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#1 Jan 16 2012 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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http://www.canada.com/news/Conceal+baby+Asian+abortion+trend+CMAJ+editorial/6003046/story.html

An editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal is calling for doctors performing prenatal ultrasounds to conceal the sex of the baby for the first 30 weeks, to curb a trend toward "female feticide" in the Asian community.

While reaction to the idea of withholding such information from parents has been mixed, there appears to be broad agreement that the practice of female feticide should be eliminated.

"Female feticide happens in India and China by the millions, but it also happens in North America in numbers large enough to distort the male-to-female ratio in some ethnic groups," said the editorial by interim editor-in-chief Dr. Rajendra Kale.

"A woman has the right to medical information about herself . . . (but) the sex of the fetus is medically irrelevant information — except when managing rare sex-linked illnesses — and does not affect care," the editorial reads. "The solution is to postpone the disclosure of medically irrelevant information to women until after about 30 weeks of pregnancy."

Dr. Nahid Azad, president of the Federation of Medical Women of Canada, said if the problem is widespread the blanket policy is an effective way to combat feticide, but she added the Canadian Medical Association should undertake a study to determine where the practice is most prevalent in Canada.

"I cannot see only one organization or one specific policy would be able to tackle that," she said. "If it's widespread, if it's a growing problem, then we do need to have some kind of blanket type policy for everyone. If there are pockets (where it happens), and there are particularly some provinces this is being practised, or there is good documentation or understanding . . . then that requires a much higher level of scrutiny."

Dr. Shelly Ross, an obstetrician and international liaison for the FMWC, said it is not likely the policy would have any effect on the practice of feticide.

"The rules, at least in B.C., are that we don't tell them for 20 weeks," Ross said. "But I find that in this modern day and age, if we say, 'No, we're not going to tell you,' (the patients) will go out to the private (doctor) and find out themselves."

Ross stressed the organization is wholly against feticide, but she doesn't feel extending the current time frame for keeping the gender secret would make any difference.

The editorial cited China, India, Vietnam, the Philippines and Korea as sources of immigrants who practise female feticide.

In an interview, Kale said 30 weeks was picked as an approximate time to start providing mothers information on their fetus's sex because, after that point, it would be difficult for anyone to get an abortion without a good medical reason for doing so.

"No (physician) in Canada would really do an unquestioned abortion after 30 weeks," he said, noting that there is a significant chance of having a live birth at that point.

The editorial notes that evidence points to the practice of gender-related abortion happening in Canada, including a 2009 study by the National Bureau of Economic Research that shows a higher-than-normal probability of Asian immigrants here having sons in subsequent births if their first child was a girl.

"It's a small problem in Canada compared to India and China, for sure, but it's localized to certain ethnic groups (in Canada)," said Kale, who was born and raised in India.

The editorial highlights a recent U.S. study involving a small sample of 65 women of Indian descent. Forty per cent of these women at some point had aborted a female fetus, while 89 per cent of those who knew they were pregnant with a girl were seeking an abortion.

Gwendolyn Landolt, national vice-president of the pro-life group REAL Women Canada, said she is fully in favour of the proposal.

"To prohibit that is certainly a move in the right direction, so people won't know the gender and won't destroy the child because of its gender," Landolt said.

"(The parents) don't have a right to know. The purpose of the ultrasound is to determine the state of health of the child and try to correct some problem in utero. It doesn't mean that because you have an ultrasound that you have a right to know."

But Joyce Arthur, executive director of the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada, said the policy would unnecessarily keep information from parents who might have a valid need for it.

"Imposing on a doctor what you can and cannot tell a patient really interferes with medical discretion," Arthur said. "Every situation is different and the doctor needs to be able to judge or talk to the patient honestly and openly."

This discretion also could include, she said, a doctor deciding not to tell the patient the sex of their child.

Asked if he expected his editorial to attract a negative reaction from pro-choice and women's rights advocates, Kale replied that female feticide is "the worst form of discrimination against women. . . . They're saying (to women), 'we don't want you,' and that's extreme."

The Canadian Medical Association notes that editorial viewpoints are not necessarily those of the association.





Now I am pro-choice, but when I am confronted with the issue of female feticide, I find it a very challenging issue. While I support a woman's right to autonomy over her body and her life, the idea of aborting a fetus simply because it is a girl, really bothers me.

Is that hypocritical?

PS (same goes for aborting simply because the fetus is a boy. That would also bother me. The issue here is not feeling like it matters what the gender of the child is, and being disturbed by the obsession with the gender of the child.


Edited, Jan 16th 2012 6:08pm by Olorinus
#2 Jan 16 2012 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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Very.
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#3 Jan 16 2012 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Just give them to the Japanese, their population is in decline and no one outside of Asia will be able to tell the difference anyway. Smiley: grin
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#4 Jan 16 2012 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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in fifty years China will be a sausage factory. Can't imagine living in a country with a four to one dude to chick ratio.
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#5 Jan 16 2012 at 8:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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It doesn't bother me that sex is a criterion for abortion. What does bother me is that women are so undervalued that this would be an issue.

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#6 Jan 16 2012 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Tacosid wrote:
in fifty years China will be a sausage factory. Can't imagine living in a country with a four to one dude to chick ratio.

See? China of all countries is handling runaway population growth!
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#7 Jan 16 2012 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Tacosid wrote:
in fifty years China will be a sausage factory. Can't imagine living in a country with a four to one dude to chick ratio.

See? China of all countries is handling runaway population growth!


Well...yeah. That was the plan, forty or so years ago when the "one child per family" decree was issued. Back then it wasn't obvious that the means of insuring that one child would be a son would become available.

Of course, even before abortion was widely available girl babies were abandoned or killed in disproportionate numbers so the parents could try again for that all-important son.


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#8 Jan 16 2012 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
It doesn't bother me that sex is a criterion for abortion. What does bother me is that women are so undervalued that this would be an issue.


Right, exactly. What's abhorrent here is the thought process behind the decision, not the autonomy that allows it to be made.
#9 Jan 16 2012 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
It doesn't bother me that sex is a criterion for abortion. What does bother me is that women are so undervalued that this would be an issue.



Smiley: nod

Samira, I love your mind.
#10 Jan 16 2012 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
It doesn't bother me that sex is a criterion for abortion. What does bother me is that women are so undervalued that this would be an issue.



Thanks for articulating a way out of the paradox I was feeling
#11 Jan 17 2012 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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As a walking ***** I have no input. When I have the ability to bare children I'll respond.
#12 Jan 17 2012 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Peimei wrote:
As a walking ***** I have no input. When I have the ability to bare children I'll respond.

Catholic priests are way ahead of you there
#13 Jan 17 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Could you just bare with us here Sweetums? Nixnot would, though just bearly.

Edited, Jan 17th 2012 9:43am by Allegory
#14 Jan 17 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Could you just bare with us here Sweetums? Nixnot would, though just bearly.
But he wouldn't bare a shower, huh?
#15 Jan 17 2012 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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#16 Jan 17 2012 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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#17 Jan 17 2012 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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2nd Amendment, baby.
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#18 Jan 17 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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#19 Jan 17 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Samira wrote:
It doesn't bother me that sex is a criterion for abortion. What does bother me is that women are so undervalued that this would be an issue.


Right, exactly. What's abhorrent here is the thought process behind the decision, not the autonomy that allows it to be made.


I'm more bothered by the very idea that there's a debate over whether parents should or should not have a "right" to know the sex of the fetus. Well, maybe not "more" bothered, but "also" bothered. And no one else brought it up.
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#20 Jan 17 2012 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's because it's Canada and we're communists. We like to let the government decide what's best for us.
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#21 Jan 17 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
I'm more bothered by the very idea that there's a debate over whether parents should or should not have a "right" to know the sex of the fetus. Well, maybe not "more" bothered, but "also" bothered. And no one else brought it up.


Yeah, that is scary. I didn't see that it was even an issue.
#22 Jan 17 2012 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm more bothered by the very idea that there's a debate over whether parents should or should not have a "right" to know the sex of the fetus. Well, maybe not "more" bothered, but "also" bothered. And no one else brought it up.


Yeah, that is scary. I didn't see that it was even an issue.


I did, but understood it was predicated on the "greater need" principle.

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#23 Jan 17 2012 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Belkira wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm more bothered by the very idea that there's a debate over whether parents should or should not have a "right" to know the sex of the fetus. Well, maybe not "more" bothered, but "also" bothered. And no one else brought it up.


Yeah, that is scary. I didn't see that it was even an issue.


I did, but understood it was predicated on the "greater need" principle.



What greater need? Isn't it strange to argue that the choice to abort is a right but not if you choose to abort for reasons we don't like? I'm also curious how someone who opposes the idea of requiring women seeking abortions to have an ultrasound to "see" what they're aborting can support the idea that doctors should be required to withhold the sex of the child from the woman as a means of preventing her from aborting based on that criteria. So it's ok to abort for any reason at all *except* because you'd rather have a specific sex child? But since we can't know why a woman's aborting, we'll have the state withhold that information from her?


Dunno. I just see something wrong about the whole thing. If you support a woman's right to abort, then you should support her right to make that decision for any damn reason she wants to make it. The idea of keeping her ignorant of facts about the child in order to influence her decision seems counter to the principle of freedom of choice. I suppose it's what happens when your application of rights is ends based instead of principle based.
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#24 Jan 17 2012 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Isn't it strange to argue that the choice to abort is a right but not if you choose to abort for reasons we don't like?


Yes; did I not argue the same thing in my first post?

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#25 Jan 17 2012 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it strange to argue that the choice to abort is a right but not if you choose to abort for reasons we don't like?


Yes; did I not argue the same thing in my first post?


I thought you were going more with the angle that it bothers you that anyone would choose to abort based on the sex of the fetus in the first place. I'm saying that if we've decided that the choice to abort really is a right, then we shouldn't care what criteria is used to make the choice. To me, that's like saying that you're free to choose to eat anything you want, but only if you make that choice based on nutrition and not flavor. That's not really freedom, is it?

Or (more cynically): We support the right to do something, but only if you're doing it in a way and for reasons which align with some other larger social objective. Which was kinda my point when I spoke of defining rights based on ends rather than principles. If rights are about the principle (in this case that a woman has the power to choose to abort and no one else), then we shouldn't care if women choose to abort because of the sex of the fetus. If the right is about an end (supporting "womens rights(tm)" for example), then suddenly you're torn between the right of the women to abort, and the problem of too many female fetuses being aborted weakening the future position of the cause (reducing the size of the voting block, to be sure).

Which leads us to the bizarre contradiction of a system which totally supports the right of the woman to abort having to lie to those women in order to prevent them from aborting when the system doesn't want them to. I suppose this is where I inject my patented "slippery slope of big government" argument, but whatever.

Edited, Jan 17th 2012 7:02pm by gbaji
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#26 Jan 17 2012 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not going to matter much longer, since as has been stated, they're painting themselves into a corner now anyway. All boys = no babies to carry on that ever-important name. I can't believe they've been so short-sighted.
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