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#102 Jan 23 2012 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If you didn't have your head up your ***, maybe you'd stop to consider if wheeled modes of transportation were actually something that would be a step forward for American civilizations.

Let's see, you have the Aztec peoples. They lived in a land covered in jungle interspersed with rivers and lakes. Wheels, not so useful actually. Just maintaining the massive network of roads they had was already a huge task, and they were designed for passage on foot.

Then again, they were also mostly paved. And Europe had yet to even seriously start paving roads in cities.

Then we have the Maya, who lived in an area also covered in dense forest. Accept they also have to deal with mountains.

Again, not a great place to rely on the wheel.

They had CERTAINLY created the wheel. They did not use it for transport. Not because that was outside their realm of possibilities, but because it would have been a stupid thing to do. Boats were, in nearly every situation, vastly superior for transportation in a South/Central American context.


What's your point? Why they didn't use wheels as a tool doesn't matter. The fact that they didn't, does. It means that they didn't develop a whole set of tools which derive from the wheel (pulleys and screws specifically). Without those, their technological development was pretty much stagnant (ie: they didn't get that "step ahead"). Add in no metallurgical development (which theoretically could appear without wheels, but didn't in this case), and they were amazingly primitive relative to pretty much the entire rest of the world at that time.


I don't really care about the reasons why. It's like you're trying to come up with excuses for this. I'm not placing blame here. I'm just stating a fact.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 6:33pm by gbaji
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#103 Jan 23 2012 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Wrong. When we speak of "inventing the wheel" it's always in the context of [...] "wheel and axle".

So you're wrong again.

No biggie. Should be used to it. But, yeah, whine some more about that "revisionist history" that just made you look stupid, Professor Smiley: schooled

Need to keep playing "No True Scotsman" over what's a wheel? The hilarious thing is that, while you go on about "revisionist history", you can't just say "Yeah, they had invented the wheel but they didn't utilize it for A, B or C." No, you're so hung up on the "they were practically cavemen!" schtick that anything threatening it makes you start hollering about "revisionist history". Apparently the academic world stopped learning about ancient cultures about the time you were in 5th grade and anything since then is just making sure everyone gets an award Smiley: laugh

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 8:51pm by Jophiel
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#104 Jan 23 2012 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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What a strange thread. How are poly families and aztec wheels related again?

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 8:58pm by Xsarus
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#105 Jan 23 2012 at 9:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What a strange thread. How are poly families and aztec wheels related again?




Wheels have many mommies and daddies, apparently.

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#106 Jan 23 2012 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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[:Place 18 wheeler reference here:]
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#107 Jan 23 2012 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Man, you are even stupider than usual today. [you=gbaji, since other people posted and that wasn't clear.]

And no, gbaji. You are completely wrong. In 1519, Cortes fought off another Spanish conquerer who was sent by the governor of Cuba to stop him. This man had brought with him an African slave who had been suffering from smallpox, and one of Cortes' men was infected with the disease. This is all documented fact.

From here, they returned to Tenochtitlan where they had been staying as guests while Cortes tried to get a hearing with the king. The uprising against them did not start for many months after that. The disease, however, was ravaging the city--estimates of how much of its population were killed by it range from 25-50%. But many of their leaders fell to it, creating a serious power vacuum and infrastructure problem.

During this time, Cortes had retreated heavily from the Aztecs (only possible because they had become of relatively little interest in the face of the epidemic). But even the engagements they still had with the Aztecs cost them, as their guerilla style had been greatly effective against the Spanish.

However, Cortes managed to gain the aid of many local tribes. What people just LOVE to forget when talking about Cortes' attack on the city is that, while they had only 700 spanish soldiers, they had TENS OF THOUSANDS of men from non-Aztec tribes who supported them.

And accounts of the attack tell us that, as the Spanish moved through the city, they were sick from the stench of all the bodies already in the streets, dead from Smallpox.

But, please, feel free like you have any clue what you are talking about.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 10:29pm by idiggory
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#108 Jan 23 2012 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
[:Place 18 wheeler reference here:]

Relevant.
#109 Jan 23 2012 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If you didn't have your head up your ***, maybe you'd stop to consider if wheeled modes of transportation were actually something that would be a step forward for American civilizations.

Let's see, you have the Aztec peoples. They lived in a land covered in jungle interspersed with rivers and lakes. Wheels, not so useful actually. Just maintaining the massive network of roads they had was already a huge task, and they were designed for passage on foot.

Then again, they were also mostly paved. And Europe had yet to even seriously start paving roads in cities.

Then we have the Maya, who lived in an area also covered in dense forest. Accept they also have to deal with mountains.

Again, not a great place to rely on the wheel.

They had CERTAINLY created the wheel. They did not use it for transport. Not because that was outside their realm of possibilities, but because it would have been a stupid thing to do. Boats were, in nearly every situation, vastly superior for transportation in a South/Central American context.


What's your point? Why they didn't use wheels as a tool doesn't matter. The fact that they didn't, does. It means that they didn't develop a whole set of tools which derive from the wheel (pulleys and screws specifically). Without those, their technological development was pretty much stagnant (ie: they didn't get that "step ahead"). Add in no metallurgical development (which theoretically could appear without wheels, but didn't in this case), and they were amazingly primitive relative to pretty much the entire rest of the world at that time.


I don't really care about the reasons why. It's like you're trying to come up with excuses for this. I'm not placing blame here. I'm just stating a fact.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 6:33pm by gbaji


If your argument is really going to be "Who cares if it wasn't useful--the fact that they didn't use it shows that they weren't advanced" then I don't think there's any helping you, really.
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#110 Jan 23 2012 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Don't believe me? Quote from that page:
Quote:
When we saw so many cities and villages built in the water and other great towns on dry land we were amazed and said that it was like the enchantments (...) on account of the great towers and cues and buildings rising from the water, and all built of masonry. And some of our soldiers even asked whether the things that we saw were not a dream? (...) I do not know how to describe it, seeing things as we did that had never been heard of or seen before, not even dreamed about.


And yeah, it's super amazing that Cortes could conquer them.


Apparently it was. Given that they had such massive cities and advanced culture and civilization. You'd think a few hundred foreigners wouldn't topple a great civilization so easily, wouldn't you? And while we can certainly put a large helping of blame on smallpox for the Incas fall (took longer before the Spanish even showed up there and the disease had spread before then), the Aztecs were more or less dismantled before the disease took its tool.

So yeah. Amazing.


Except it wasn't just Cortés and his Spaniards. They were, numerically, a small part of a larger force. Pretty much since Cortés landed in Central America, he was recruiting natives with a bone to pick against the Aztecs, including neighboring, powerful tribes.

The Spaniards numbered in the hundreds, while their allies numbered in the thousands. It was disease and Cortés's superior political maneuvering that did the trick, not a lead in technology. It helped, sure, but there was a point where the Spaniards were even chased out of Tenochtitlan by the masses when the eventually decided they had had enough of their concessionary leader.

Edit: Digg beat me to it by a long shot. I was off researching.Smiley: bah

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 10:21pm by IDrownFish
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#111 Jan 23 2012 at 9:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What a strange thread. How are poly families and aztec wheels related again?

I find ancient Aztecs more interesting than whatever pile of ***** Pigtails is sleeping under.

Also, Bam!
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#112 Jan 23 2012 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, Montezuma was just a pretty shitty leader. He decided that the Spaniards were sent from the gods and just gave up. If every time a civilization got a poor leader, it was in "decline", the US would have been collectively squatting in a mud puddle c.2001 AD.
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#113 Jan 23 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Also, Montezuma was just a pretty shitty leader. He decided that the Spaniards were sent from the gods and just gave up.


When the Spaniards were trying to force Christianity on the Aztecs, he even tried to compromise. He suggested they put the Christian stuff on one side of the temple, and the old Aztec worship stuff on the other.

He was awesome. Smiley: laugh
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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#114 Jan 23 2012 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Also, Montezuma was just a pretty shitty leader. He decided that the Spaniards were sent from the gods and just gave up. If every time a civilization got a poor leader, it was in "decline", the US would have been collectively squatting in a mud puddle c.2001 AD.


Didn't they show up on the day a messiah was expected to return from across the sea, or some ****? Or did I dream that?

What? Doesn't everyone dream about ancient myths?

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#115 Jan 23 2012 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
What a strange thread. How are poly families and aztec wheels related again?

I find ancient Aztecs more interesting than whatever pile of ***** Pigtails is sleeping under.

Also, Bam!
Headshot!
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#116 Jan 23 2012 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Postin's a good job, mate.
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#117 Jan 23 2012 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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You know what's a good song? Cortez the Killer. Just the solo, though. Once Neil starts singing that idiotic noble savage drivel I skip on past.

Also, I don't know what this thread is about.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2012 11:30pm by Eske
#118 Jan 23 2012 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Also, Montezuma was just a pretty shitty leader. He decided that the Spaniards were sent from the gods and just gave up. If every time a civilization got a poor leader, it was in "decline", the US would have been collectively squatting in a mud puddle c.2001 AD.


Didn't they show up on the day a messiah was expected to return from across the sea, or some sh*t? Or did I dream that?

What? Doesn't everyone dream about ancient myths?



No, but allegedly ~10 years before the arrival of the Spanish, the Aztecs had a bunch of "omens," including fire on the water not smoke or some such stuff.
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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#119 Jan 23 2012 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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#120 Jan 23 2012 at 11:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Me: The Japanese didn't invent the robot dog. It's just a toy.

My partner the programmer: No-body invented the wheel. They discovered it.

Me: How Platonic of you.
#121 Jan 23 2012 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Are people riding on the robot dog??? I DON'T THINK SO!
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#122 Jan 24 2012 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
What a strange thread. How are poly families and aztec wheels related again?

I find ancient Aztecs more interesting than whatever pile of ***** Pigtails is sleeping under.

Also, Bam!


Heh, I can't exactly say I blame you for that. I'm not all that interested in most random people's on the internet sex lives either. Except Aeth's of course, 'cause his is interesting.
#123 Jan 24 2012 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Are people riding on the robot dog??? I DON'T THINK SO!


You can ride the Alpha dog.
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#124 Jan 24 2012 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Are people riding on the robot dog??? I DON'T THINK SO!


You can ride the Alpha dog.


Why does that thing creep me out so much?
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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#125 Jan 24 2012 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
IDrownFish wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Are people riding on the robot dog??? I DON'T THINK SO!


You can ride the Alpha dog.


Why does that thing creep me out so much?


It used to be so much worse.
#126 Jan 24 2012 at 4:39 AM Rating: Good
So I read page one and page three. I have a very fun idea in my head of what happened on page two and I shall live in my wonderful disillusion!
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