His Excellency Aethien wrote:
But back then, there weren't any decks that pretty much guaranteed a kill within 4 turns and none that were capable of killing on the first turn.
Sure. But that's more a problem with poorly thought out expansions than with those older cards being over powered. They also added a hell of a lot more methods to gain fast mana with later expansions too.
Without banning or limiting cards, every deck in a T1 tournament would be capable of killing on the first turn which would mean that everyone would be forced to play blue for a set of Force Of Will's just so you can stop that because that's still about the only counter you can use without having any cards in play and lets face it, everyone being forced to play blue cards @#%^s up creativity quite a bit.
Except that was never the case. While you could build decks "capable of killing on the first turn" the odds of those decks *actually* being able to do that were incredibly small. So while it was annoying to the occasional player who got nailed when such a combo came out, it rarely actually ensured that the guy playing the deck won the tourney. Not even close in fact. Those decks were usually an all-or-nothing affair. If they didn't kill (or significantly harm) the other player on the first turn or two, they usually got overwhelmed by more balanced deck designs.
Back when they were made the P9
weren't as strong because while they made the game/your deck a lot faster, decks weren't that fast yet. By now decks are so much faster that these cards in full sets would just result in too many turn 1 kills where one player doesn't get to do anything.
See earlier response.
The fact that you still seem to think of Serra's Angel as a powerful card shows just how awfully outdated your knowledge is.
*cough* I don't think it's that powerful. I was responding to someone else who listed that as a powerful card. I don't think I *ever* played a tourney deck with a Serra Angel in it. In fact, I'm quite certain that I didn't.
Really? That's a pretty crappy deck IMO. I played with the "draw a hand" button a few times. Let's see the results:
1. Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Demonic Tutor, Triskelion, Mana Crypt. Next three cards: Thirst for Knowledge, Barbarian Ring, Goblin Welder.
Wow. That's... crappy as hell. I can play a land that gives me one colorless mana. And I can play my mana crypt. But I'd better use that and then destroy it before my next upkeep or I risk losing three life. I have demonic tutor, which is nice, but no black mana
. So I guess I can use the mana crypt to put the sphere out, then tap my one land to destroy the mana crypt. And my next three cards are useless (no blue mana), one more red mana land (which costs me a life to use), and then finally
on turn 4 I get my first creature! Yay. I'm screwed, right?
Let's hope my next draw is better:
2. City of Brass, Stripmine, Crucible of Worlds, Sundering Titan, Mishra's Workshop, Tanglewire, Sphere of Resistance. Next three: Swords to Plowshares, Smokestack, Balance.
Hmm... This is a bit better. Still can't really do much on turn one though. I suppose I can drop the workshop down, then get three mana and cast either Sphere, or Tanglewire, or Crucible, none of which really help me a whole lot in my grand scheme of "fast win". I can slow down the other guy a tiny bit, I guess. But that's about it. Three cards coming up aren't so great either. Plowshares requires white mana, which I can only get at a cost of a life to myself. And my only creature is a big honking one that I don't have nearly enough mana to cast any time soon. I see no method to improve my fortunes either.
Yeah. I'm screwed on this one too. Hell. The average 10 year old's deck will beat this one so far. But maybe we just haven't seen the brilliance that is this deck at work yet?
3. Tinker, Mishra's Workshop, Goblin Welder, Sphere of Resistance, Wasteland, Smokestack, Mox Saphire. Next three: Tanglewire, Wasteland, Mox Pearl.
Yay! Finally got one of those "unbeatable" cards. Only took me two humiliating losses in the Tourney to get. And I got the Workshop as well. So I've got one blue and three colorless to work with. That's great! I'll cast tinker and grab an artifact of my choice from my library. The obvious choice would be to get that lotus right now. Problem is that give me four more mana to use, all colorless. I'd really like to get a source of red mana, so I can use that goblin and then re-use my lotus over and over for tons of mana, but I don't have one. But I'll count on getting one "soon" and grab the lotus. I suppose I'll use the mana to toss out the smokestack and mess with my opponent. And I've messed up my card order, so let's redraw to see what the next three will be now: Balance, Gemstone Mine, and Tanglewire.
Ok. I got lucky. So on turn 3, I'll be able to get a source of red mana and can start doing some damage. Of course, the problem is that I don't yet really have any creatures of note, nor any direct means to do damage to the other guy.
I thought you said this was a fast deck? This looks like it's designed to destroy the other guys lands and whatnot, while allowing you to recover yours. It's a slow grind deck. And frankly, it's not that great. I mean, it's a neat concept, but hardly what I'd call "fast". And frankly, it's far from the best use of lotus and moxen that I've seen. it relies on specific cards coming out to really shine. And out of three draws, the first two were basically going to be losses. The third was finally pretty decent and could probably win. Assuming the other guy doesn't really do anything at all. If he's got a means to wipe out my little goblins and can control the creatures on the board, I'm basically still screwed. Edited, Feb 8th 2012 3:08pm by gbaji