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#127 Feb 14 2012 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure. But that's a separate assessment of the need for such funding at the federal level. I don't think it's fair to compare the dollars spent on each of those things at the federal level and make a broad pronouncement that one is underfunded, and the other overfunded.


Except that that was the point. Someone was expressing dissatisfaction that we weren't spending federal dollars there. Whether or not states provide the bulk of education funds doesn't invalidate that opinion, or make it irrelevant. They are specifically stating they think it is something that needs to change.

To put it in different terms, they are specifically opposing the lack of federal interest in American education reform, regardless of how involved individual states are in their own education systems. I don't like education as a state issue, because I think every American deserves to receive a top-notch education. It isn't something that needs to be subject to stateside decisions.
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#128 Feb 14 2012 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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Sure. But that's a separate assessment of the need for such funding at the federal level. I don't think it's fair to compare the dollars spent on each of those things at the federal level and make a broad pronouncement that one is underfunded, and the other overfunded.


Except that that was the point. Someone was expressing dissatisfaction that we weren't spending federal dollars there. Whether or not states provide the bulk of education funds doesn't invalidate that opinion, or make it irrelevant. They are specifically stating they think it is something that needs to change.


This. Also...

gbaji wrote:
But that doesn't change the totals, right? So you pay less state taxes and higher federal taxes to shift the spending from one level to the other


No, I'm not suggesting shifting the funding from state to federal level. I'm suggesting leaving state funding as-is and moving money from the defense discretionary budget into the education budget. I want MORE money for our schools, not simply a chance in funding source.
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#129 Feb 14 2012 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:

Sure. But that's a separate assessment of the need for such funding at the federal level. I don't think it's fair to compare the dollars spent on each of those things at the federal level and make a broad pronouncement that one is underfunded, and the other overfunded.


Except that that was the point. Someone was expressing dissatisfaction that we weren't spending federal dollars there.


That's only a half truth though. Said person argued that we should cut spending on the military and shift it to education. He was making a direct comparison between the spending on those things and arguing that we spend too much on one and not enough on the other.

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Whether or not states provide the bulk of education funds doesn't invalidate that opinion, or make it irrelevant.


If his entire argument was that we should add some additional federal funds to augment that spent at the state and local levels, sure. But that's not what he said. He was making an argument about relative dollars spent. And if you're going to make that argument you need to look at *all* the dollars spent on something, not just those that are spent by a single source. It would be like if I focused only on dollars given to schools as a result of cookie sales and compare them to dollars earned by the Girl Scouts from their cookie sales and conclude that we should take money from the Girl Scouts and give it to the schools. It would be perfectly legitimate to point out that cookie sales are not the primary source of funding for our schools, but it is for the Girl Scouts.

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They are specifically stating they think it is something that needs to change.


Then make that argument without talking about the military. If you think that we need to spend more federal dollars, them make that case. Tossing in some other area of spending and arguing we should shift funds away is avoiding the issue IMO.

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To put it in different terms, they are specifically opposing the lack of federal interest in American education reform, regardless of how involved individual states are in their own education systems. I don't like education as a state issue, because I think every American deserves to receive a top-notch education. It isn't something that needs to be subject to stateside decisions.



There's a whole lot of states rights folks who'd argue you're wrong, along with a couple sections of the US constitution.
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#130 Feb 14 2012 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
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To put it in different terms, they are specifically opposing the lack of federal interest in American education reform, regardless of how involved individual states are in their own education systems. I don't like education as a state issue, because I think every American deserves to receive a top-notch education. It isn't something that needs to be subject to stateside decisions.
There's a whole lot of states rights folks who'd argue you're wrong, along with a couple sections of the US constitution.

There's a whole lot of nations with much higher scores who would argue that maybe the couple deified guys who died hundreds of years ago knew less about modern education than they do.
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#131 Feb 14 2012 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Quote:
To put it in different terms, they are specifically opposing the lack of federal interest in American education reform, regardless of how involved individual states are in their own education systems. I don't like education as a state issue, because I think every American deserves to receive a top-notch education. It isn't something that needs to be subject to stateside decisions.
There's a whole lot of states rights folks who'd argue you're wrong, along with a couple sections of the US constitution.

There's a whole lot of nations with much higher scores who would argue that maybe the couple deified guys who died hundreds of years ago knew less about modern education than they do.


And a whole lot with lower scores as well. The reasons for our system of government being set up the way it is are broader than just how national test score results come out. We limit the federal government and hand over the power to enact broader programs to the states on the principle that any government can make bad choices. This applies at any level. It's somewhat foolish to assume that a federal body setting policy for education would do a better job than any state body would. The advantage of doing it at the state level is that we aren't putting all our eggs in one basket. States can look around at other states, see what works, and what doesn't, and make adjustments to their own systems. It's harder to do this at a federal level. While you can look at other countries, the differences between one country and another, and thus the needs of an education system, will vary more between countries than between states within a country.


I also still think this is avoiding the issue. The issue really isn't about funding, and it's certainly not about where we fund from. It has to do with a whole set of systemic conditions within our education system. And frankly, right now, the biggest problems are the mandates that come with that 15% or so of total funding that comes from the federal government. While our federal government, and their advocates, seem to constantly talk about how federal level funding can help improve our schools nationwide, their track record over the last few decades has been less than stellar. Any argument for increasing federal funding (and thus involvement and control) would need to be matched with a good argument for how we'd change the focus and methods of that involvement.


And yes. I include both GOP and Dems in that assertion. Neither party has been particularly good at implementing federal level education programs that actually deliver on their promises. For the most part, all we've done is add so many layers of bureaucracy into our system that schools can't do what is best for their students, and teachers cant teach in the ways they believe will best reach the students. What's lost in all the talk of Finland and their fully publicly funded system, is that it's not where the money comes from that matters (because a proposed voucher system would *also* mean federal funding was involved), but that the schools and the teachers are left alone to make their own choices about how to best teach the kids. They certainly don't have the kinds of ridiculously restrictive requirements that our teachers have to follow. They hire the best teachers and give them broad education objectives, and then let them teach.


BTW, this isn't much different than what works well in our private schools right now, and doesn't work well in our public schools.
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#132 Feb 14 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And a whole lot with lower scores as well.

Gee, so maybe we should emulate the better ones and not those, huh?

Education MUST suck if you couldn't figure that one out Smiley: rolleyes
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#133 Feb 14 2012 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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The state vs. federal division of powers formed in a completely different historical context and, quite frankly, no longer applies. It was formed in response to the establishment of the new Aristocracy by the Federalist Party, to protect commoners (primarily farmers) from class oppression.

To make it clear, think about the fact that Federalists and Anti-Federalists most frequently critiqued each other using language of the French Revolution. Federalists called Anti-Federalists Jacobins, Anti-Federalists called Federalists elitist aristocrats.

Anti-Federalists, who eventually gained control of the system under the Democratic-Republican Party, which later split into two, originally wanted a Confederacy. They never wanted the US to be a country at all, but when the Constitution was ratified they didn't have enough political power to oppose it (since the vast majority of politicians at the time were federalist). After they gained power 15 years later, it was too late to really change anything.

State power had always existed to protect people from being controlled by a small, elite group.

You might have noticed that, in the context of the modern day, it's not doing that job anymore.

If you think state powers should still be respected, fine. But don't make it about the reasons they were established, because it just doesn't apply anymore. For one, the average person isn't at all protected by an elite by state power, in the context of the modern US. More importantly, the constitution left everything else to the states because it was always meant to be an amendable document. It was designed for the way the US was at the time, not for the way the world would change.
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#134 Feb 14 2012 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And a whole lot with lower scores as well.

Gee, so maybe we should emulate the better ones and not those, huh?


Sure. But do you see how simply saying "let's nationalize our education system" doesn't do that?

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Education MUST suck if you couldn't figure that one out Smiley: rolleyes


That's some irony for you.
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#135 Feb 14 2012 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The state vs. federal division of powers formed in a completely different historical context and, quite frankly, no longer applies.


Until the constitution is amended, it still applies. No amount of pretending it doesn't makes it so.


Quote:
It was formed in response to the establishment of the new Aristocracy by the Federalist Party, to protect commoners (primarily farmers) from class oppression.

To make it clear, think about the fact that Federalists and Anti-Federalists most frequently critiqued each other using language of the French Revolution. Federalists called Anti-Federalists Jacobins, Anti-Federalists called Federalists elitist aristocrats.

Anti-Federalists, who eventually gained control of the system under the Democratic-Republican Party, which later split into two, originally wanted a Confederacy. They never wanted the US to be a country at all, but when the Constitution was ratified they didn't have enough political power to oppose it (since the vast majority of politicians at the time were federalist). After they gained power 15 years later, it was too late to really change anything.


Nice history lesson, I guess. Smiley: rolleyes

Quote:
State power had always existed to protect people from being controlled by a small, elite group.


Yes. And they realized that the smallest and most elite group would be a powerful central government. See how that works? They realized that if you didn't give the federal government that much direct power over the individual citizens, then it wouldn't matter what faction those who held power were. They would not be able to use it to abuse the rights of the people. That was the whole **** point.

Go do some research on Hamilton sometime to see how even one of the most staunch Federalists of the day still strongly supported the idea of limited government (just not as limited).

Quote:
You might have noticed that, in the context of the modern day, it's not doing that job anymore.


Yes. Because in the intervening years, the federal government has steadily encroached on the powers of the states. Arguing that states rights aren't protecting us from federal abuse of power because we've already limited states rights so much that it's no longer protecting us that well is a pretty crappy argument. Or did you mean some other power that it's failed to protect us from?

Quote:
If you think state powers should still be respected, fine. But don't make it about the reasons they were established, because it just doesn't apply anymore.


Again, of course they apply. Why would you think otherwise?

Quote:
For one, the average person isn't at all protected by an elite by state power, in the context of the modern US.


I don't know what you meant here at all. Care to clarify?

Quote:
More importantly, the constitution left everything else to the states because it was always meant to be an amendable document.


Um... No. That's completely wrong. The left that power to the states because the states didn't trust a central federal government not to abuse its power. They feared that it would take from the more prosperous states higher taxes and then use those taxes to buy the support of the less prosperous states. They limited its power to prevent exactly what has happened from happening.

Quote:
It was designed for the way the US was at the time, not for the way the world would change.


Then by all means, argue for an amendment to the constitution. What drives me nuts is people who talk about the constitution being a "living document" and how some rules written within really don't apply anymore, so we should just ignore them and pretend that the constitution doesn't say what it says. There's a process for changing the words of the constitution. That is the correct method for changing the document to reflect changing world conditions around us. The wrong method is to just re-interpret the constitution after the fact and pretend that it really means something different now than it did back then.
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#136 Feb 14 2012 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Sure. But do you see how simply saying "let's nationalize our education system" doesn't do that?

It's almost as though my entire solution isn't simply "let's nationalize our education system"!

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That's some irony for you.

You can't just pick random words because you think they make you sound smart. They need to be appropriate as well.
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#137 Feb 14 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, your response of "then argue to make an amendment" kinda makes no sense when the original point was that the federal government should be spending more. That quite obviously includes the necessary legislation for spending.

You tried to derail the conversation about saying it would be contrary to the separation of powers. My response was that I don't think the separation of powers is important here. You either need to accept my argument, or respond why I'm wrong. Telling me to make an argument just kinda puts us in this infinite loop of stupidity.

Oh, and if you think Hamilton liked the idea of limited government, I'm starting to understand how you can think what Republicans want is small government. Hamilton supported the concept of lifelong representatives, he wanted the presidential veto to be absolute, he was an advocate for the federal government's rights to tax the people to fund a federal military force (which even many federalists were afraid of), as well as a national control over the economy. I could keep going, but I won't. Some of these ideas aren't problematic for us (largely because they've existed for so long and we accept them now... to an extent), but for the time he was essentially arguing for a non-hereditary monarchy. In fact, his own draft of the constitution was EXTREMELY similar to the British parliamentary system of the time.
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#138 Feb 15 2012 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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Sure. But do you see how simply saying "let's nationalize our education system" doesn't do that?


Yet the countries with better education all have national education subsidies, with education requirements being determined and paid for at the provincial/state/district level. Id say that the facts show it does do that, but you aren't one for facts, so I won't.
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#139 Feb 15 2012 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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It's obviously also important to note that we would specifically be placing education in the federal government's hands for the sake of equality. We aren't talking about a Chinese structure, we are specifically talking about one in which a major goal is providing an equal and quality education to every child.
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#140 Feb 15 2012 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It might also be nice if schools focused more on academics then sports programs.
Why do you want everyone to be fat?


I can't speak for Belkira, but I want everyone to be fat because I hate jocks. They were mean to me in high school. Smiley: frown
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#141 Feb 15 2012 at 3:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It might also be nice if schools focused more on academics then sports programs.
Why do you want everyone to be fat?


I can't speak for Belkira, but I want everyone to be fat because I hate jocks. They were mean to me in high school. Smiley: frown


Smiley: lol

I don't want anyone to be fat. PE has it's place in schools, I think. But giving kids scholarships because they can play football seems silly to me. And passing them just to keep them playing instead of being on academic probation is horrible.
#142 Feb 15 2012 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Belkira wrote:
It might also be nice if schools focused more on academics then sports programs.
Why do you want everyone to be fat?


I can't speak for Belkira, but I want everyone to be fat because I hate jocks. They were mean to me in high school. Smiley: frown


Smiley: lol

I don't want anyone to be fat. PE has it's place in schools, I think. But giving kids scholarships because they can play football seems silly to me. And passing them just to keep them playing instead of being on academic probation is horrible.

Glad we don't have that here.
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#143 Feb 15 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Glad we don't have that here.
Of course not. Your Football Clubs would just pay the schools.
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#144 Feb 15 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Belkira wrote:
I don't want anyone to be fat. PE has it's place in schools, I think. But giving kids scholarships because they can play football seems silly to me. And passing them just to keep them playing instead of being on academic probation is horrible.


That, and how much funding the sports teams get in general. It's ridiculous. My own high school is guilty of this. Band, choir, theater, all got very minimal funding, if any at all. Our theater department was self sustaining, I don't think we got any funding aside from the bonus the teacher in charge got for running it. The sports teams got new uniforms every couple of years, and new equipment, etc. My sophomore year in high school, when we got a new principal, he actually brought pizza down to the volleyball teams' practice as his way of introducing himself. He really liked volleyball, apparently. His Ph.D. was in physical education.

My university is 10x worse. I'm sure part of it is that our football team brings in a lot of revenue for the school, but even still. The preferential treatment ****** me off so much. We have girlfriend abusers, thieves, druggies, and all sorts of other colorful folks on the football team, but they don't get kicked off or kicked out of school. If a non-athlete did any of those things, they'd be out of school ASAP. The student athletes also get to stay in the nicest of the dorms (the ones with private showers and huge *** rooms) as part of their scholarship, and a new athlete study center was put in a couple years ago, which cost the school well over a million dollars to build. The real sore point of this study center, is that only athletes are allowed above the first floor. There's probably 3 or 4 floors. I get that student athletes have issues with getting their homework done due to how busy their schedules are. I don't begrudge them having tutors and such to help them with that, but what about study centers and tutors for the rest of us? I have a scholarship with various other aids due to me being a non-traditional student (since I have a pell grant, am a first generation student, and now have a documented mental disability). You know what we get? We get a room about the size of a dorm room, with three computers and a big table with chairs. That's our study center. Granted, the 70 free prints a term is nice, but it just seems incredibly unfair that we get so little help and the student athletes get so much.
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#145 Feb 15 2012 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
it just seems incredibly unfair that we get so little help and the student athletes get so much.
Make the school more money. I was with you on high school, you lost me when you moved on to secondary.
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#146 Feb 15 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
I didn't say it doesn't make sense, I said it isn't fair. Schools should act like schools, not businesses.
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#147 Feb 15 2012 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
it just seems incredibly unfair that we get so little help and the student athletes get so much.
Make the school more money. I was with you on high school, you lost me when you moved on to secondary.


If we were talking about a private institution, that would be fair. But public shouldn't be for profit. Imo, at least. And the advantages they get are pretty absurd.

Rutgers, for example, has a separate tutoring program for athletes. The tutors make $25+ an hour (don't remember the exact figure, but I think it's $30). None of that comes out of the athletes' pockets. Normal tutors are minimum wage, usually tutor 2-3+ students at a time, and aren't subject to the same level of quality controls as for the athletes'.

My school is a public university and the perks for athletes shouldn't be that huge. I don't mind certain things--for instance, the fact that there's a separate clinic for athletes, so they don't need to fight for an appointment at the normal one. It exists, in theory, for sports therapy, but they are just as fully stocked on everything else as the normal one. Still, though, they are more likely to be injured, so I don't mind.

Having established rules that allow them to (within reason) move around tests or waive attendance requirements on those days? Fine--they can't control their sports schedule and are under contract to attend. Irritates me that the same is never extended to any other working person, but I'll ignore that as you can go through the hassle of getting Dean's approval (though good luck getting that before add/drop period is over).

But having systems in place specifically to ensure that they pass their classes, where everyone else is left to fail? That's not okay.
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#148 Feb 15 2012 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But public shouldn't be for profit.
Good luck getting a decent theater or art department.
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#149 Feb 15 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
it just seems incredibly unfair that we get so little help and the student athletes get so much.
Make the school more money. I was with you on high school, you lost me when you moved on to secondary.


If we were talking about a private institution, that would be fair. But public shouldn't be for profit. Imo, at least. And the advantages they get are pretty absurd.

Rutgers, for example, has a separate tutoring program for athletes. The tutors make $25+ an hour (don't remember the exact figure, but I think it's $30). None of that comes out of the athletes' pockets. Normal tutors are minimum wage, usually tutor 2-3+ students at a time, and aren't subject to the same level of quality controls as for the athletes'.

My school is a public university and the perks for athletes shouldn't be that huge. I don't mind certain things--for instance, the fact that there's a separate clinic for athletes, so they don't need to fight for an appointment at the normal one. It exists, in theory, for sports therapy, but they are just as fully stocked on everything else as the normal one. Still, though, they are more likely to be injured, so I don't mind.

Having established rules that allow them to (within reason) move around tests or waive attendance requirements on those days? Fine--they can't control their sports schedule and are under contract to attend. Irritates me that the same is never extended to any other working person, but I'll ignore that as you can go through the hassle of getting Dean's approval (though good luck getting that before add/drop period is over).

But having systems in place specifically to ensure that they pass their classes, where everyone else is left to fail? That's not okay.


I'm not so sure about that specific example you provided. You have to keep in mind that student athletes have an obligation to the school practice and train for very long hours. Coaches pressure them to devote time to sports, and not academics. That makes it more difficult to find time to study, and to study well.

It's also time that they can't be working a part time job for cash, something that other students might be able to easily manage. Or, if they still tack on a job, there's even less precious time for academics.

Separate tutoring seems within the realm of reason to me, with that in mind. I highly doubt that many of them are surpassing their classmates regardless, if they're remotely like the student athletes that I'm familiar with.

Now, that's just that example. I tend to side against athlete benefits in most issues that come up (particularly with the notion of paying them).
#150 Feb 15 2012 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
it just seems incredibly unfair that we get so little help and the student athletes get so much.
Make the school more money. I was with you on high school, you lost me when you moved on to secondary.


If we were talking about a private institution, that would be fair. But public shouldn't be for profit. Imo, at least.


Don't confuse revenue with profit. While university sports may be a money maker, a lot of that money is dumped right back into the program. What's left over is either invested in the program's future or distributed to similar programs at the university (or in some cases, the really deep pockets of school officials, but then, that's a different ethical argument).
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#151 Feb 15 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, your response of "then argue to make an amendment" kinda makes no sense when the original point was that the federal government should be spending more. That quite obviously includes the necessary legislation for spending.


I was responding to more than just increased federal funding. That specific response was to an argument that we shift education as a whole from a state responsibility to a federal one. That's a **** of a lot more than just "let's increase funding for some federal education grants". And it would require a constitutional amendment.

Quote:
You tried to derail the conversation about saying it would be contrary to the separation of powers.


The thing I was responding to would be. You do realize that there are multiple arguments being made here, and thus multiple responses are valid? You're trying to apply my response to one thing as though I said it in response to something else. Try to keep on track please.

Quote:
My response was that I don't think the separation of powers is important here. You either need to accept my argument, or respond why I'm wrong. Telling me to make an argument just kinda puts us in this infinite loop of stupidity.


If we are talking about changing from a model where the states and localities raise taxes and fund/mange education directly and locally with the federal government creating grant programs that those local education systems can apply for and receive to one where everyone pays federal taxes directly into one big pool which is then divvied up by the federal government across the whole nation, then you have to amend the constitution. Since this was the exact thing someone argued we should do, then me pointing out that this violates states rights and would/should require a constitutional amendment to do is perfectly valid.

If you are arguing that no constitutional amendment is required in that case, then you are wrong. If you are arguing about something different, then you are wrong. Either way, you are wrong.

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Oh, and if you think Hamilton liked the idea of limited government, I'm starting to understand how you can think what Republicans want is small government. Hamilton supported the concept of lifelong representatives, he wanted the presidential veto to be absolute, he was an advocate for the federal government's rights to tax the people to fund a federal military force (which even many federalists were afraid of), as well as a national control over the economy. I could keep going, but I won't. Some of these ideas aren't problematic for us (largely because they've existed for so long and we accept them now... to an extent), but for the time he was essentially arguing for a non-hereditary monarchy. In fact, his own draft of the constitution was EXTREMELY similar to the British parliamentary system of the time.


You are making the common mistake (common these days anyway) of confusing size and scope. Hamilton believed that there were specific things that the federal government should do, and believed that it should have full authority and power to do those things. His concept of limited government was not that government should be limited in authority in the areas it operated in, but that it should be limited in the areas it operated in. Hamilton also was a fervent advocate for the idea that any power that did not need to be operated at the federal level should not be and that the states should have absolute power in those areas.


The mistake you are making is the same one people make today when they try to argue that conservatives are being inconsistent (or hypocritical) when they oppose funding for health care, while supporting it for the military. It's not about the dollars spent (not entirely at least). It's about the things that we're giving the federal government authority over. The same can be said when conservatives fail to get as upset at Romney for his health care in Mass, as we do over Obamacare. Because it's not just about what is being done, but what level of the government is doing it.


At the end of the day, if the federal government fails to maintain a sufficient military, there is a risk that our liberties could be lost as a result. If the federal government fails to pay for people's health care, there is no risk to liberty. Since both require an infringement of liberties to provide (in the form of taxes at the very least), then we should avoid the one that doesn't protect our liberties and allow the one that does. The federal government has no business providing health care. Period. It has no business providing education either. The fact that it does do these things (even partially as in the case of education) should not be taken as a justification for it doing more of these things.
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