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#252 Dec 16 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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I think your religion is more stupid. It was invented approximately yesterday, it shouldn't thou.

My religion has none of that nonsense. We substitute efficiency for pretension, just as we substitute bees for the bones of our converts.

To be honest, it's more a way of life.
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#253 Dec 16 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
No it wasn't. Wicca in its modern form is only about 60 years old, I'll give you that. But its based off of the nature based pagan religions passed down from generation to generation in the UK. Gardner, the "father" of Wicca, learned everything from a group of pagans who had been practicing for generations.

So there. Smiley: tongue
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#254 Dec 16 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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**** in that case everything is ancient.
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#255 Dec 16 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
No it wasn't. Wicca in its modern form is only about 60 years old, I'll give you that. But its based off of the nature based pagan religions passed down from generation to generation in the UK. Gardner, the "father" of Wicca, learned everything from a group of pagans who had been practicing for generations.

So there. Smiley: tongue


I've got something based off water, but I wouldn't drink it.

(It's paint).
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#256 Dec 16 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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My God could so beat up your God.
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#257 Dec 16 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
My God could so beat up your God.

Figuratively or literally?
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#258 Dec 16 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Peimei wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
My God could so beat up your God.

Figuratively or literally?


Both

He's omniawesome. Smiley: waycool
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#259 Dec 16 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
I like my religion better than yours. Smiley: tongue

Pffttt... if you were supposed to like religion, you wouldn't need to beat people with sticks until they sign on.
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#260 Dec 16 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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#261 Dec 16 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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Pesci.


Thats how you spell it. Thank you good sir you may have just helped complete the left side of this crossword.
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#262 Dec 16 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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I can't believe someone didn't like my paint post. That was the funniest thing I've ever said, or will say.

I'm very disappointed in whoever that was.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 11:33pm by Kavekk
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#263 Dec 16 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I can't believe someone didn't like my paint post. That was the funniest thing I've ever said, or will say.

I'm very dissapointed in whoever that was.


If that's the case, you should probably rethink interacting with people.
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#264 Dec 16 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Pesci.


Thats how you spell it. Thank you good sir you may have just helped complete the left side of this crossword.


Joe Pesci works in mysterious ways.
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#265 Dec 16 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
I liked your paint post Kavekk, just not enough to rate you up for it. Smiley: wink2
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#266 Dec 16 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I can't believe someone didn't like my paint post. That was the funniest thing I've ever said, or will say.

I'm very dissapointed in whoever that was.


That may have been me. But my god told me to rate you down.
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#267 Dec 16 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

I've had the belief for probably close to 10 years or more, that every religion out there is worshiping the same God(s) and Goddess(es), they just have different ways of going about it. That's one of the things that I love about religion as a whole, that there is so much diversity, and that if someone is willing to take the time to do some research, they can find whatever path fits them best.



I decided when I was 14 (I'm 34 now) that Celtic Magic and Faerie Wicca was the way to go which then led to what I referred to as a "reawakening" of my Druidic nature.. I still will not deny that the things that I have seen in a supernatural light were real and not hallucinations or delusions.. and I do not believe that all spirits are evil demons like many Christian. I was a Celtic-Shaman; I learned from spirits and guides of the sort that Maybe you can imagine; maybe you can't. I have attended covens; circles; (the biggest one in Salem Mass); I have channeled entities, I have conversed, lived with and seen fairies (real fey; not Elizabethan dolls), I have been paid as an oracle reading runes for hundreds of people, gave past life readings, teach people energy-working, aura-bending, I learned angelic languages from The Enochian teachings and of the ORder of the Golden Dawn, I have looked into the abyss and seen the abyss look back...

But in ALL of that the question still lingered always.. WHAT is the POint? Why?
The only thing that I would say that I didn't and couldn't know for sure; Was if everything is a endless Cycle or if there was an actual End/Oblivion/Nirvana.. I could not say...
I always believed in a Terminal Source of all Things and this Ultimate Source I knew was beyond anything that I could ever know.. beyond words, ego, beyond any petty good and evil, beyond masculine and feminine..
That is why I could never really truly get with Wicca.. because Wicca celebrated the archetypal Mother and Father God and Goddesses and I knew that the Truth was even beyond that..
My problem came when I would meditate still on the Purpose... If the Source had a purpose.. then why did I do prayer and spell-work to change things? Why did I not trust in the Source to provide everything? I rationalized this by saying that by participating and adding my personal energy into the world that I was harmonizing myself to the world and to the Universe.. and I ALWAY rejected any religion that tried to pinpoint an actual Rule or claimed to come from Humans.. I felt that it could ONLY come from something that I myself had experienced from my Pathworking and meditations.. the whole time ignoring that I myself was a creature of the flesh and limited and that in this state any power that I have will always be dwarfed by something larger than myself..
I started realizing that even with a million Dreamtime experiences and no matter how powerfully I could meditate on my higher, eternal "God-Self" that there still could be no complete and sure point to any of it.. that I still did not create the universe.. It Became obvious to me that something ELSE is actually in Total control of the Ocean and that was simply splashing around in my Own pond and that ONE day.. perhaps..that "Something" may decide to pull the plug on the drain of that Ocean.. and no matter HOW well I can teach myself to swim.. even if I grew fins and learned to breath underwater.. that it is impossible to stand up against the Will of the Universe.. Impossible.

Anyway. If you are completely happy then you are happy.. but understand that no matter how much you meditate.. no matter how many times you dance under the stars and no matter how many spirit friend you make.. you are still a created being. You did not create yourself. All spirits are created being and all spirits whether in the flesh or out of the flesh will be held accountable and all will be found wanting if they reject what is right in front of their face because they want to take the place of the creator and usurp the authority of The Source.

Dangerous ground.



PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
. I want no part of a religion which has this idea that "I'm right and you're wrong,


I understand that you want it your way in every way. That's the human way; and we are all very selfish in that way..
but haven't you ever wondered IF there MAY be an actual wrong way? It's There is up there's down, there's down; there's left there's right, there's dark, there's light.. but ALL OF A SUDDEN when if comes to possibly offending somebody we just conveniently ignore that there MAY be correct and incorrect. If the logic center of your mind doesn't recoil in horror at this neglect of such a simple concept then you are completely in denial; this surpass any religious motive... It only makes sense


PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

Excuse me for having an independent thought, but I want to know why something is wrong before I choose to agree or disagree that it is wrong.


Why do you think that YOU get to decide the standard for right and wrong? Did YOU create the Universe?

PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Women have been treated like utter **** in the last 2000 years because of what it says in the Bible. Actually, probably closer to 6000 years I suppose, since the Old Testament is just as guilty.


Come ON; RIght; because only the Hebrews in Christians have treated women unfairly throughout history.. Give me a BREAK.
I will not deny that women have always been treated unfairly; but not as unfairly as anything else; Women and minorities etc don't get treated unfairly (per se) because of religion.. they are treated unfairly out of ignorance, pride, and greed.

PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

"And it harm none, do as thou wilt."


This was another problem I had with Wicca. As a Druid (and yes I still consider myself a Druid in trying to keep those around me in proper touch and balance with the other world: it's what we do and it's all we do; everything else is a distraction) but as a Druid I knew that by observing and experiencing the energy of nature that to simply assume that whatever you do will always "harm none" is an illusion. We have no control over who we harm; we can try very much but it is impossible and it is against every law of the universe.. You cannot ignore the forces of destruction and only pay creed to creative forces.. it is an imbalance and it is dangerous.

PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Quit proselytizing


You are asking me to go against my nature as a shaman and a druid. Shame on you.
Ask anyone here that has known me; this IS what I do and it is ALL that I do; everything else is trivia.

Do ya'll think that I am unaware of how much of an narrow-mind d;ckhead I sound to you right now? I know and I used to give the same argument against what I am saying here against organized religion.. I STILL think organized religion is the wrong way to go.. but most people in the world are not strong enough not to join a club.. it is in our social nature.
That is the thing about Christianity though.. you do NOT have to have some vast understanding of the universe.. you do not have to be in tuned with the patterns and energies of the earth... you do not have to meditate.. you only have to believe and be saved and accept perfect eternal infinite salvation. You do not have to be able to comprehend the Source of All Creation.. only The Anointed One who is The Source incarnated on the earth. It is the only path in the end.

SO whatever.. mock me, rate me into oblivion; does it matter to me that most of you will probably ignore these words and gloss over all of this and scoff at your screens and use me as the object of your scorn? Not really; but I really think that it matters to you..
..and I enjoy writing these walls-o-text because it helps me keep it straight to myself as well.. So whether or not no one ever accepts anything that I say here or if everyone rejects it.. either way; I know I have done my job and I am happy doing it.

Shalom

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 6:10pm by Kelvyquayo
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#268 Dec 16 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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You don't sound like a **** because you believe in organized religion.

You sound like a **** because you are criticizing everyone who doesn't agree with you. You can try and hide it, but that's all you are doing in. And it's pathetic.

Quote:
Anyway. If you are completely happy then you are happy.. but understand that no matter how much you meditate.. no matter how many times you dance under the stars and no matter how many spirit friend you make.. you are still a created being. You did not create yourself. All spirits are created being and all spirits whether in the flesh or out of the flesh will be held accountable and all will be found wanting if they reject what is right in front of their face because they want to take the place of the creator and usurp the authority of The Source.

Dangerous ground.


If she's completely happy, she's completely happy. Why the **** do you need to be an **** and try to tear her down? Because you have an obsessive need for people to agree with you?
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#269 Dec 16 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
I can't believe someone didn't like my paint post. That was the funniest thing I've ever said, or will say.

I'm very dissapointed in whoever that was.


If that's the case, you should probably rethink interacting with people.

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#270 Dec 16 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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You should see the cat Smiley: frown



Still, better than frying it and whipping it at cars.
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#271 Dec 16 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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I whipped something at someone riding around with a bow and arrow, once. Then, I took an arrow to the knee.

As I writhed in agony on the cold, muddy ground, he kindly informed me that I was doing it wrong.
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#272 Dec 16 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did he take your sweetroll?
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#273 Dec 16 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Kelvyquayo wrote:

I started realizing that even with a million Dreamtime experiences and no matter how powerfully I could meditate on my higher, eternal "God-Self" that there still could be no complete and sure point to any of it.. that I still did not create the universe.. It Became obvious to me that something ELSE is actually in Total control of the Ocean and that was simply splashing around in my Own pond and that ONE day.. perhaps..that "Something" may decide to pull the plug on the drain of that Ocean.. and no matter HOW well I can teach myself to swim.. even if I grew fins and learned to breath underwater.. that it is impossible to stand up against the Will of the Universe.. Impossible.

Anyway. If you are completely happy then you are happy.. but understand that no matter how much you meditate.. no matter how many times you dance under the stars and no matter how many spirit friend you make.. you are still a created being. You did not create yourself. All spirits are created being and all spirits whether in the flesh or out of the flesh will be held accountable and all will be found wanting if they reject what is right in front of their face because they want to take the place of the creator and usurp the authority of The Source.

Dangerous ground.


I don't know anything about Faerie Wicca, so I can't comment on that. I've been taught British Traditional Wicca, which is an offshoot of Gardnerian Wicca. I agree that I didn't create myself. The idea that someone can create theirself is pretty ludicrous to me. Even an atheist can look at rational science and say that their parents created them. I have no desire to usurp the authority of the Lord and Lady, I simply wish for them to guide me to the path they want me to take.

Kelvyquayo wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
. I want no part of a religion which has this idea that "I'm right and you're wrong,


I understand that you want it your way in every way. That's the human way; and we are all very selfish in that way..
but haven't you ever wondered IF there MAY be an actual wrong way? It's There is up there's down, there's down; there's left there's right, there's dark, there's light.. but ALL OF A SUDDEN when if comes to possibly offending somebody we just conveniently ignore that there MAY be correct and incorrect. If the logic center of your mind doesn't recoil in horror at this neglect of such a simple concept then you are completely in denial; this surpass any religious motive... It only makes sense


As I said, I believe that every religion is worshiping the same deity, they just have different ways of going about it. If everyone is worshiping the same deity, then nobody is wrong. I don't want things my way in every way. Getting uncomfortable occasionally is what makes life exciting.

Kelvyquayo wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

Excuse me for having an independent thought, but I want to know why something is wrong before I choose to agree or disagree that it is wrong.


Why do you think that YOU get to decide the standard for right and wrong? Did YOU create the Universe?


Um, because I am a sentient being capable of rational thought? There is no one morality. Sure, there are a few things that are black and white always wrong, but the vast majority of the time, things are black and white. Why does a being have to be the Creator to decide what is right and wrong for themselves? I don't decide what is right or wrong for other people, I decide what is right or wrong for myself.

Kelvyquayo wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Women have been treated like utter **** in the last 2000 years because of what it says in the Bible. Actually, probably closer to 6000 years I suppose, since the Old Testament is just as guilty.


Come ON; RIght; because only the Hebrews in Christians have treated women unfairly throughout history.. Give me a BREAK.
I will not deny that women have always been treated unfairly; but not as unfairly as anything else; Women and minorities etc don't get treated unfairly (per se) because of religion.. they are treated unfairly out of ignorance, pride, and greed.


I never said that only the Hebrews and Christians have treated women unfairly. Muslims have been just as guilty, but the Koran is not part of the bible, which is why I didn't think to mention it. Women haven't always been treated unfairly, only since the invent of agriculture and the idea of "property" was invented.

Kelvyquayo wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:

"And it harm none, do as thou wilt."


This was another problem I had with Wicca. As a Druid (and yes I still consider myself a Druid in trying to keep those around me in proper touch and balance with the other world: it's what we do and it's all we do; everything else is a distraction) but as a Druid I knew that by observing and experiencing the energy of nature that to simply assume that whatever you do will always "harm none" is an illusion. We have no control over who we harm; we can try very much but it is impossible and it is against every law of the universe.. You cannot ignore the forces of destruction and only pay creed to creative forces.. it is an imbalance and it is dangerous.


The Wiccan Rede isn't supposed to be taken literally. Obviously, there are times when people act with good intentions and cause harm to others. The point is to try to live your life with the INTENT of not harming others, and to think about how your actions affect others. To try and minimize the negative effects of our existence on the planet.
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#274Kelvyquayo, Posted: Dec 16 2011 at 5:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If that was my need then I would say something that everyone could agree with.Smiley: dubious
#275 Dec 16 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Christianity = dumb
Channeling entities, seeing faeries, getting PAID(@#%^ing scam artist) to read runes! = Beyond useless.

Just to clarify. I don't mind admitting that I hate religion in general. But **** that take peoples money to preform tarot readings, runes, palmistry, etc. etc. those people need to be shot with there own ****

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 7:21pm by Peimei
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#276 Dec 16 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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Pigtails,

I first should say that though we don't agree and I know you are not seeking my approval that I fully appreciate your honest response to my words and I hope that I do not cause offense to you. I know my words here are harsh sometimes; but this is the Asylum and by rule it is usually a harsh environment for discussion; but I thank you from the bottom of my heart for a response that was sincere, well thought, and totally lacking the vitriol that has run rampant here.
and I promise that it was not my goal to hi-jack this thread with my ranting.. really. These "things just happen". I am not saying this to try to elicit an argument from you or to try to gain favor with you; I am convinced that you have a genuine fascination with all things spiritual and enjoy discussing them as do I.
anyway; from my soul to your soul: Thank you.
on to business-
Quote:

There is no one morality. Sure, there are a few things that are black and white always wrong


That seems to mean that there is (at least on some level) one morality even if there are only a few things that are a constant.
I am not going to claim to know your connection and understanding that that which we would call "The Source" or the Two-fold Lord and Lady; but in believing in these things and calling them Lord then you must be subject to them and to their Laws.. You say that you follow the will of the Lord and Lady but you also said that you yourself decide what is right and wrong. If you truly worship them then indeed they would be the ones deciding what is right and wrong.

In the same light you state:
Quote:
that every religion is worshiping the same deity, they just have different ways of going about it. If everyone is worshiping the same deity, then nobody is wrong.


This would then imply that the deity is wrong; if it be that the deity is truly worshiped by everybody in different ways. There are definitely some ways that people worship that conflict.. for example, as many here are so eager to point out (along with me) that Christianity isn't compatible with much else.. If anything this was a clear sign to me that it stands alone.. not as being the most intolerant and hostile of beliefs but the one that would stand most true to the Source of All Creation..
I do not doubt for a single moment that those that are worshiping The Lord and Lady and all other deities and entities out there truly believe that they are paying homage to the Source or to the "God of their understanding" certainly..
and I certainly believed the exact same thing..

-that we were all drinking from the same fountain.

The notion that I never considered though was IF there was something beyond the fountain.. because fountains do not really make demands.. and fountains do not tr to impose their will on people.. which is why I was content to just keep drinking..
but what I never considered was that the fountain itself HAD a Source of its own and if that Source actually had a Will of its Own.. and All things came from this SOurce.. perhaps Through the Fountain.. but not FROM the Fountain..
and if it were the case the the Fountain itself had a Creator with Will; how could I ever know this Will and know that this Will was real and not just the will other someone else that has been drinking from the same Fountain as me?

That is when everything started to make sense to me.. Not all at once.. but I began to sense something different when I actually decided to investigate for myself.. That is when it all changed and then I was changed totally..

and here we are.
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#277 Dec 16 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
But mother@#%^ers that take peoples money to preform tarot readings, runes, palmistry, etc. etc. those people need to be shot with there own sh*t!


HEY: My rune-readings were QUITE accurate. I should know; I worked for commission Smiley: wink
For the record I did it during live bands performing.. usually so loud it my readings would usually have to devolve into a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down Smiley: clown
and they came to me (albeit lured by my giant KNOW THYSELF sign).

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#278 Dec 16 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
But mother@#%^ers that take peoples money to preform tarot readings, runes, palmistry, etc. etc. those people need to be shot with there own sh*t!


HEY: My rune-readings were QUITE accurate. I should know; I worked for commission Smiley: wink
For the record I did it during live bands performing.. usually so loud it my readings would usually have to devolve into a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down Smiley: clown
and they came to me (albeit lured by my giant KNOW THYSELF sign).


Fair enough, that kind of thing is fine. It's when you charge people for false hope that I really get ****
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MNK: "OK we're gonna go in and get those items."
WHM: "Did you have a plan?"
MNK: "Plan? I was going to walk through the front door and start punching people."
#279 Dec 16 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

That seems to mean that there is (at least on some level) one morality even if there are only a few things that are a constant.


Nothing is constant. Humans may have created standards we consider constant, but there aren't. EVERYTHING we consider moral or immoral is tailored to our own values. And I doubt you can name a single moral standard that has held throughout recorded history.

Our own society pretty much only considers one thing necessarily evil, and that's child molestation. Throughout most of human history, what we consider "children" were "prime marriage material."
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#280 Dec 16 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And I doubt you can name a single moral standard that has held throughout recorded history.
DON'T TAZE ME BRO
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#281 Dec 16 2011 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:

That seems to mean that there is (at least on some level) one morality even if there are only a few things that are a constant.


Nothing is constant. Humans may have created standards we consider constant, but there aren't. EVERYTHING we consider moral or immoral is tailored to our own values. And I doubt you can name a single moral standard that has held throughout recorded history.

Our own society pretty much only considers one thing necessarily evil, and that's child molestation. Throughout most of human history, what we consider "children" were "prime marriage material."



Not... exactly. Every known society has/had prohibitions against murder and incest. I think your quibble is based on the fact there are various definitions of those terms.

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#282 Dec 16 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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except that those prohibitions have been consistently broken many many times. I think his point was something along the line of, we talk high and mighty, but we have broken every moral we have held.
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#283 Dec 16 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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That seems to mean that there is (at least on some level) one morality even if there are only a few things that are a constant.


Nothing is constant. Humans may have created standards we consider constant, but there aren't. EVERYTHING we consider moral or immoral is tailored to our own values. And I doubt you can name a single moral standard that has held throughout recorded history.

Our own society pretty much only considers one thing necessarily evil, and that's child molestation. Throughout most of human history, what we consider "children" were "prime marriage material."



Not... exactly. Every known society has/had prohibitions against murder and incest. I think your quibble is based on the fact there are various definitions of those terms.



There's a huge difference between moral and legal prohibitions. Murder DEFINITELY doesn't exist as a moral prohibition across all cultures. Most cultures had protections for at least the elite class of their own people, but MANY held no moral objection to murder outside of those individuals. And so the moral objection can't have been to murder, but was to something else associated with the act.

Sibling marriages have been common at various points in time. Though, if we limit incest to purely parent/child, I don't have anything to prove you wrong. Anything else though has definitely been common within some culture at some point in our history.

[EDIT] To be clear, I'm considering them purely in their most basic sense. Incest is sexual relations between family members and murder is the unjustified ending of another life (with major "justifications" being self-defense, honor and war). Viking culture, for instance, definitely prohibited against killing other viking men and their wives. Killing any non-viking that irritated you had no moral implications. Hell, killing a viking that wasn't closely associated with your own tribe was usually fine.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 10:42pm by idiggory
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#284 Dec 16 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I sort of think that Kelvy chose Christianity because it says he will live forever (in heaven) and be happy when he dies. Smiley: frown At least, that's what I got from his response to Pigtails.
#285 Dec 17 2011 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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#286 Dec 17 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
There's a huge difference between moral and legal prohibitions. Murder DEFINITELY doesn't exist as a moral prohibition across all cultures. Most cultures had protections for at least the elite class of their own people, but MANY held no moral objection to murder outside of those individuals. And so the moral objection can't have been to murder, but was to something else associated with the act.


No, that's pretty much entirely wrong. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with legal prohibitions. Every culture prohibits murder, however that culture defines murder. This has nothing to do with specific individuals' actions, however, as every culture also has law breakers and rebels and sociopaths and whatnot.

If you can find an example of what you're talking about I'll gladly reconsider my opinion.
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#287 Dec 17 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Default
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Then you are making an argument that relies on a premise of transliteration, which is logically invalid. You are turning to wordplay instead of looking at the actual concept. It's a rather gbaji-esque move, actually.

Murder, defined as the unwarranted killing of another human being, is objectionable in our culture. You are absolutely free to play with the definition, but not holding the same definition for all acts is not good logic.

I can make a ton of universal claims about human morality if I'm allowed to play it fast and loose with the definitions. But it's just absurd to do so.

I don't really care if you choose our cultural definition, or try and boil it down to the smallest form (which makes the strongest argument).

But if we are accepting that murder is the unwarranted killing of another human, then many (if not MOST) human cultures DEFINITELY did not hold that moral standard. Moral obligation not to murder typically ended at the boundaries of their society. The huns, various European barbarous groups, and African/South American tribes come to mind.

[EDIT]

Ummm, in case that didn't make sense, because my head is kinda scattered right now...

The logical argument:
1. Murder = An Act such that the act is: unwarranted and kill any other.
2. A is unwarranted
3. A kills any other
4. A is Murder

Fair?

Now bring in malleable definitions:
1. Murder = An act such that the act is: unwarranted and kills any other. (Assumption)
2. Murder = An act such that the act is: unwarranted and kills someone within your social group. (Assumption)
3. A is unwarranted. (Assumption)
4. A kills someone outside your social group. (Assumption)
5. A is murder (1, 3, 4)
6. A is not murder (2, 3, 4)
7. A is murder and is not murder (5, 6)
8. Alma is not a virgin

6 and 7 are clearly paradoxical (and there's a fun rule in logic that means, when you derive a paradox, you are allowed to derive ANYTHING, which is why I chose to pick something absurd).

Edited, Dec 17th 2011 10:56pm by idiggory
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#288 Dec 17 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't pastapunk technically be devices and technology powered by pasta, not made from it? otherwise the steampunkers are going to be very scalded.
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#289 Dec 18 2011 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Given that nothing in modern "steampunk" is remotely driven by steam... no.
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#290 Dec 18 2011 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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#291 Dec 18 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Murder, defined as the unwarranted killing of another human being, is objectionable in our culture. You are absolutely free to play with the definition, but not holding the same definition for all acts is not good logic.


Because people are not logical. Culture is not a logical construct.

Many, though not most, societies don't consider outsiders human on the same level as themselves. Many tribes, clans, and nations use a word to describe themselves that translates to "people" or "the people". They don't consider others, strangers, barbarians as being equal and due the same protections.

This does not obviate the fact that they still have a prohibition against murder as they define it.

But I do see where the misunderstanding arose.
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#292 Dec 18 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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Murder, defined as the unwarranted killing of another human being, is objectionable in our culture. You are absolutely free to play with the definition, but not holding the same definition for all acts is not good logic.


Because people are not logical. Culture is not a logical construct.

Many, though not most, societies don't consider outsiders human on the same level as themselves. Many tribes, clans, and nations use a word to describe themselves that translates to "people" or "the people". They don't consider others, strangers, barbarians as being equal and due the same protections.

This does not obviate the fact that they still have a prohibition against murder as they define it.

But I do see where the misunderstanding arose.

This is mostly because laws are a group social construct, and thus the protections and limitations offered by them are only offered to those who subscribe, implicitly or explicitly. IE if you don't choose to be part of the group, there is no reason for the group to expend energy to protect you.

Murder is only considered a crime when it hurts the social construct or it's creators, same as every other crime.
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#293 Dec 18 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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For the most part. Of course it's applied inconsistently, even with those caveats.

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#294 Dec 18 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
For the most part. Of course it's applied inconsistently, even with those caveats.



If you exclude cases where it's a force projection issue, you'll find exceptions are quite rare.
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#295 Dec 19 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I sort of think that Kelvy chose Christianity because it says he will live forever (in heaven) and be happy when he dies. Smiley: frown At least, that's what I got from his response to Pigtails.


My prior Druidic belief was actually much more limitless.. essentially assuming that if I personally developed myself spiritually and psychically that I would essentially fully realize my God-like potential and and that at some point a great spiritual revolution/evolution would happen in the universe which I and others that were as spiritually adept as I was would really "shine". It is still quite a common believe..
Also my prior belief that that my Higher-Self existed outside of time and that I was just vacationing in human form right now and that when I died I would go back to my true higher-self state which exists outside of the realms of space/time... and that there was no death.. just the turning of many pages..

so no:
The thing that veered me toward Christianity was an honest exploration of what it meant vs what it was that I believed based on personal observation; unbiased personal observation. (if you can believe that).

What I hadn't realized is that the personal observations on which I based my spiritual beliefs could really not fully be trusted in the light of my own limitations vs the possible perfection that would eminate for the theorectical "Source of All Creation" that I now call God (YWVH); but the hardest part was shedding the old beliefs that I had so carefully concocted and based my views and philosphies on.. but that is part of the process is realizing and admitting that you are powerless like dust in a hurricane..
I believed that I had learned to swim and I thought that people like Christian were just weak fools who had no spiritual developmemnt of their own and so had to rely on rafts built by other people to stay spiritually afloat.. I would always shed the notion from my mind that at some point someone or something my pull the plug on the drain and then it didn't matter how well you could swim.. everyone sinks.. and that which pulls the plug is that which filled the pool in the first place.. so that it might be a good idea to pay attention.. I would think of that and it made me very nervous to concider that possibility to I would tuck it away and continue on my own personal swimming lessons..

but I also believe that no one can intellectually come to truly believe these things unless/until they are ready and prepared and at that point it really is "divine intervention" which kind of lubricates your minds eye and actually allows you to shed all of the presuppostions(resistance) that we develop over the years of our lives.
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#296 Dec 19 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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You're like a caricature of a religious person. It's only a matter of time until you start spelling it G_d.
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#297 Dec 19 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think Idiggory's and Samira's argument is the result poor communication, and not largely a disagreement on the reality of the situation.

Idiggory - You earlier defined murder as the unwarranted killing of an individual. This is a flawed definition, and possibly the root of your misunderstanding. More accurately, murder is the illegal killing of an individual. Samira drew this distinction. Societies differ on what they choose to deem acceptable killings (not murder) and unacceptable killings (murder). And Samira was suggesting that there was a consistent distinction across societies that there is some killings which are bad and some which are good.

You misunderstood the term murder.

Samira - Idiggory's original term was that of morals or moral standards. His argument was that these were rather inconsistent. while moral standard is a term more open to interpretation than murder, I don't think your point about murder is valid (and--irrelevantly--that your point about incest is entirely correct). If you accept murder as being define as illegal killings, then saying that every society has prohibitions against murder is a tautology. Illegal actions are those which are prohibited. "Doing wrong things is wrong," is not itself a moral. That societies hold some types of killings as unacceptable is not itself enough to justify the argument that there exists a consistent moral belief across every society. "Murder is wrong" is not a moral, it is redundancy. "Slaying a fellow villager (without due cause) is murder" is a moral.

You misunderstood the term moral standard.

Edited, Dec 19th 2011 5:16pm by Allegory
#298 Dec 19 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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#299 Dec 19 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You misunderstood the term moral standard.


No, I didn't; but as always your condescension is just the best condescension ever.

When I understood we were talking about different things, I said so.

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#300 Dec 19 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You're like a caricature of a religious person. It's only a matter of time until you start spelling it G_d.



I can't tell if you're being silly, or if you have just honestly not noticed that he does this already...
#301 Dec 19 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I thought "G_d" was mainly a Jewish thing.
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