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#102 Feb 08 2012 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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But if you're not a "performer", by all means go ahead and let your body rot by the time you're forty.
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#103 Feb 08 2012 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
But if you're not a "performer", by all means go ahead and let your body rot by the time you're forty.


Because there's nothing between "rotten" and "performer" Smiley: rolleyes
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#104 Feb 08 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Because it makes you look like a spastic, helmet-wearing glue-eatewr?


I was actually going for "what is physical changes?"


Did you miss Madonna at the Superbowl? She's 53.



Because every 53 year old can do that? .. There's a reason why she's called a performer. That's kind of what she trains for.
If everyone continued ddring as they grew older, they'd be able to continue to ddr right into their graves.

DDR was just a silly example. Admit it.

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#105 Feb 08 2012 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Because it makes you look like a spastic, helmet-wearing glue-eatewr?


I was actually going for "what is physical changes?"


Did you miss Madonna at the Superbowl? She's 53.



Because every 53 year old can do that? .. There's a reason why she's called a performer. That's kind of what she trains for.
If everyone continued ddring as they grew older, they'd be able to continue to ddr right into their graves.


Myself, I'm going to DDT right into my grave.
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#106 Feb 08 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tombstone Piledriver would be more appropriate for a funeral.
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#107 Feb 08 2012 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Tombstone Piledriver would be more appropriate for a funeral.


No, I was just going to inhale pesticides.
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#108 Feb 08 2012 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Because it makes you look like a spastic, helmet-wearing glue-eatewr?


I was actually going for "what is physical changes?"


Did you miss Madonna at the Superbowl? She's 53.



Because every 53 year old can do that? .. There's a reason why she's called a performer. That's kind of what she trains for.
If everyone continued ddring as they grew older, they'd be able to continue to ddr right into their graves.

DDR was just a silly example. Admit it.



That doesn't make sense. You can't say video games in general, then say "DDR" in specific is stupid.

And no, that isn't stupid, because unlike a performer who primarily performs, unless you're a professional DDR player, people do other stuff outside of that which can cause injury. You know, like physical training? Besides, I've been doing physical therapy (now mostly self muscle development for my legs) for over a year now.. something that I didn't need years ago. Before, I could play with no problems. Now, I occasionally hurt. I am able to play more now because of my training, but not as much as I would like. Hence why I said what I said.

You're a silly person, just admit it.
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#109 Feb 08 2012 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Debalic wrote:
But if you're not a "performer", by all means go ahead and let your body rot by the time you're forty.


Because there's nothing between "rotten" and "performer" Smiley: rolleyes

Dude, if you can't DDR at that age, there's something seriously wrong with you.
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#110 Feb 08 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alma can be trolled about anything.
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#111 Feb 08 2012 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
But back then, there weren't any decks that pretty much guaranteed a kill within 4 turns and none that were capable of killing on the first turn.


Sure. But that's more a problem with poorly thought out expansions than with those older cards being over powered. They also added a **** of a lot more methods to gain fast mana with later expansions too.


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Without banning or limiting cards, every deck in a T1 tournament would be capable of killing on the first turn which would mean that everyone would be forced to play blue for a set of Force Of Will's just so you can stop that because that's still about the only counter you can use without having any cards in play and lets face it, everyone being forced to play blue cards @#%^s up creativity quite a bit.


Except that was never the case. While you could build decks "capable of killing on the first turn" the odds of those decks *actually* being able to do that were incredibly small. So while it was annoying to the occasional player who got nailed when such a combo came out, it rarely actually ensured that the guy playing the deck won the tourney. Not even close in fact. Those decks were usually an all-or-nothing affair. If they didn't kill (or significantly harm) the other player on the first turn or two, they usually got overwhelmed by more balanced deck designs.

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Back when they were made the P9 weren't as strong because while they made the game/your deck a lot faster, decks weren't that fast yet. By now decks are so much faster that these cards in full sets would just result in too many turn 1 kills where one player doesn't get to do anything.


See earlier response.

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The fact that you still seem to think of Serra's Angel as a powerful card shows just how awfully outdated your knowledge is.


*cough* I don't think it's that powerful. I was responding to someone else who listed that as a powerful card. I don't think I *ever* played a tourney deck with a Serra Angel in it. In fact, I'm quite certain that I didn't.



Really? That's a pretty crappy deck IMO. I played with the "draw a hand" button a few times. Let's see the results:

1. Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Demonic Tutor, Triskelion, Mana Crypt. Next three cards: Thirst for Knowledge, Barbarian Ring, Goblin Welder.

Wow. That's... crappy as hell. I can play a land that gives me one colorless mana. And I can play my mana crypt. But I'd better use that and then destroy it before my next upkeep or I risk losing three life. I have demonic tutor, which is nice, but no black mana. So I guess I can use the mana crypt to put the sphere out, then tap my one land to destroy the mana crypt. And my next three cards are useless (no blue mana), one more red mana land (which costs me a life to use), and then finally on turn 4 I get my first creature! Yay. I'm screwed, right?

Let's hope my next draw is better:

2. City of Brass, Stripmine, Crucible of Worlds, Sundering Titan, Mishra's Workshop, Tanglewire, Sphere of Resistance. Next three: Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Balance.


Hmm... This is a bit better. Still can't really do much on turn one though. I suppose I can drop the workshop down, then get three mana and cast either Sphere, or Tanglewire, or Crucible, none of which really help me a whole lot in my grand scheme of "fast win". I can slow down the other guy a tiny bit, I guess. But that's about it. Three cards coming up aren't so great either. Plowshares requires white mana, which I can only get at a cost of a life to myself. And my only creature is a big honking one that I don't have nearly enough mana to cast any time soon. I see no method to improve my fortunes either.

Yeah. I'm screwed on this one too. Hell. The average 10 year old's deck will beat this one so far. But maybe we just haven't seen the brilliance that is this deck at work yet?

3. Tinker, Mishra's Workshop, Goblin Welder, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Smokestack, Mox Saphire. Next three: Tanglewire, Wasteland, Mox Pearl.

Yay! Finally got one of those "unbeatable" cards. Only took me two humiliating losses in the Tourney to get. And I got the Workshop as well. So I've got one blue and three colorless to work with. That's great! I'll cast tinker and grab an artifact of my choice from my library. The obvious choice would be to get that lotus right now. Problem is that give me four more mana to use, all colorless. I'd really like to get a source of red mana, so I can use that goblin and then re-use my lotus over and over for tons of mana, but I don't have one. But I'll count on getting one "soon" and grab the lotus. I suppose I'll use the mana to toss out the smokestack and mess with my opponent. And I've messed up my card order, so let's redraw to see what the next three will be now: Balance, Gemstone Mine, and Tanglewire.

Ok. I got lucky. So on turn 3, I'll be able to get a source of red mana and can start doing some damage. Of course, the problem is that I don't yet really have any creatures of note, nor any direct means to do damage to the other guy.


I thought you said this was a fast deck? This looks like it's designed to destroy the other guys lands and whatnot, while allowing you to recover yours. It's a slow grind deck. And frankly, it's not that great. I mean, it's a neat concept, but hardly what I'd call "fast". And frankly, it's far from the best use of lotus and moxen that I've seen. it relies on specific cards coming out to really shine. And out of three draws, the first two were basically going to be losses. The third was finally pretty decent and could probably win. Assuming the other guy doesn't really do anything at all. If he's got a means to wipe out my little goblins and can control the creatures on the board, I'm basically still screwed.

Edited, Feb 8th 2012 3:08pm by gbaji
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#112 Feb 08 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
And as far as creativity goes, try figuring out how this deck wins.


It's a denial deck designed to maximize the ability to control what cards are coming up in the library and exchange cards you have for cards you want. It wins by winning the creature battle and then amplifying the power of those creatures so as to overwhelm an opponent. I've run into similar decks before. Obviously, not with those exact cards, but the basic strategy isn't new by any means. It does have some innovative means for controlling (and significantly increasing) card flow. I'm not sure I'd have gone with the same land choice in that deck, but I'm sure the person who's played it a bunch would know better.

Edited, Feb 8th 2012 3:39pm by gbaji
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#113Almalieque, Posted: Feb 08 2012 at 5:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You must be new here? You can't troll me. I'll respond regardless if you're being true or not, depending on what is said. The level ignorance and stupidity that you say from trolling is equal to the level of ignorance and stupidity in your regular posts. So, it doesn't make sense to try to differentiate the two.
#114 Feb 08 2012 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
You can't troll me. I'll respond regardless if you're being true or not, depending on what is said.
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#115 Feb 08 2012 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, I remember when Alma first started posting, he didn't understand what trolling was then either.
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#116 Feb 08 2012 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
Debalic wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Debalic wrote:
But if you're not a "performer", by all means go ahead and let your body rot by the time you're forty.


Because there's nothing between "rotten" and "performer" Smiley: rolleyes

Dude, if you can't DDR at that age, there's something seriously wrong with you then you couldn't possibly ever function in combat, and should resign your commission now. Yes, Im aware he's Signals, but every soldier is an infantryman first, amirite?




ALSO: M:tG. I was taught the basics a few years ago and was given several decks to make a single deck out of. I went all Black and slaughtered three opponents in a row. Never played again.




DDR and M:tG? I thought this thread was about cool stuff.
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#117 Feb 09 2012 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
But back then, there weren't any decks that pretty much guaranteed a kill within 4 turns and none that were capable of killing on the first turn.
Sure. But that's more a problem with poorly thought out expansions than with those older cards being over powered. They also added a **** of a lot more methods to gain fast mana with later expansions too.
Yet none of the quick mana gains have been anywhere near as powerful as those first few and since those first couple of sets they've created many more ways to win a game than throw creatures into play and pound opponent. The game has gotten more varied and interesting over time but the side effect is that the P9 have become too powerful. So yes, it is that those cards are over powered.


Quote:
I thought you said this was a fast deck? This looks like it's designed to destroy the other guys lands and whatnot, while allowing you to recover yours. It's a slow grind deck. And frankly, it's not that great. I mean, it's a neat concept, but hardly what I'd call "fast". And frankly, it's far from the best use of lotus and moxen that I've seen. it relies on specific cards coming out to really shine. And out of three draws, the first two were basically going to be losses. The third was finally pretty decent and could probably win. Assuming the other guy doesn't really do anything at all. If he's got a means to wipe out my little goblins and can control the creatures on the board, I'm basically still screwed.
It's a control deck and this is a fast deck, not because it kills quick but because it completely locks down an opponent from the start, sure it may take a while to actually win but if your opponent can't do anything that's barely relevant. It's also the winner of a Vintage championship tournament with another version of the deck placing 5th-8th so it's by no means a bad deck.

What I said was that if Moxen etc weren't limited, there'd be so much more mana so much more reliable that you could build combo decks that you could get a first turn Tendrils of Agony with storm 10 or Painter's Servant + Grindstone (hilarious way of winning btw) too reliably because of the abundance of mana plus loads of tutors and tinkers.

Reply to your hand draws in spoilers to not WALLOFTEXT people too much.
gbaji wrote:
1. Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Demonic Tutor, Triskelion, Mana Crypt. Next three cards: Thirst for Knowledge, Barbarian Ring, Goblin Welder.

Wow. That's... crappy as hell. I can play a land that gives me one colorless mana. And I can play my mana crypt. But I'd better use that and then destroy it before my next upkeep or I risk losing three life. I have demonic tutor, which is nice, but no black mana. So I guess I can use the mana crypt to put the sphere out, then tap my one land to destroy the mana crypt. And my next three cards are useless (no blue mana), one more red mana land (which costs me a life to use), and then finally on turn 4 I get my first creature! Yay. I'm screwed, right?
Oh look, wasteland and Mana crypt, I can play Sphere of Resistance and my opponent is likely to lose whatever land he puts into play, or has put in to play depending on who started. He can't play moxes or other free sources of mana anymore either since they're no longer free. The fact that I may take some damage is largely irrelevant since my opponent is unlikely to get much of anything done.

Btw: You can't destroy mana crypt with Wasteland, wasteland can only destroy nonbasic lands, not artifacts. (and there are next to no basic lands in any vintage deck)

Quote:
Let's hope my next draw is better:

2. City of Brass, Stripmine, Crucible of Worlds, Sundering Titan, Mishra's Workshop, Tanglewire, Sphere of Resistance. Next three: Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Balance.


Hmm... This is a bit better. Still can't really do much on turn one though. I suppose I can drop the workshop down, then get three mana and cast either Sphere, or Tanglewire, or Crucible, none of which really help me a whole lot in my grand scheme of "fast win". I can slow down the other guy a tiny bit, I guess. But that's about it. Three cards coming up aren't so great either. Plowshares requires white mana, which I can only get at a cost of a life to myself. And my only creature is a big honking one that I don't have nearly enough mana to cast any time soon. I see no method to improve my fortunes either.

Yeah. I'm screwed on this one too. Hell. The average 10 year old's deck will beat this one so far. But maybe we just haven't seen the brilliance that is this deck at work yet?
Turn 1: Workshop > Sphere. Turn 2: Strip mine and crucible, proceed to burn down lands and get smokestack into play to keep the field empty, if necessary throw more counters on smokestack to reset the playing field.

The 10 year old's deck you mentioned? It hasn't been capable of putting anything in game yet and it's not likely to ever get there.

Quote:
3. Tinker, Mishra's Workshop, Goblin Welder, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Smokestack, Mox Saphire. Next three: Tanglewire, Wasteland, Mox Pearl.

Yay! Finally got one of those "unbeatable" cards. Only took me two humiliating losses in the Tourney to get. And I got the Workshop as well. So I've got one blue and three colorless to work with. That's great! I'll cast tinker and grab an artifact of my choice from my library. The obvious choice would be to get that lotus right now. Problem is that give me four more mana to use, all colorless. I'd really like to get a source of red mana, so I can use that goblin and then re-use my lotus over and over for tons of mana, but I don't have one. But I'll count on getting one "soon" and grab the lotus. I suppose I'll use the mana to toss out the smokestack and mess with my opponent. And I've messed up my card order, so let's redraw to see what the next three will be now: Balance, Gemstone Mine, and Tanglewire.

Ok. I got lucky. So on turn 3, I'll be able to get a source of red mana and can start doing some damage. Of course, the problem is that I don't yet really have any creatures of note, nor any direct means to do damage to the other guy.
Another turn 1 Sphere and a turn 2 smokestack. Maybe tinker for Crucible after that so I can keep my opponent manaless with my wastelands.

Soooo, how was this weak again? And I'm not a great player so I've probably made some mistakes in how I'd play the deck.
You simply place too much importance on creatures and losing some life.


gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
And as far as creativity goes, try figuring out how this deck wins.


It's a denial deck designed to maximize the ability to control what cards are coming up in the library and exchange cards you have for cards you want. It wins by winning the creature battle and then amplifying the power of those creatures so as to overwhelm an opponent. I've run into similar decks before. Obviously, not with those exact cards, but the basic strategy isn't new by any means. It does have some innovative means for controlling (and significantly increasing) card flow. I'm not sure I'd have gone with the same land choice in that deck, but I'm sure the person who's played it a bunch would know better.
Control through stuff like Counterbalance+Divining Top, mostly to protect your combo. Use Survival of the **** to turn Volrath's shapeshifter into a flowstone Hellion, use Hellion's ability a bunch of times, attack, turn it into a Dreadnaught and kill with a 23/1 trample and it only costs 2 green, 2 blue and 1 colorless mana as well, assuming you have a survival in play, which is what all the card drawing is for.
Tarmogoyfs are cheap, destructive creatures as a backup plan.

It's pretty goofy and too vulnerable to be a solid tournament winner but it's a lot of fun to play. And while goofy combos aren't new, it's a rather innovative combo, an actual denial deck would be Stax, which you just called crap.

Edited, Feb 9th 2012 2:21pm by Aethien
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#118 Feb 09 2012 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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DDR and M:tG? I thought this thread was about cool stuff.

This.
#119 Feb 09 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Hey I mentioned The Avengers cartoon, not childish things like DDR and Magic. I'm an adult!
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#120 Feb 09 2012 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry. I love analyzing mtg decks. :)

His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
1. Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Demonic Tutor, Triskelion, Mana Crypt. Next three cards: Thirst for Knowledge, Barbarian Ring, Goblin Welder.

Wow. That's... crappy as hell.


Oh look, wasteland and Mana crypt, I can play Sphere of Resistance and my opponent is likely to lose whatever land he puts into play, or has put in to play depending on who started.


And I lose my land too. So a tradeoff really.

Quote:
He can't play moxes or other free sources of mana anymore either since they're no longer free.


And neither can I as long as Sphere is out. And since this draw didn't start with any, I'm at a disadvantage.

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The fact that I may take some damage is largely irrelevant since my opponent is unlikely to get much of anything done.


And neither am I. It's great that I can deny him some land and fast mana. But I'm taking a point and a half of damage each turn while doing this. And I can only deny him 4 non-basic lands. Heaven forbid someone just plays a deck that doesn't use the same strategy he's using and just has a bunch of basic lands and well designed balance set of cards. This deck won because it played against the common strategies that were in play at tourneys that year. It's waaaay to specialized IMO.

I'm pretty sure a couple decks I came up with 15 years ago could wipe the floor with that deck 80% of the time.

Quote:
Btw: You can't destroy mana crypt with Wasteland, wasteland can only destroy nonbasic lands, not artifacts. (and there are next to no basic lands in any vintage deck)


Yeah. I realized that, but late enough that I didn't feel like changing it. Makes things worse though, since I have no means for some time to get rid of mana crypt. It's clear that the design of this deck is to allow you to put out artifacts on your turn, **** the other guy with them, then dump them into the graveyard and pull them back out later when needed. But that takes some time to develop. It's a neat idea, I just don't see it working against more than a subset of deck designs.

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Quote:
Let's hope my next draw is better:

2. City of Brass, Stripmine, Crucible of Worlds, Sundering Titan, Mishra's Workshop, Tanglewire, Sphere of Resistance. Next three: Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Balance.


Hmm... This is a bit better. Still can't really do much on turn one though. I suppose I can drop the workshop down, then get three mana and cast either Sphere, or Tanglewire, or Crucible, none of which really help me a whole lot in my grand scheme of "fast win". I can slow down the other guy a tiny bit, I guess.


Turn 1: Workshop > Sphere. Turn 2: Strip mine and crucible, proceed to burn down lands and get smokestack into play to keep the field empty, if necessary throw more counters on smokestack to reset the playing field.


A true fast deck will prevent this though. And a denial deck will prevent it. The problem is that all the stuff you use to destroy the other guys stuff affects you just as much (unless you've gotten the right combo later to prevent it).

Quote:
The 10 year old's deck you mentioned? It hasn't been capable of putting anything in game yet and it's not likely to ever get there.


It's a tourney deck designed to play against tourney strategies. The 10 year old wont know he's supposed to stack the deck with nonbasic lands and take advantage of library/graveyard card displacement. Instead, he's going to ignore your wastelands (cause he isn't affected by them), then sit there slowly building up his land and creatures because he doesn't know that's not how you win in a tourney (notice everything in this deck is about destroying artifacts and non-basic lands?). And he'll beat the snot out of this deck because he doesn't know how his tourney deck *should* be built.

It's ironic as hell. That deck could possibly even lose to a random starter deck. Maybe.

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3. Tinker, Mishra's Workshop, Goblin Welder, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Smokestack, Mox Saphire. Next three: Tanglewire, Wasteland, Mox Pearl.

Yay! Finally got one of those "unbeatable" cards. Only took me two humiliating losses in the Tourney to get. And I got the Workshop as well. So I've got one blue and three colorless to work with. That's great! I'll cast tinker and grab an artifact of my choice from my library. The obvious choice would be to get that lotus right now. Problem is that give me four more mana to use, all colorless. I'd really like to get a source of red mana, so I can use that goblin and then re-use my lotus over and over for tons of mana, but I don't have one. But I'll count on getting one "soon" and grab the lotus. I suppose I'll use the mana to toss out the smokestack and mess with my opponent. And I've messed up my card order, so let's redraw to see what the next three will be now: Balance, Gemstone Mine, and Tanglewire.


Another turn 1 Sphere and a turn 2 smokestack. Maybe tinker for Crucible after that so I can keep my opponent manaless with my wastelands.


Which wont affect decks that aren't playing with the same assumptions this deck is built based on.


Quote:
You simply place too much importance on creatures and losing some life.


/shrug

Seriously. A basic green deck with nothing but forests and creatures would wipe this deck out so fast your head would spin. The only way this deck wins is if stripmine comes up early enough to stop the pain. And on average the game would be over before that happens. Yes, he's got a couple methods to pull cards out of the library, but those aren't high probability either.


To be fair, it's not really a "crappy" deck. I was exaggerating. But it's hardly a fantastic example of the use of moxen and black lotus. Those really aren't part of the strategy of this deck at all. More like stuff tossed in because that's what everyone tosses into their decks.


EDIT: Oh. Should probably get to the main point. What makes this deck powerful isn't the old mana cards like moxen or the lotus. It's cards introduced later which didn't consider the full ramifications of the abilities. Crucible of Worlds is vastly powerful when you have lands which can be sacrificed for some extra powerful effect. The goblins allow something similar (less powerful and more vulnerable though) for artifacts. You could remove the lotus and all the mox and the deck would work just as well (hell, might work better).

Edited, Feb 9th 2012 3:38pm by gbaji
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