 4:58pm by idiggory
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#233gbaji, Posted: Mar 08 2012 at 4:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lol. Good luck with that. Have fun storming the castle!
#234 Mar 08 2012 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
...

blah blah blah


Got time for my request yet, or do you decline?
#235 Mar 08 2012 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe you missed it, but he was asking you to pick one. Any one. You'll pick the piece for which your argument is strongest, if you're smart.

He's not asking you to hand him all of marriage legislation.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#236gbaji, Posted: Mar 08 2012 at 4:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not refusing to support my position. I've done this many times already. The problem is that no matter how much support I provide, someone just keeps raising the bar. What's obnoxious about it is that the bar for their arguments are set so low as to be laughable. Just more of the double standard I guess.
#237 Mar 08 2012 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
...

blah blah blah


Got time for my request yet, or do you decline?


idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Maybe you missed it, but he was asking you to pick one. Any one. You'll pick the piece for which your argument is strongest, if you're smart.

He's not asking you to hand him all of marriage legislation.



Um... guys? Look up maybe?
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#238 Mar 08 2012 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
...

blah blah blah


Got time for my request yet, or do you decline?


idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Maybe you missed it, but he was asking you to pick one. Any one. You'll pick the piece for which your argument is strongest, if you're smart.

He's not asking you to hand him all of marriage legislation.



Um... guys? Look up maybe?


Pointing to an ENTIRE CHAPTER OF US CODE is NOT AT ALL SPECIFIC. It's akin to saying "I know where Waldo is!" and pointing to a sea of millions of people dressed in peppermint striped shirts and hats. Sure, in general, you may be on track, but it's not at all helpful. Which tax "benefit" would you like to discuss, specifically?
#239 Mar 08 2012 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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#240 Mar 08 2012 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm not sure what you're getting at,

This should be Alma's answer to every post.
#241 Mar 08 2012 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm asking you to provide a primary source that provides *any* reason for why we created those marriage benefits. Any reason. I don't care.


And what I'm telling you is that I don't care why we provided them, nor am I interested at the moment in conjecturing why they were created. I'm interested in your argument. My unwillngess or inability to provide a different answer doesn't help your argument at all.

Keep avoiding the question all you want thought.
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Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#242 Mar 08 2012 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
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BrownDuck wrote:

Pointing to an ENTIRE CHAPTER OF US CODE is NOT AT ALL SPECIFIC. It's akin to saying "I know where Waldo is!" and pointing to a sea of millions of people dressed in peppermint striped shirts and hats. Sure, in general, you may be on track, but it's not at all helpful. Which tax "benefit" would you like to discuss, specifically?



You get that US legal code doesn't come in separate paragraphs, right? You asked for the "exact US code which grants these benefits per your argument". Did you even click the link and read? As I already explained, the code isn't written with just "stuff that marriage does". It's divided into "stuff that affects tax rates, including marriage" and "stuff that affects social security, including marriage". I have provided you exactly that which you asked for.


Do you want me to quote just the parts that reference marriage? You'll lose formatting and links in the text, but here you go:

Quote:
a) Married individuals filing joint returns and surviving spouses
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of—
(1) every married individual (as defined in section 7703) who makes a single return jointly with his spouse under section 6013, and
(2) every surviving spouse (as defined in section 2 (a)),
a tax determined in accordance with the following table:

If taxable income is: The tax is:
Not over $36,900 15% of taxable income.
Over $36,900 but not over $89,150 $5,535, plus 28% of the excess over $36,900.
Over $89,150 but not over $140,000 $20,165, plus 31% of the excess over $89,150.
Over $140,000 but not over $250,000 $35,928.50, plus 36% of the excess over $140,000.
Over $250,000 $75,528.50, plus 39.6% of the excess over $250,000.


and

Quote:
d) Married individuals filing separate returns
There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every married individual (as defined in section 7703) who does not make a single return jointly with his spouse under section 6013, a tax determined in accordance with the following table:

If taxable income is: The tax is:
Not over $18,450 15% of taxable income.
Over $18,450 but not over $44,575 $2,767.50, plus 28% of the excess over $18,450.
Over $44,575 but not over $70,000 $10,082.50, plus 31% of the excess over $44,575.
Over $70,000 but not over $125,000 $17,964.25, plus 36% of the excess over $70,000.
Over $125,000 $37,764.25, plus 39.6% of the excess over $125,000.



and

Quote:
(f) Phaseout of marriage penalty in 15-percent bracket; adjustments in tax tables so that inflation will not result in tax increases
(1) In general
Not later than December 15 of 1993, and each subsequent calendar year, the Secretary shall prescribe tables which shall apply in lieu of the tables contained in subsections (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) with respect to taxable years beginning in the succeeding calendar year.
(2) Method of prescribing tables
The table which under paragraph (1) is to apply in lieu of the table contained in subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e), as the case may be, with respect to taxable years beginning in any calendar year shall be prescribed—
(A) except as provided in paragraph (8), by increasing the minimum and maximum dollar amounts for each rate bracket for which a tax is imposed under such table by the cost-of-living adjustment for such calendar year,
(B) by not changing the rate applicable to any rate bracket as adjusted under subparagraph (A), and
(C) by adjusting the amounts setting forth the tax to the extent necessary to reflect the adjustments in the rate brackets.
(3) Cost-of-living adjustment
For purposes of paragraph (2), the cost-of-living adjustment for any calendar year is the percentage (if any) by which—
(A) the CPI for the preceding calendar year, exceeds
(B) the CPI for the calendar year 1992.
(4) CPI for any calendar year
For purposes of paragraph (3), the CPI for any calendar year is the average of the Consumer Price Index as of the close of the 12-month period ending on August 31 of such calendar year.
(5) Consumer Price Index
For purposes of paragraph (4), the term “Consumer Price Index” means the last Consumer Price Index for all-urban consumers published by the Department of Labor. For purposes of the preceding sentence, the revision of the Consumer Price Index which is most consistent with the Consumer Price Index for calendar year 1986 shall be used.
(6) Rounding
(A) In general
If any increase determined under paragraph (2)(A), section 63 (c)(4), section 68(b)(2) or section 151 (d)(4) is not a multiple of $50, such increase shall be rounded to the next lowest multiple of $50.
(B) Table for married individuals filing separately
In the case of a married individual filing a separate return, subparagraph (A) (other than with respect to sections 63 (c)(4) and 151 (d)(4)(A)) shall be applied by substituting “$25” for “$50” each place it appears.
(7) Special rule for certain brackets
(A) Calendar year 1994
In prescribing the tables under paragraph (1) which apply with respect to taxable years beginning in calendar year 1994, the Secretary shall make no adjustment to the dollar amounts at which the 36 percent rate bracket begins or at which the 39.6 percent rate begins under any table contained in subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e).
(B) Later calendar years
In prescribing tables under paragraph (1) which apply with respect to taxable years beginning in a calendar year after 1994, the cost-of-living adjustment used in making adjustments to the dollar amounts referred to in subparagraph (A) shall be determined under paragraph (3) by substituting “1993” for “1992”.
(8) Elimination of marriage penalty in 15-percent bracket
With respect to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2003, in prescribing the tables under paragraph (1)—
(A) the maximum taxable income in the 15-percent rate bracket in the table contained in subsection (a) (and the minimum taxable income in the next higher taxable income bracket in such table) shall be 200 percent of the maximum taxable income in the 15-percent rate bracket in the table contained in subsection (c) (after any other adjustment under this subsection), and
(B) the comparable taxable income amounts in the table contained in subsection (d) shall be 1/2 of the amounts determined under subparagraph (A).



and

Quote:
(5) Special rules for determining parent to whom subsection applies
For purposes of this subsection, the parent whose taxable income shall be taken into account shall be—
(A) in the case of parents who are not married (within the meaning of section 7703), the custodial parent (within the meaning of section 152(e)) of the child, and
(B) in the case of married individuals filing separately, the individual with the greater taxable income.




There. That's every part either specific to, or that references, marriage in this section of the US legal code. I've given you plenty to work with, now you go get to finding those primary sources explaining exactly why the tax brackets are different and there's a whole section on phasing out the marriage penalty, and why there's a special mention of married and unmarried folks in the section on "(g) Certain unearned income of children taxed as if parent’s income ".


As I said earlier: Knock yourself out. Have fun storming the castle!


Remember that this is precisely what you have demanded that I must do in order to defend my position. I think it's ridiculous, but by all means prove me wrong if you can.
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#243 Mar 08 2012 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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He's asking for a specific piece of legislation, you moron, not a piece of legal code. Pick out a single act that created any marriage benefit of your choosing, and he'll take it from there.
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#244 Mar 08 2012 at 7:44 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
I'm asking you to provide a primary source that provides *any* reason for why we created those marriage benefits. Any reason. I don't care.


And what I'm telling you is that I don't care why we provided them, nor am I interested at the moment in conjecturing why they were created. I'm interested in your argument.


Are you? Because my argument is about why we created those benefits. So you kinda need to decide if you care about, or don't care about that.

Quote:
My unwillngess or inability to provide a different answer doesn't help your argument at all.


I suspect you don't have a clue what my argument is. How about you start over and re-read everything I've written in this thread. Then, when you know what I'm saying and *why* I'm saying it, come back and ask an intelligent question.

Quote:
Keep avoiding the question all you want thought.


I'm sorry? There was a question in there? See. I *thought* you were asking me why I don't believe that a primary source is necessary to prove my point. But then you said you didn't care about primary sources, so I assume you were asking what I believe is the reason for creating the marriage benefits. But apparently you are now claiming you don't care about that either.


So I guess we're left with you babbling incoherently? Do you have a question? Or are you just posting random contrary crap? Cause it sure seems like the latter.
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#245 Mar 08 2012 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
He's asking for a specific piece of legislation, you moron, not a piece of legal code.


BrownDuck wrote:
2. I'm asking you to identify the exact U.S. code which grants these benefits per your argument.


Sigh... Might want to hold that moron-mirror up to you own face.

Quote:
Pick out a single act that created any marriage benefit of your choosing, and he'll take it from there.


Not what he asked for. I could do that too, but I guarantee you he still wont find a "primary source" that provides the information being asked for here.
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#246 Mar 08 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Default
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Huh. Running into a lot of this:

Quote:
The text of this statute is not available

Unfortunately, public sources of the Statutes at Large leave a lot out. The Library of Congress has mounted volumes 1-18 (to 1874) as part of its American Memory collection. The Government Printing Office took responsibility for the Statutes in 1875, but has only made electronic versions available from 1995 onward (volumes 109 and up).


So I guess that limits us to marriage benefits created before 1875 or after 1995. Tricksy...


Is this seriously the right way to do this? All to prove that a primary source is not necessary to make a good sound argument?
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#247 Mar 08 2012 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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#248 Mar 08 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Here Brownduck. Since I was bored, I figured I'd help you out:

H.R.3734 (not sure if the direct link will work, but you should be able to search by the name).

Relevant portions:

Quote:
Denies TANF assistance in cases: (1) where an individual family member is a fugitive felon or a probation or parole violator; and (2) where unmarried teenage parents with a minor child at least 12 weeks of age in their care do not attend high school or other equivalent training program.


Quote:
Requires, in addition, certain adult-supervised living arrangements for unmarried teenage parents in order for them to receive TANF


Quote:
(Sec. 803) Treats children who are themselves parents living with their children and married children living with their spouses as part of an existing household rather than as a separate household.



By all means, knock yourself out finding a "primary source" which explains why we give benefits to married teens over unmarried ones with regard to TANF and why a married teen is part of a household, but not an unmarried one. Those three quoted bits are clear advantages for a married person over an unmarried one, right? Can you find any information as to why?


Go ahead and knock yourself out finding a primary source which answers that question. I mean, I think most of us can noodle it out in this case, but you insist that only a primary source will do, so I guess we all just have to shut our brains off and wait for someone to write something down and put it in front of us or something!


You ready to knock off the whole "primary source" requirement yet?
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#249 Mar 08 2012 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Here Brownduck. Since I was bored, I figured I'd help you out:

H.R.3734 (not sure if the direct link will work, but you should be able to search by the name).

Relevant portions:

Quote:
Denies TANF assistance in cases: (1) where an individual family member is a fugitive felon or a probation or parole violator; and (2) where unmarried teenage parents with a minor child at least 12 weeks of age in their care do not attend high school or other equivalent training program.


Quote:
Requires, in addition, certain adult-supervised living arrangements for unmarried teenage parents in order for them to receive TANF


Quote:
(Sec. 803) Treats children who are themselves parents living with their children and married children living with their spouses as part of an existing household rather than as a separate household.



By all means, knock yourself out finding a "primary source" which explains why we give benefits to married teens over unmarried ones with regard to TANF and why a married teen is part of a household, but not an unmarried one. Those three quoted bits are clear advantages for a married person over an unmarried one, right? Can you find any information as to why?


Go ahead and knock yourself out finding a primary source which answers that question. I mean, I think most of us can noodle it out in this case, but you insist that only a primary source will do, so I guess we all just have to shut our brains off and wait for someone to write something down and put it in front of us or something!


Can we agree that a primary source would include the direct findings of a congressional committee involved in the creation of said legislation? Yes, I thought we could. In that case, you need to look no further than the beginning of the final bill itself.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-104hr3734enr/pdf/BILLS-104hr3734enr.pdf wrote:

TITLE I—BLOCK GRANTS FOR TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES
Sec. 101 - Findings

- Marriage is an essential institution of a successful society which promotes the interests of children.

- It is estimated that the rate of nonmarital teen pregnancy rose 23 percent from 54 pregnancies per 1,000 unmarried teenagers in 1976 to 66.7 pregnancies in 1991. The overall rate of nonmarital pregnancy rose 14 percent from 90.8 pregnancies per 1,000 unmarried women in 1980 to 103 in both 1991 and 1992. In contrast, the overall pregnancy rate for married couples decreased 7.3 percent between 1980 and 1991, from 126.9 pregnancies per 1,000 married women in 1980 to 117.6 pregnancies in 1991.

- The number of individuals receiving aid to families with dependent children (in this section referred to as ‘‘AFDC’’) has more than tripled since 1965. More than two-thirds of these recipients are children. Eighty-nine percent of children receiving AFDC benefits now live in homes in which no father is present.

- While the number of children receiving AFDC benefits increased nearly threefold between 1965 and 1992,
the total number of children in the United States aged
0 to 18 has declined by 5.5 percent.

- The increase in the number of children receiving public assistance is closely related to the increase in births to unmarried women. Between 1970 and 1991, the percentage of live births to unmarried women increased nearly threefold, from 10.7 percent to 29.5 percent

- Between 1985 and 1990, the public cost of births to teenage mothers under the aid to families with dependent children program, the food stamp program, and the medicaid program has been estimated at $120,000,000,000.

Therefore, in light of this demonstration of the crisis in our Nation, it is the sense of the Congress that prevention of out-of-wedlock pregnancy and reduction in out-of-wedlock birth are very important Government interests and the policy contained in part A of title IV of the Social Security Act (as amended by section 103(a) of this Act) is intended to address the crisis


Goodness gracious that was hard!

The primary finding of the congressional committee(s) was that single parent teen families were on the rise and this was encouraging an over-dependence on a program designed to help families get back on their feet, not provide long term assistance to single parents who make no effort to improve the quality of life for their children. To that end, the bill was drafted to end this abuse of the program by adding in the qualifications you conveniently quoted above.

So, what we have here is:

1. A program devised to help needy families.
2. Subsequent long term abuse of said program by single parent families.
3. A bill drafted with the intention of ending said abuse by addressing the root cause - single parent families.

Agreed? No? Just in case not...


TITLE I—BLOCK GRANTS FOR TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE FOR NEEDY FAMILIES
Sec. 401 - PURPOSE


(a) IN GENERAL.—The purpose of this part is to increase the flexibility  
of States in operating  
     a program designed to — 
   (1) provide assistance to needy families so that children may be cared for in their own  
       homes or in the homes of relatives; 
   (2) end the dependence of needy parents on government benefits by promoting job  
       preparation, work, and marriage; 
   (3) prevent and reduce the incidence of out-of-wedlock pregnancies and establish annual     
       numerical goals for preventing and reducing the incidence of these pregnancies; and 
   (4) encourage the formation and maintenance of two-parent families.


In conclusion, this bill clarifies the belief that single parent families are less successful (measured by the welfare and future success of the children) than two parent families and establishes a goal to promote the prevention and reduction of single parent homes by a) encouraging job training and preparation and b) eliminating an "easy out" in the form of additional government benefits.

It is important to note here that aside from casual use of the words "mother" and "father" within social context, this bill makes no attempt to distinguish between a successful heterosexual two parent family vs. a successful homosexual two parent family. The only claim is that two parents is better than one.

Edited, Mar 8th 2012 9:42pm by BrownDuck
#250gbaji, Posted: Mar 09 2012 at 6:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Except for the whole "trying to prevent out of wedlock births" bit.
#251 Mar 09 2012 at 8:40 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
So here's a primary source which sets a benefit to being married based primarily on the assumption that it is in the states interest to reduce the rate of out of wedlock births.

We're agreed on this?


Sure.

Quote:
Isn't that exactly the argument I've been making in this thread the whole damn time? If the reason the state created these benefits is to discourage out of wedlock births (presumably by encouraging people to marry), doesn't it only make sense in the case of people who are creating the problem in the first place? Are there a lot of poor gay people on foodstamps who keep getting pregnant and putting more kids into a dependent state? No?


So does it make sense to provide this benefit to a gay couple? No. It doesn't.


Here's the part that makes you an idiot. There's nothing stopping any single mother from realizing that she's gay and wanting to marry a female lover. The same goes for a single father (which although more rare, does exist) who decides he's gay and wants to marry a male lover. The same could even be said for an already gay couple who wishes to adopt a child. In all three cases, there's no legitimate reason to deny the same benefits to such a couple should they fall on hard times. This does not justify your argument that marriage is only for heterosexual child-bearing couples, nor does it preempt the legitimacy of any homosexual marriage at all. Indeed, even a typical heterosexual couple might not qualify for these very b0enefits if they are not raising a child. This particular benefit has everything to do with providing for children, and absolutely NOTHING to do with the marriage of two people who love each other, except to say that marriage increases the likelihood that a child will have the benefit of two parents, regardless of the sex of each parent.

Try again.


Edited, Mar 9th 2012 8:41pm by BrownDuck
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