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#102 Feb 16 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're going to have to make another old woman disappear first, Joph.
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#103 Feb 16 2012 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

Who, exactly, are these people?


What did you want? A list of names?
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#104 Feb 16 2012 at 7:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

Who, exactly, are these people?


What did you want? A list of names?

If you have them, sure. And also a reasoning behind how you know what these folk believe as opposed to what they say. Or do you have anything other than random conjecture?
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#105 Feb 16 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

Who, exactly, are these people?


What did you want? A list of names?

If you have them, sure.


Yeah...

Quote:
And also a reasoning behind how you know what these folk believe as opposed to what they say. Or do you have anything other than random conjecture?


An understanding of human behavior? Let's think this through and test. What percentage of people earning say $40k today, if they were told that beginning next week their pay would increase to $80k would *then* argue that taxes on folks making $80k should be doubled? Yes. I'm asking you to speculate here. Or give us some 'not-so-random conjecture'.

It would be a low percentage, right? We all know this. It's human nature.


So when people make a big production of insisting that they'd be more than willing to pay a higher tax rate than the current level if they were making some higher amount of money, should we believe them? I get that this is a somewhat circular argument, but I just don't believe people when they say this. I believe it's far more likely that they don't see themselves ever making that higher amount of money, but want to raise taxes, don't want to pay them themselves, and realize that by saying that they'd be willing to pay that higher amount if their places were reversed, it will appear like their motives are less self centered.


Call me a skeptic, but I think their motives are self centered. Lots more people claim altruistic motives for doing things than actually act in an altruistic manner. Again, it's human nature. And before you say the words "Warren Buffet", it's easy to say you'd pay higher taxes when you have so much money that no amount of tax rate increase that wouldn't collapse the entire economy will ever affect your personal standard of living. Not to mention, his example is used as an argument for income and corporate tax rate increases, which he doesn't pay.


I'm a firm believer in the inherent selfishness of man. And while occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised by truly non-selfish behavior, it's rarely above the "I'll buy you lunch today" level, and at least as a predictor of human behavior, going with selfishness and self interest tends to win every time.
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#106 Feb 16 2012 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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You're trying to change the argument into one about selfishness instead of one about optimal management of the nation.
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#107 Feb 16 2012 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And before you say the words "Warren Buffet", it's easy to say you'd pay higher taxes when you have so much money that no amount of tax rate increase that wouldn't collapse the entire economy will ever affect your personal standard of living.

Good point. Since it wouldn't affect their standard of living, we should perhaps raise taxes on these people. We could perhaps determine what percentage they make of the US population and, for sake of clarity, round it to the nearest full integer.

I like the way you think, Gbaji!
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#108 Feb 16 2012 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

Who, exactly, are these people?


What did you want? A list of names?

If you have them, sure.


Yeah...

Quote:
And also a reasoning behind how you know what these folk believe as opposed to what they say. Or do you have anything other than random conjecture?


An understanding of human behavior? Let's think this through and test. What percentage of people earning say $40k today, if they were told that beginning next week their pay would increase to $80k would *then* argue that taxes on folks making $80k should be doubled? Yes. I'm asking you to speculate here. Or give us some 'not-so-random conjecture'.

It would be a low percentage, right? We all know this. It's human nature.

Wait, I'm confused. You're not talking about simply moving into a higher tax bracket? You're talking about increasing pay, and *also* increasing the new tax bracket?
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#109 Feb 16 2012 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And before you say the words "Warren Buffet", it's easy to say you'd pay higher taxes when you have so much money that no amount of tax rate increase that wouldn't collapse the entire economy will ever affect your personal standard of living.

Good point. Since it wouldn't affect their standard of living, we should perhaps raise taxes on these people. We could perhaps determine what percentage they make of the US population and, for sake of clarity, round it to the nearest full integer.

I like the way you think, Gbaji!


...Yes. This.

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#110 Feb 17 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You're trying to change the argument into one about selfishness instead of one about optimal management of the nation.


Since the entire thread topic has been about taxes, which is completely different that what we do with the tax money after we get it, I think that maybe you are trying to change the subject.
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#111 Feb 17 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And before you say the words "Warren Buffet", it's easy to say you'd pay higher taxes when you have so much money that no amount of tax rate increase that wouldn't collapse the entire economy will ever affect your personal standard of living.

Good point. Since it wouldn't affect their standard of living, we should perhaps raise taxes on these people.


It would not affect Warren Buffet's standard of living. Thus, he's not hurt by raising taxes on his earnings. However, it will affect all the things those tax dollars would otherwise have been invested in, and thus hurts the fortunes of many people, and the standards of living of those whom they might otherwise have employed.

See how the self interest bit comes in? He doesn't mind his taxes being raised because they don't hurt him. Those who would be hurt by his taxes being raised do mind. That's why his case does not disprove my argument. People tend to act on self interest. It's human nature. The trick is to configure what you're doing so that a group of people, all acting on their own self interest, creates a positive overall outcome, instead of a negative one.

Conservatives strive to build those positive outcome systems. Liberals build systems which require that human self interest not occur. But since it inevitably does, they have to keep regulating and mandating and restricting in order to force the square peg of their ideologically driven policies to fit into the round hole of the real world.

Edited, Feb 17th 2012 1:05pm by gbaji
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#112 Feb 17 2012 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh
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#113 Feb 17 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Default
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Well, that was a very clear and concise response there Joph. Oh wait. It's not. So you laugh when you don't have a response and hope no one notices and just joins you I guess? Or is this another defense mechanism to avoid really thinking about the policies of those you support politically?
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#114 Feb 17 2012 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, I laugh when the other guy did a good enough job of making my argument for me that I don't really need to try and counter it. No need for you to complain about it, Gbaji. Let your fine post stand on its own Smiley: smile
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#115 Feb 17 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Now you're just being delusional.
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#116 Feb 17 2012 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And before you say the words "Warren Buffet", it's easy to say you'd pay higher taxes when you have so much money that no amount of tax rate increase that wouldn't collapse the entire economy will ever affect your personal standard of living.

Good point. Since it wouldn't affect their standard of living, we should perhaps raise taxes on these people.


It would not affect Warren Buffet's standard of living. Thus, he's not hurt by raising taxes on his earnings. However, it will affect all the things those tax dollars would otherwise have been invested in, and thus hurts the fortunes of many people, and the standards of living of those whom they might otherwise have employed.

See how the self interest bit comes in? He doesn't mind his taxes being raised because they don't hurt him. Those who would be hurt by his taxes being raised do mind. That's why his case does not disprove my argument. People tend to act on self interest. It's human nature. The trick is to configure what you're doing so that a group of people, all acting on their own self interest, creates a positive overall outcome, instead of a negative one.

Conservatives strive to build those positive outcome systems.

Instead of most of his money staying in the private sector, more of his money would be invested in the public sector, employing people like soldiers, defence technology contractors, teachers, professors, construction workers, engineers, doctors, nurses, social workers, public transport drivers and engineers, and administrators for all those white and blue collar workers. Lots of people with employment and improved standards of living. And *gasp* increasing the fortunes of millions of Americans who would benefit from functional roads, transport, transport, education, healthcare and the added safety of a military defending them in the black, instead of the red.

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#117 Feb 17 2012 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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No, the gist is that a tax increase that will in no way affect his standard of living, will somehow devastate his investments to the point where he has to hoard whatever he has left in a bank.
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#118 Feb 21 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Instead of most of his money staying in the private sector, more of his money would be invested in the public sector, employing people like soldiers, defence technology contractors, teachers, professors, construction workers, engineers, doctors, nurses, social workers, public transport drivers and engineers, and administrators for all those white and blue collar workers. Lots of people with employment and improved standards of living. And *gasp* increasing the fortunes of millions of Americans who would benefit from functional roads, transport, transport, education, healthcare and the added safety of a military defending them in the black, instead of the red.


I know that it's another popular word that means one thing but which has been taken over by liberal politicians to use for something else entirely, but the word "investment" in an economic sense means that you get more out of what you put in back out than what you put in. When you don't get your money back, but get something else, that's called "buying". You don't "invest" in a new TV. You "buy" one. It's one of my pet peeves that proponents of big government spending have begun using this word to describe what they want.

The reason this matters is that from an economic standpoint, an investment increases the amount of money you have. Buying stuff doesn't. It consumes the money you have. It's the difference between making money and spending it. Something most people should understand innately and I should not have to explain like this. Buffets investments result in greater capital available down the line. Taxing that money and spending it results in less down the line.

It's just one of those interesting public vs private differences that always amazes me. In the private sector a job never costs anything. A job should produce more value than it consumes, resulting in a net positive. In the public sector jobs tend to produce less than they cost. That's why it is far far better to leave the money in the hands of the private market and let it create jobs naturally than to take that money and spend it in the public sector. We should only put money into the public sector if we need to spend it on something the private sector will not spend money on. But we should never think that "job creation" is a function that government does well. Not just for the sake of creating jobs that is.


Edited, Feb 21st 2012 3:07pm by gbaji
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#119 Feb 22 2012 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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I know that it's another popular word that means one thing but which has been taken over by liberal politicians to use for something else entirely, but the word "investment" in an economic sense means that you get more out of what you put in back out than what you put in.


Smiley: laughSmiley: lolSmiley: laugh

Right...because investing in a countries infrastructure has never increased economic gain for that country. Thanks for the smile before bed.

Quote:
It's just one of those interesting public vs private differences that always amazes me. In the private sector a job never costs anything. A job should produce more value than it consumes, resulting in a net positive. In the public sector jobs tend to produce less than they cost.


Also...Smiley: rolleyes of course, why should millions benefit from millions when one can make millions, it makes so much sense.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 4:11am by rdmcandie
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#120 Feb 22 2012 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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More likely one of them is weak and miserable and suffers through the others spot fucking because they don't have the esteem to leave. That's the dynamic in 99% of "successful" situations. Not my fault, intellectually there's no reason it shouldn't work. It almost never does, though.

Great. Stimulants make it easier for me to concentrate, too.

Look, I don't know anything about you, but it seems pretty obvious that you take GREAT comfort in labels. You should get over this. That you've been diagnosed with ADHD is the absolute least important thing I or anyone else will ever learn about you. It's probably one of the least important things you'll ever learn about yourself. It's a bullsh*t diagnosis in almost every case, an easy thing for a clinician to write down, medicate, and move on.

Again, not my fault. I didn't make it this way. If the meds help, great, take them. Just don't put much value in the label.

Good luck.


Good job spouting off a bunch of tired cliches, and proving you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about on either of these subjects.

The couple I mentioned, both of them have other partners. It's not just one person while the other just pretends it doesn't happen. In fact, all of the friends that I have who are poly, both primary partners either have additional partners or are actively looking for one. Your concept of what poly relationships are like is just a stereotype. Sure, there are relationships out there where one person doesn't actually want it to be open, but is doing it to make the other person happy. Those are the minority though.

Yeah, you don't know anything about ADHD, but that doesn't surprise me. A lot of people think it's a bs diagnosis. It isn't. It's caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, where two different chemicals (one is dopamine, I forget the other) have trouble traveling between the cerebral cortex and the thalamus. Is ADHD over-diagnosed? Absolutely. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, I really don't take great comfort in labels. Labels are useful to help explain things to people. They aren't who I am, they're just a small part.
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#121 Feb 22 2012 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
I know that it's another popular word that means one thing but which has been taken over by liberal politicians to use for something else entirely, but the word "investment" in an economic sense means that you get more out of what you put in back out than what you put in.


Smiley: laughSmiley: lolSmiley: laugh

Right...because investing in a countries infrastructure has never increased economic gain for that country. Thanks for the smile before bed.


You're changing the words. I didn't say that spending money on a country's infrastructure "never" results in economic increase. Obviously, when there's a need for that infrastructure, and the lack of said infrastructure is hindering economic growth, then spending is a good idea. The fallacy comes when you assume that since such spending *can* result in economic growth that it will *always* do so.

More to the point, if the motivation is to build necessary infrastructure, that's one thing. But when the motivation is to "create jobs", your odds of getting a positive economic return drop significantly.

Quote:
Quote:
It's just one of those interesting public vs private differences that always amazes me. In the private sector a job never costs anything. A job should produce more value than it consumes, resulting in a net positive. In the public sector jobs tend to produce less than they cost.


Also...Smiley: rolleyes of course, why should millions benefit from millions when one can make millions, it makes so much sense.


That's an odd interpretation of what I said. My point was that since the owner of a private business will always act in a way which maximizes profits, we can know that if he hires someone, it's because he believes that the value of the labor gained is equal to or greater (usually greater) than the cost to employ that person. Thus, the person gains a job, and the business gains profits. Thus, employment is "free" in the sense that it results in a positive total economic outcome for everyone involved. The entire economic pie is increased by such employment.

But when the government hires people, most of the time it costs more than the value of the labor. This is acceptable when the job being done is necessary in some way (something not directly tied to economic output). So, for example, we pay lots of money to maintain a military. That military does not generate economic benefits. However, the value of that spending is not economic, so that's ok. If you think about it, most of what the government does falls into this category. It performs a variety of services (hopefully) necessary to the functioning of the government itself.


So if one argues that we need more people employed at the DMV, or we need more people employed to fight in our military, or we need more people employed shuffling papers in Washington, or we need more people employed building roads and bridges, those are valid reasons to argue for increased employment in those areas. But anyone who tries to argue that we should create those jobs because it'll cause economic growth are either confused, or lying. Those jobs will not create economic growth. They will consume economic growth. I honestly can't figure out why some people refuse to accept this.


Again, this is not to say that no government job can ever result in positive economic growth. It is to say that on average, government employment does not, and if we're creating jobs purely for the purpose of employing people, we're missing the bigger economic picture. The guy not having a job is only half the economic effect of unemployment. The other half is the loss of the productive output that person would create if he were employed. It's that other half that actually increases the total size of our economy (ie: creates economic growth). If you stop and think about this, it should be obvious. We could end unemployment tomorrow by simply paying everyone to sit at home and do nothing. That would solve their own personal economic problems, right? But would this cause the economy to grow, or shrink?

Edited, Feb 22nd 2012 4:20pm by gbaji
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#122 Feb 22 2012 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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The fallacy comes when you assume that since such spending *can* result in economic growth that it will *always* do so.


This fallacy also works in your paradigm of investing funds. I can rattle of a list of failed companies that received private investment too, generally these companies effect much more than just the people investing too.

Case in point the collapse of the Banking system in the US caused massive foreclosures, bankruptcies, massive layoffs, which resulted in an seemingly unending spiral of job loss, and the worst economic downturn since the 30's.

This was entirely the fault of the investment practices of the banking sector, and those who preformed those acts. (investment bankers, and private investors).

I would love for you to provide an example of a government (public funded) investment (or as you call it spending) that has resulted in any where close to the same type of catastrophic collapse that private investment has caused recently, and numerous times in the past.

The government has the power to provide benefits directly to investment opportunities, it is why the tech boom was so great in the late 90's early 00's, the major governments around the world provided large benefits to people exploring these new areas, and as such employment in these fields sky rocketed.

It is why Clinton had an unemployment rate of under 5% and a surplus at the end of his term. Bush decided that regulation should be dropped on these companies, and then we had the nortells, and enrons and subsequently the 2008 sh*tstorm.

Government investment will always be more stable, because the government can manipulate markets when ever it needs to adjust the balance.

(holy sh*t I just gbaji'd all over the place.)

Edited, Feb 23rd 2012 12:21am by rdmcandie
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#123 Feb 23 2012 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
The fallacy comes when you assume that since such spending *can* result in economic growth that it will *always* do so.


This fallacy also works in your paradigm of investing funds. I can rattle of a list of failed companies that received private investment too, generally these companies effect much more than just the people investing too.


Yes. Key point being "failed companies". What I'm trying to get you to see is that when the private market invests poorly, it fails. Companies which invest well, succeed. When a private employer hires someone and that person produces more value for him than it costs to hire him, the business succeeds. When he hires someone who costs him more than he's getting, the business fails (or has to lay off workers).

The private market provides a mechanism by which we can determine if what we're doing is creating more economic value than it costs, or not. While we can (and sometimes do) step in to adjust those outcomes, we always at least know when something isn't working. The public sector has no such mechanism. There is no immediate way to tell if we're overpaying the guy working the counter at the DMV, or if subsidies for "green energy" are costing us more than the benefits of the result.

That's why the idea of "investing" by spending more money with the government is questionable at best. In the private market, you know if your investment fails. In the public arena, it's much harder to tell. And frankly, since the government doesn't have to earn its money by producing greater value than it consumes, it can always cover for its failures by consuming more from the taxpayers. This results in even worse economic outcomes as we take from those parts which are successful (by definition, since we tax profits) and spend it on things which are almost certainly not.

Quote:
Case in point the collapse of the Banking system in the US caused massive foreclosures, bankruptcies, massive layoffs, which resulted in an seemingly unending spiral of job loss, and the worst economic downturn since the 30's.

This was entirely the fault of the investment practices of the banking sector, and those who preformed those acts. (investment bankers, and private investors).


I think at least a little fault has to lie with the government programs in place which created those investments, set up the loan requirements, funneled them through the GSE's ***** and freddie, then covered up the problems with those loans when questions started to be raised. Absent government intervention, the private market would *never* have created mortgage backed securities, and certainly would not have used the sort of bundling system that the government created, and absolutely would not have pushed ever more sub prime customers into the mix.


Want to know why? Because the private market is profit driven. The government is not. The problem arises when the government manipulates the market (like it did here) to make it social agenda appear to be profitable in the short term. That's when you get big collapses like we saw with the financial markets.

Quote:
I would love for you to provide an example of a government (public funded) investment (or as you call it spending) that has resulted in any where close to the same type of catastrophic collapse that private investment has caused recently, and numerous times in the past.


Um... The stimulus bills. Specifically Obama's recovery act? That has done massively greater harm to our economic outlook than the economic downturn which was used as the excuse to pass it in the first place. He certainly used the "investment" label many times in relation to that spending. It was a monumental waste of money, which has slowed economic recovery IMO.


So there's your example. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, we could also talk about the "investment" in housing by the government as a core cause of the initial financial meltdown in the first place.

Quote:
The government has the power to provide benefits directly to investment opportunities, it is why the tech boom was so great in the late 90's early 00's, the major governments around the world provided large benefits to people exploring these new areas, and as such employment in these fields sky rocketed.


Huh? Government providing seed grants for R&D is one thing, but direct investment? There was very very little of that during that time period, and it had very very little to do with the tech boom. Do you think that the US government was behind the rise of Microsoft, home computers, or the internet? It helped by creating an environment in which those things could happen (more directly in the case of the internet of course), but the explosion happened when government got the **** out of the way.

Quote:
It is why Clinton had an unemployment rate of under 5% and a surplus at the end of his term. Bush decided that regulation should be dropped on these companies, and then we had the nortells, and enrons and subsequently the 2008 sh*tstorm.


Um... That's not remotely what happened. Clinton's economy did benefit from the tech boom of the late 90s, but that had nearly nothing to do with Clinton era policies. It did create a bit of a bubble though, but that's a slightly different subject. Certainly, there was no guiding hand of the government leading all of that.

Quote:
Government investment will always be more stable, because the government can manipulate markets when ever it needs to adjust the balance.


This is what the Keynesian economic theorists tell themselves (and anyone else who'll listen). And while many of their theories do accurately predict outcomes, they don't actually allow for the sort of proactive control that the advocates try to claim. The problem is that those theories are based on "natural" market forces. The second you start using the government to manipulate things, those predictions stop working.


It's why the Obama administration predicted that summer 2010 would be the "summer of recovery", but it wasn't. They were looking at very consistent stable data sets which said that 2 years from the delta point on the unemployment line during an economic bubble crash, the unemployment numbers will turn around and recovery will be realized. His economic team could easily look at the factors in the economy and make that prediction. The problem is that they assumed this would happen *because* of their interaction, and didn't realize that their interaction (like the before mentioned stimulus bills) actually affected the economic reality and changed the result.

It's why we're still sitting nearly 2 years later waiting for recovery to happen. They use predictions which assume that you don't mess with the economy to justify messing with the economy, and then stand around confused when things don't work out the way they thought they would. Meanwhile, us silly uneducated conservatives tell them that it wont work, then when it doesn't work, we remind them that we told them it wouldn't work. Yet somehow we get ignored in all of this. Cause it's the liberals who know what they're doing, right?


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#124 Feb 23 2012 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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You don't think the economy is recovering?
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#125 Feb 23 2012 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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Ill make this easy for you Gbaji.

Me: Private Investment was responsible for the 2008 GLOBAL Economic Meltdown.

Gbaji: Um... The stimulus bills. Specifically Obama's recovery act? That has done massively greater harm to our economic outlook than the economic downturn which was used as the excuse to pass it in the first place

GDP

I want you too look very closely at 2007 - 2011. See those bars below 0%, that is a GDP decline, see the bars that are above 0% That is a GDP growth.

unemployment

Again look closely at
DEC of 2007(5% 7.64M)
Dec of 2008 (7.3% 11.29M),
Dec of 2009 (9.9% 15.4M)
Dec of 2010 (9.4% 14.93M),
Dec of 2011 (8.3% 13.9M)

What this tells us is that the 2008 crisis caused by private investment mismanagement, cost the US GDP a 1% positive increase, and turned it into at its peak a 5% reduction, it also cost the jobs sector (which you claim is propped up by investment) nearly 8 million jobs at its peak.

The stimulus package, while increasing the debt of the nation, has provided at its current levels a 4% increase to GDP nearly rebounding to DEC 2007 levels. Since 2009 1.5 Million jobs have been created.

But I can see how you would misunderstand a 4% gain to GDP, and a 1.6% reduction to unemployment is on par with a 5% reduction to GDP, and a 4.9% increase to unemployment.

Want to take another swing?


Edited, Feb 24th 2012 12:03am by rdmcandie
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#126 Feb 24 2012 at 12:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Everyone's Oiran
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I'm sure he will.

After all, apparently private business doesn't benefit and grow from a civil environment where the owners and workers can feel fairly secure in their physical safety and their rights as property owners being protected. And they don't benefit and prosper from better (faster and more reliable) transportation moving their goods, services and personnel around. And they don't do better with a more highly educated workforce and management. Or a more well workforce and management, where productivity isn't lost to so may sick days. And apparently productivity doesn't take a big hit from losing a worker with corporate knowledge pertaining to an individual business and its processes, to chronic illness, forcing the business to take in a new person with however many prior qualifications and experience, but who has to be trained to the unique processes, systems and knowledge bank of that particular corporation/small business.
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