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Ethanol Subsidies EndingFollow

#1 Jan 03 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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The US will no longer be paying energy companies money for purchasing ethanol made from corn grains.

USA Today wrote:
It's because Congress declined to renew the 30-year-old federal subsidy for ethanol, letting it expire Sunday.

Ethanol, denatured grain alcohol used as a proven smog-cutting ingredient, currently makes up 10% of most gasoline-based motor fuel for general use, so-called E-10. In a few areas, E-85 fuel, 85% ethanol, also is available. E-85 can be burned only by vehicles equipped for "flex fuel."
How much the end of the subsidy could add to gas prices, and how soon, is yet to be seen. Ethanol blenders got a 45-cents-a-gallon tax credit, which amounts to 4.5 cents for the amount blended into each gallon of E-10 fuel.
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#2 Jan 03 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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What is this gonna mean for Monsanto/Big Corn?
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#3 Jan 03 2012 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Republicans raised my gas prices!

Debalic wrote:
What is this gonna mean for Monsanto/Big Corn?

Heh.. there was a news story last night on... ummm... one of those 20/20 type news shows about how land prices in Iowa were skyrocketing due to farming being so profitable, driven largely by ethanol.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2012 2:54pm by Jophiel
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#4 Jan 03 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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This makes way for Okra based ethanol research.
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#5 Jan 03 2012 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Republicans raised my gas prices!

Debalic wrote:
What is this gonna mean for Monsanto/Big Corn?

Heh.. there was a news story last night on... ummm... one of those 20/20 type news shows about how land prices in Iowa were skyrocketing due to farming being so profitable, driven largely by ethanol.

Great, now we have *another* bubble that's about to pop.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#6 Jan 03 2012 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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paying people to burn corn while kids starve... is somewhat problematic, I think
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#7 Jan 03 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
paying people to burn corn while kids cats starve... is somewhat problematic, I think

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#8 Jan 03 2012 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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kids are cheaper to feed.
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#9 Jan 03 2012 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
kids are cheaper to feed to cats.
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#10 Jan 03 2012 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Corn feed the kids, then poof! cat food. Sounds like the cycle of life to me.

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#11 Jan 03 2012 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before some disagreeable **** jumps in about energy efficiency, they might first want to take a look at this study from 2002.

Just goes to show you that people who eat organic foods hate clean air. Smiley: nod
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#12 Jan 03 2012 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:


Just goes to show you that people who eat organic foods hate clean air. Smiley: nod


Could you pull out the quote that says that? I'm feeling too lazy to skim an info dump atm.

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#13 Jan 03 2012 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some "experts" wrote:
Studies conducted since the late 1970s have estimated the net energy value (NEV) of corn ethanol. However, variations in data and assumptions used among the studies have resulted in a wide range of estimates. This study identifies the factors causing this wide variation and develops a more consistent estimate. We conclude that the NEV of corn ethanol has been rising over time due to technological advances in ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production. We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy output:input ratio of 1.34.


They actually put the abstract right on top just for lazy people like you. In other words, you get more energy out of burning corn ethanol than it takes (from us) to produce ethanol. The difference being made up by biological processes, namely photosynthesis.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2012 9:23pm by Jophiel
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#14 Jan 04 2012 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I still don't see the "people who eat organic food hate clean air" argument there...

Also I would suggest the science is not very confident in corn ethanol being more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels - especially given the carbon intensity of mass farming. The below paper suggests corn ethanol is actually worse for the environment and human health than gasoline

Quote:
Environmental impacts of energy use can impose large costs on society. We quantify and monetize the life-cycle climate-change and health effects of greenhouse gas (GHG) and fine particulate matter (PM2.5) emissions from gasoline, corn ethanol, and cellulosic ethanol. For each billion ethanol-equivalent gallons of fuel produced and combusted in the US, the combined climate-change and health costs are $469 million for gasoline, $472–952 million for corn ethanol depending on biorefinery heat source (natural gas, corn stover, or coal) and technology, but only $123–208 million for cellulosic ethanol depending on feedstock (prairie biomass, Miscanthus, corn stover, or switchgrass). Moreover, a geographically explicit life-cycle analysis that tracks PM2.5 emissions and exposure relative to U.S. population shows regional shifts in health costs dependent on fuel production systems. Because cellulosic ethanol can offer health benefits from PM2.5 reduction that are of comparable importance to its climate-change benefits from GHG reduction, a shift from gasoline to cellulosic ethanol has greater advantages than previously recognized. These advantages are critically dependent on the source of land used to produce biomass for biofuels, on the magnitude of any indirect land use that may result, and on other as yet unmeasured environmental impacts of biofuels.


SOURCE

Even if it is possible to get VERY SLIGHTLY more energy out of corn than the amount of energy in the gasoline used to produce the corn - it doesn't solve the problem of how to get the energy from the corn without gasoline to run a modern, energy intensive farm.

In short the model is flawed and unsustainable.

Edited, Jan 4th 2012 2:39pm by Olorinus
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#15 Jan 04 2012 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Even if it is possible to get VERY SLIGHTLY more energy out of corn than the amount of energy in the gasoline used to produce the corn - it doesn't solve the problem of how to get the energy from the corn without gasoline to run a modern, energy intensive farm.

In short the model is flawed and unsustainable.

Green energy, duh! Like solar, wind, cow manure and farts...
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publiusvarus wrote:
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#16 Jan 04 2012 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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(1) I would suggest that Twiz was being facetious in his comment.
(2) A non-insignificant goal of ethanol is energy independence which is separate from the clean energy argument
(3) An "energy output:input ratio of 1.34" means you're getting 134 units out for 100 units in (134/100 = 1.34). That's a 34% increase which I think goes well above the bar of "VERY SLIGHTLY".
(4) Regardless, I have no issue with the subsidies going away for various reasons.

Edit for affirmation by the study:
Quote:
Corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.34; that is, for every Btu dedicated to producing ethanol there is a 34- percent energy gain. Furthermore, producing ethanol from domestic corn stocks achieves a net gain in a more desirable form of energy, which helps the United States to reduce its dependence on imported oil.
Ethanol production utilizes abundant domestic energy feedstocks, such as coal and natural gas, to convert corn into a premium liquid fuel. Only about 17 percent of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 Btu of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btu gain.

My real question from all this is... why are we still using the antiquated and socialist British Thermal Unit? I propose an American Thermal Unit which will be determined by the heat produced from an M-16 muzzle flash.

Edited, Jan 4th 2012 6:30pm by Jophiel
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#17 Jan 04 2012 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Is this thread about how gas prices are on average higher now than they were 3 years ago? (When we supposedly had a shortage or something)
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#18 Jan 04 2012 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Even if it is possible to get VERY SLIGHTLY more energy out of corn than the amount of energy in the gasoline used to produce the corn - it doesn't solve the problem of how to get the energy from the corn without gasoline to run a modern, energy intensive farm.

In short the model is flawed and unsustainable.

Green energy, duh! Like solar, wind, cow manure and farts...


Living (as I do) in a place where 90+ per cent of the electricity supply is renewable
When people think about the generation of electricity, they often think about dams. But although 90% of BC Hydro's generation is produced by hydroelectric means, we have to work hard to balance our customer's energy needs with the concerns of the environment. We are investigating alternative sources of energy, like wind and wave power, in addition to using natural gas and thermal power to round out our generation portfolio.
, renewable energy is nothing to sneeze at. That said - electricity is the key word here.

While electric cars do exist, most vehicles still run on portable fuels. Are agrifood businesses using electric tractors? Is anyone?

Quote:
In the U.S., up to 20 percent of the country's fossil fuel consumption goes into the food chain, according to the UN's Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO), which points out that fossil fuel use by the food systems in the developed world "often rivals that of automobiles".

To feed an average family of four in the developed world uses up the equivalent of 930 gallons of gasoline a year -- just shy of the 1,070 gallons that same family would use up each year to power their cars.

The average developed world diet uses 1,600 liters of fossil fuels each year, according to the U.S. based Organic Consumers Association (OCA). Only 256 of those liters come from transporting the food, says OCA.


Where are the other litres coming from? Fossil fuel based fertilizers are a big part of that number:

Quote:
By contrast, a whopping 496 liters goes into the chemical fertilizers used during the food growing stage, representing well over one third of the food chain's entire fossil fuel consumption.


Source




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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#19 Jan 04 2012 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I propose an American Thermal Unit which will be determined by the heat produced from an M-16 muzzle flash.
At least go with the M4a1 Carbine. Newer model.
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#20 Jan 04 2012 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I propose an American Thermal Unit which will be determined by the heat produced from an M-16 muzzle flash.
At least go with the M4a1 Carbine. Newer model.


And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

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#21 Jan 04 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

Boooooooooooo.... Smiley: mad
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#22 Jan 04 2012 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

Boooooooooooo.... Smiley: mad
An assault on good taste, huh?
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#23 Jan 04 2012 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I propose an American Thermal Unit which will be determined by the heat produced from an M-16 muzzle flash.
At least go with the M4a1 Carbine. Newer model.


And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

The dating scheme will be given in times Before Vietnam (BV) and After Vietnam (AV).
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#24 Jan 05 2012 at 3:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

Boooooooooooo.... Smiley: mad


A good joke always rifles the odd feather.
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#25 Jan 05 2012 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
And then we can work on a new geologic time scale based on carbine dating.

Boooooooooooo.... Smiley: mad


A good joke always rifles the odd feather.


So what you're saying is Jophiel is an odd duck?
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#26 Jan 05 2012 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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The caliber of puns in this thread are pretty stock.
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