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#77 Feb 12 2012 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
I'll bet gbaji will be really ****** to hear about my tax refund too. I made a whole whopping $340 last year in work income, and came out about $100 ahead with my scholarship and grant money compared to the tuition I paid. I'm getting $25 back from the feds, and I didn't even have any taxes taken out! Yay for free money! Smiley: grin
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#78 Feb 13 2012 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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#79 Feb 13 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I'll bet gbaji will be really ****** to hear about my tax refund too. I made a whole whopping $340 last year in work income, and came out about $100 ahead with my scholarship and grant money compared to the tuition I paid. I'm getting $25 back from the feds, and I didn't even have any taxes taken out! Yay for free money! Smiley: grin


Don't cry to me when you have to pay back your student loans then! You darn hippy! Smiley: tongue


On a side note, I think I finally got the last of the tax documents I need last week. So I'm going to think about doing them this week (or maybe over the weekend). Hopefully, I'll get a good chunk back, but given the amount the federal government felt the need to take out of my hide this year, I **** well better be able to talk them into giving some of that back. Smiley: motz


What I'm interested in is for folks who've done their taxes, or as they complete them this year to do some very basic math on them. Take the starting income (Box number 1 on the W2, plus any interest, dividend, or capital gains earnings) and then divide the actual tax owed at the end by that starting number. I think it would be interesting to see what percentage of actual taxes people pay. The real number. Not what bracket they're in, but how much they actually end out paying after they file their taxes relative to the income they started out with (before deductions, credits, etc). I'd be interested to see how many people here actually pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet.
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#80 Feb 13 2012 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
Read what I posted again... I said scholarship and grant money. Y'know, that stuff I don't have to pay back? I actually am going to be doing rather well (at least compared to most people) once I graduate, in terms of student loans. Helps being a student over 25, since my parents income isn't counted against me. I still won't be doing as well as I should, but that's because I should have graduated in 2010. It's just lovely be diagnosed with ADHD as an adult... would have been nice if I had known I had it years ago, then I might have been able to graduate on time, because I would have already had the tools to deal with inattentive issues. Smiley: glare
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#81 Feb 14 2012 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
It's just lovely be diagnosed with ADHD as an adult... would have been nice if I had known I had it years ago, then I might have been able to graduate on time, because I would have already had the tools to deal with inattentive issues. Smiley: glare


I think we just found the root of your polyamory. Smiley: grin
#82 Feb 15 2012 at 1:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Well that's a new one, lol. I'm polyamorous because I'm ADHD? I'll have to tell all my poly friends who aren't ADHD about that. Smiley: wink2
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#83 Feb 15 2012 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Well that's a new one, lol. I'm polyamorous because I'm ADHD? I'll have to tell all my poly friends who aren't ADHD about that. Smiley: wink2
It makes sense, really. You're just all "oooh look, shiny!" only then with boyfriends instead of shinies.
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#84 Feb 15 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
I do like shinies... whether it be metal shinies or massage oil covered shinies... Both are awesome!
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#85 Feb 15 2012 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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I am set to get back just under 5K (yippie). Thanks to my massive tuition credits (still have about 20K after this years taxes). I am planing a trip to somewhere cheap, how is Hawaii this time of year?
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#86 Feb 15 2012 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm polyamorous because I'm ADHD?


I'd go with "too young to know better" on both as most likely. Likely you don't have ADD, likely being polyamorous doesn't work for you very long.

Are you sure you aren't just lazy and easily lead?
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#87 Feb 16 2012 at 3:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I am planing a trip to somewhere cheap, how is Hawaii this time of year?


Not particularly cheap. But as far as the weather goes, it's been nice. Warm. But it can rain at a moments notice.
#88 Feb 16 2012 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
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I'm polyamorous because I'm ADHD?


I'd go with "too young to know better" on both as most likely. Likely you don't have ADD, likely being polyamorous doesn't work for you very long.

Are you sure you aren't just lazy and easily lead?


Good lord, you're almost as patronizing as gbaji and Alma. As I said in the poly family thread, I know a couple who have been together for over 40 years and have been poly that entire time. They're in their sixties, are they still "too young to know better?"

I'm pretty **** sure I have ADHD. Yes, it's a relatively new diagnosis. I've done a lot of research though, both online and in a few different books, and I have nearly all the symptoms of ADHD and have had them as long as I can remember. Also, I'm pretty sure if I didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't be able to take my meds without getting wired for hours upon hours. They don't give me much of an energy boost at all, they make it easier for me to concentrate and make responsible decisions.
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#89 Feb 16 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Good lord, you're almost as patronizing as gbaji and Alma. As I said in the poly family thread, I know a couple who have been together for over 40 years and have been poly that entire time. They're in their sixties, are they still "too young to know better?"


More likely one of them is weak and miserable and suffers through the others spot fucking because they don't have the esteem to leave. That's the dynamic in 99% of "successful" situations. Not my fault, intellectually there's no reason it shouldn't work. It almost never does, though.


I'm pretty **** sure I have ADHD. Yes, it's a relatively new diagnosis. I've done a lot of research though, both online and in a few different books, and I have nearly all the symptoms of ADHD and have had them as long as I can remember. Also, I'm pretty sure if I didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't be able to take my meds without getting wired for hours upon hours. They don't give me much of an energy boost at all, they make it easier for me to concentrate and make responsible decisions.


Great. Stimulants make it easier for me to concentrate, too.

Look, I don't know anything about you, but it seems pretty obvious that you take GREAT comfort in labels. You should get over this. That you've been diagnosed with ADHD is the absolute least important thing I or anyone else will ever learn about you. It's probably one of the least important things you'll ever learn about yourself. It's a ******** diagnosis in almost every case, an easy thing for a clinician to write down, medicate, and move on.

Again, not my fault. I didn't make it this way. If the meds help, great, take them. Just don't put much value in the label.

Good luck.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#90 Feb 16 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Are you sure you aren't just lazy and easily lead?


If this were all it took, I'd be the poly-est person around.
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#91 Feb 16 2012 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Read what I posted again... I said scholarship and grant money. Y'know, that stuff I don't have to pay back? I actually am going to be doing rather well (at least compared to most people) once I graduate, in terms of student loans. Helps being a student over 25, since my parents income isn't counted against me. I still won't be doing as well as I should, but that's because I should have graduated in 2010. It's just lovely be diagnosed with ADHD as an adult... would have been nice if I had known I had it years ago, then I might have been able to graduate on time, because I would have already had the tools to deal with inattentive issues. Smiley: glare
I just wish that instead of being pumped full of Ritalin since elementary school, there had been a focus on learning to work with my ADD instead of just relying on drugs to function.
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#92 Feb 16 2012 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with gbaji's argument is that people who are only making 40K a year would happily and willingly pay a lot more taxes on their income if they were making 80K a year.

People making 20K a year would happy, gladly, and willingly pay any taxes at all if their income was actually 40K a year.
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#93 Feb 16 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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I was waiting to get coffee today, and the guy in front of me was ******** about OWS. Usual things--don't want to work, lazy, etc. None of which is fair... considering these are people who largely do want to work but can't find jobs, which is why they are ****** off.

He then went on to say "And they all have laptops! Know who made those? Not us! That's these kids' problem; they don't want to work!"

Right. Because WORKERS are the reason why industry moved abroad. Smiley: rolleyes
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#94 Feb 16 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's these kids' problem; they don't want to work 12 hour days for a dollar an hour in 100F and like it both ways uphill!

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#95 Feb 16 2012 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
The problem with gbaji's argument is that people who are only making 40K a year would happily and willingly pay a lot more taxes on their income if they were making 80K a year.

People making 20K a year would happy, gladly, and willingly pay any taxes at all if their income was actually 40K a year.


I don't know about happily and willingly, maybe begrudgingly. I personally have no issue paying taxes, I understand that it is the same as paying my electrical bill, or a mortgage. We have to pay the countries bills. Unfortunately there are a few folks out there who look for anyway they can to pass the buck on to someone else.

As for me not using any of the programs I pay into, doesn't bother me at all, I could get hit by a car and become a veggie at any time, there are an unlimited amount of things that could happen to me that reduce my ability to function as I currently do. I pay into these programs knowing that at some point I could be using them, and if I get hit by a car, I will collect my "free" health care, and my government living assistance, just like others who are unfortunate enough to be in that position currently.

Only free loaders in my country (and the US) are the ones who look for loopholes to get out of paying their fair share of the bill.


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#96 Feb 16 2012 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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My point is that if paying more taxes was the only condition for a substantial pay raise, people would jump all over it.

"We're going to double your salary. This will take you beyond the EIC level, and due to the increased taxes it will not actually double your take home pay check. However, you'll go from about $1200 a month in take home pay, to about $2000 in take home pay."

"So wait, I'll lose an extra $400 a month to more taxes? That's four thousand dollars more in a year!

"You'll also lose other tax benefits at tax time. But in exchange, you'll get getting $800 more each month and you won't have to do anything you aren't already doing."

Sane response: "I'll take it."

Grover Norquist Reponse: "I'll take less money rather than pay another penny in taxes!"

The conservative dream, that everyone makes more money and therefore the tax revenue issue will eventually take care of itself, is actually at odds with the conservative argument that the poorest people aren't paying enough in taxes. If they were able to make more money, of course they'd be paying more in taxes. But as long as the high wage jobs are bleeding overseas or getting replaced by robots, the lowest wage earners will never make enough to pay more in taxes. That's why I'm for punitive taxation for corporations who aren't doing their best to keep jobs in America. You want to ship your furniture factory to China because they'll make a dresser for twenty bucks plus the cost of parts, whereas in the US we ask for $200? Okay fine, you do that, but we're adding a 25% tax on top of each piece you sell to make up for the lost wages you're costing America.

Shoes had such a tariff for the last century. $5 a pair for every pair of shoes imported to America. Unfortunately, the tariff rate didn't actually increase with inflation, and in the last fifty years it still became cheaper to outsource shoes to Indonesia. (This is why Made in America walmart shoes are the only ones that can be sold for like three bucks.)
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#97 Feb 16 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Default
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First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

More on that here:

catwho wrote:
My point is that if paying more taxes was the only condition for a substantial pay raise, people would jump all over it.

"We're going to double your salary. This will take you beyond the EIC level, and due to the increased taxes it will not actually double your take home pay check. However, you'll go from about $1200 a month in take home pay, to about $2000 in take home pay."

"So wait, I'll lose an extra $400 a month to more taxes? That's four thousand dollars more in a year!

"You'll also lose other tax benefits at tax time. But in exchange, you'll get getting $800 more each month and you won't have to do anything you aren't already doing."

Sane response: "I'll take it."

Grover Norquist Reponse: "I'll take less money rather than pay another penny in taxes!"


False Dilemma. Earning more money is never directly contingent on paying higher taxes. Your boss will never walk up to you and offer you that deal. Your pay is based on the value of your labor to your employer (subject to labor competition of course). So the real dilemma isn't between earning $40k and paying X% taxes or earning $80k and paying 2X% taxes. The dilemma is between earning $80k and paying X% in taxes, or earning $80k and paying 2X% taxes.

And in that choice everyone would rather pay less, right?


Quote:
The conservative dream, that everyone makes more money and therefore the tax revenue issue will eventually take care of itself, is actually at odds with the conservative argument that the poorest people aren't paying enough in taxes.


I think you're missing the motivation involved though. Conservatives don't want poor people to pay higher taxes for the sake of hurting the poor, or because we think that's a better way to collect more tax revenue. Conservatives want the government to limit itself in terms of what it does (small government). One tool to accomplish this is to limit the funds it has to work with. Conservatives recognize that if too many people are not taking part in paying the taxes that provide those funds, then it becomes harder to get people to vote to support lower taxes in total.

We don't want to "raise taxes on the poor". We want to ensure that everyone in society pays taxes so that they'll be less likely to allow them to be raised over time. In the long run, this results in lower taxes across the board. Ironically, the policies which are sold to the poor (and lets face it we're talking more about working and lower middle class income ranges here too) actually result in them suffering more negatives over time as they end out working against their own interests in the long run.


To put it back in the terms you used earlier: If you present someone with an immediate choice between paying more or paying less, they'll choose paying less every time. The difference is that conservatives want to use that truism to reduce the burden of government on the people, while liberals want to increase that burden. While today you'll happily accept lower tax rates which result in you paying no taxes, and you'll happily accept increased benefits from the government, sometime "tomorrow" you'll pay for that in decreased job opportunities, decreased potential pay over your lifetime, and eventually increased taxes on yourself or your children anyway when "the rich" is no longer a large enough segment of the population to pay for all the things the government has promised to the people.

But when that happens, possibly even taking a few generations, it'll be too late for those at that time to go back in time and undo those decisions. That's why it's important for us to be responsible now and work to avoid that situation down the line.


Quote:
If they were able to make more money, of course they'd be paying more in taxes. But as long as the high wage jobs are bleeding overseas or getting replaced by robots, the lowest wage earners will never make enough to pay more in taxes. That's why I'm for punitive taxation for corporations who aren't doing their best to keep jobs in America. You want to ship your furniture factory to China because they'll make a dresser for twenty bucks plus the cost of parts, whereas in the US we ask for $200? Okay fine, you do that, but we're adding a 25% tax on top of each piece you sell to make up for the lost wages you're costing America.


Do you understand that this not only does not work and will not work but it is the exact reason why those companies offshore their operations in the first place (well, one of the major contributing factors anyway). What do you think happens when you do that? The company will simply move all of its business offshore instead of just a factory or three. Then you lose all the tax revenue.


What you're talking about is one of those ideas that sounds really great at first glance, but if you think through, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Quote:
Shoes had such a tariff for the last century. $5 a pair for every pair of shoes imported to America. Unfortunately, the tariff rate didn't actually increase with inflation, and in the last fifty years it still became cheaper to outsource shoes to Indonesia. (This is why Made in America walmart shoes are the only ones that can be sold for like three bucks.)



Um... Tariffs like that don't have anything to do with tax revenue though. I think that's the problem here. You're conflating two (several?) completely different issues into one. The first question is how much we should spend at the federal level. The next question is how much taxes we should raise to pay for that spending. Then we ask how we should collect those taxes so that they least harm the economy.

Liberals seem to want to do that backwards. They start with ideas of who should pay the most first. Then they fight to raise taxes on those they feel should pay more and lower them on those they feel should pay less. Then they adjust the exact resulting rates based on how much money they want to collect. Then they go out and spend the money they collected. It's a bad approach since there is no break in the system.
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#98 Feb 16 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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[quote=gbaji]First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.
************ that! I don't want people making twice what I make paying higher taxes. I expect to be there soon.
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#99 Feb 16 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
First off, let me point out that most of the people who say they'd gladly pay higher taxes if they made twice as much money are really saying they want those people who make twice as much as they do to pay higher taxes. If they were actually making that much, they wouldn't say that. They'd still say that people making twice as much of them should pay a higher tax burden though. That's the consistency here, not that people are willing to trade one for the other.

Who, exactly, are these people?
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#100 Feb 16 2012 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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#101 Feb 16 2012 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Only one way to find out. Someone double my salary!

Wait...didn't you just do that?
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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