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#52 Dec 07 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Driftwood wrote:
If Iran shot it down, then that implies that it was being flown through Iranian airspace without permission, and hence could actually be seen as an act of aggression by the USA.
Well, that assumes that it was actively being flown over Iranian airspace, and it hadn't malfunctioned and drifted in. Most of the time those things are flown around borders anyway to keep watch of traffic, and most of the **** we use is built by companies that bid low enough to get our attention and still charged more than the work deserved. These things go down quite frequently, they just don't make news unless someone else recovers them.

Anyway, can't really say one way or the other because absent any real evidence both sides are going to plead their innocence.
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#53 Dec 07 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Driftwood wrote:
If Iran shot it down, then that implies that it was being flown through Iranian airspace without permission, and hence could actually be seen as an act of aggression by the USA.
Well, that assumes that it was actively being flown over Iranian airspace, and it hadn't malfunctioned and drifted in.

Either way the thing was certainly in Iranian airspace, however it got there, so the "pretext" for a war is gone, from the US point of view. Iran may have a pretext now but they sure as **** aren't going to start a war with the US so it doesn't matter.
#54 Dec 07 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Joph...

Keep rockin' the Conservative Crazy, sport Smiley: thumbsup
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#55varusword75, Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 1:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why is it crazy to think Obama would give away technology to radical muslims? He already gave them Egypt.
#56 Dec 07 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like that you conveniently left out the Iran-Contra Affair.
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#57 Dec 07 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:



What's insane is you liberals thinking that everything bad that happens is just a coincidence.


If it wasn't coincidence, if it was planned by a dirty liberal leader then it's not 'bad'. Right?

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#58 Dec 07 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iran wouldn't be where it is today without Reagan sucking terrorist **** These days they need to shoot down our drones for intel but back in the good ole days, Ronnie couldn't hand the terrorists US military technology fast enough.
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#59varusword75, Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 2:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lagaga,
#60 Dec 07 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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That would be "feign ignorance" if anyone believed your ignorance wasn't genuine.
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#61 Dec 07 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Unless, of course, it landed exactly were it was supposed to.

Thanks for continuing to toe the conservative conspiracy line. Gbaji will be along shortly to say "Not that Varus is right, but he's totally right..."

"I'm not saying it's conspiracy...

but it's conspiracy."
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#62 Dec 07 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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varusword75 wrote:
Why is it crazy to think Obama would give away technology to radical muslims? He already gave them Egypt.

Clinton sold technology to the chi-coms. This is what democrats do.


What's insane is you liberals thinking that everything bad that happens is just a coincidence.



REAGEN DO GOOD!?

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6. In June, 1982, President Reagan decided that the United States could not afford to allow Iraq to lose the war to Iran. President Reagan decided that the United States would do whatever was necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran. President Reagan formalized this policy by issuing a National Security Decision Directive ("NSDD") to this effect in June, 1982. I have personal knowledge of this NSDD because I co-authored the NSDD with another NSC Staff Member, Geoff Kemp. The NSDD, including even its identifying number, is classified.

7. CIA Director Casey personally spearheaded the effort to ensure that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to avoid losing the Iran-Iraq war. Pursuant to the secret NSDD, the United States actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing U.S. military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that Iraq had the military weaponry required. The United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat. For example, in 1986, President Reagan sent a secret message to Saddam Hussein telling him that Iraq should step up its air war and bombing of Iran. This message was delivered by Vice President Bush who communicated it to Egyptian President Mubarak, who in turn passed the message to Saddam Hussein. Similar strategic operational military advice was passed to Saddam Hussein through various meetings with European and Middle Eastern heads of state. I authored Bush's talking points for the 1986 meeting with Mubarak and personally attended numerous meetings with European and Middle East heads of state where the strategic operational advice was communicated.

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#63 Dec 07 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Unless, of course, it landed exactly were it was supposed to.

Thanks for continuing to toe the conservative conspiracy line. Gbaji will be along shortly to say "Not that Varus is right, but he's totally right..."

"I'm not saying it's conspiracy...

but it's conspiracy."


"Lol. Obviously, I don't agree with what he's saying. But what I think is telling, is that everyone is so quick to dismiss the possibility that there's something not quite right going on here. And you can't deny that Obama has been taking a soft stance on Iran. What concerns me, is that the liberal media isn't investigating the issue, and that they and this administration are still trying to systematically dismantle the military. You can bet that if a Republican was in office, this wouldn't have happened."

I dunno. Something like that, I'd wager.
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#64 Dec 07 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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"Be careful that is a real slippery slope to be walking on Eske. The conservative media has been on top of this since day one. If you could only pry yourself from the liberal mainstream you would know this. Show me one case ha five cases where a republican president was in office when american miltary technology went to our enemies or potential enemies, presently or in the past.

This is 200x above your understanding."

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 4:01pm by rdmcandie
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#65 Dec 07 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
This is literally 200x above your understanding.

Repaired.
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#66 Dec 07 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Unless, of course, it landed exactly were it was supposed to.

Thanks for continuing to toe the conservative conspiracy line. Gbaji will be along shortly to say "Not that Varus is right, but he's totally right..."

"I'm not saying it's conspiracy...

but it's conspiracy."


"Lol. Obviously, I don't agree with what he's saying. But what I think is telling, is that everyone is so quick to dismiss the possibility that there's something not quite right going on here. And you can't deny that Obama has been taking a soft stance on Iran. What concerns me, is that the liberal media isn't investigating the issue, and that they and this administration are still trying to systematically dismantle the military. You can bet that if a Republican was in office, this wouldn't have happened."

I dunno. Something like that, I'd wager.


So the president showed up and told the airman flying the thing to look the other way while he hit the reset button?

I'm not sure what part you're having a problem believing. I doubt anybody is arguing that we're spying on Iran, so there isn't much point in arguing why it was there in the first place. As far as "losing" it, it happens. It's a covert ops device designed to be undetected, meaning it's probably controlled by a LoS satellite connection. If the LoS was lost for whatever reason it may have changed course, meaning it wasn't where it should have been when the LoS was clear. Kind of hard to locate and reconnect with something specifically designed to be invisible to technology if you don't know where it went.

As far as dismantling the military, it's the popular course of action right now. The people don't like the war and they don't have any money. So, end the war and take the money from the military. Easy reelection. What people don't seem to understand is that if you significantly downsize the military, all those people have to get jobs elsewhere. And there are programs in place that give preferential treatment to retired military, meaning an even smaller pool to play in.
#67 Dec 07 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did you just misquote or are you that fucking out of the loop?
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#68 Dec 07 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Did you just misquote or are you that fucking out of the loop?


I only pop in here on occasion, so I may have completely misread it.
#69 Dec 07 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Did you just misquote or are you that fucking out of the loop?

Air quotes around something mean that you're especially serious about it!
#70varusword75, Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 3:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Rao,
#71 Dec 07 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Did you just misquote or are you that fucking out of the loop?

Air quotes around something mean that you're especially serious about it!


Aw, you guys suck. If you had given me a second, I was gonna run with that and see how long I could string him along. Smiley: bah
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#72 Dec 07 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Quote:
As far as "losing" it, it happens


Well shucks I guess that's just the way it is when multi-million dollar very sophisticated tech is given to radical muslims.


Aren't you an insurance agent? **** happens" is pretty much what your entire industry is built around.
#73varusword75, Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 4:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Rao,
#74 Dec 07 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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At what point did they deny it happened?
#75 Dec 07 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gumbo Galahad wrote:
Liberals and the media gave Obama credit for taking out bin laden. Now that tech is missing shouldn't he also stand up and take the blame and promise to get it back?
As soon as the last guy stands up and promises to get back the 70 that were lost during his administration.
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#76 Dec 07 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm liberal and I don't hate the military. My wife is in the military and has been for 8 years. In fact I support the military to no end, I just don't agree with the war like most soldiers and pogues I know.

Try harder with your generalizations.
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#77 Dec 07 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Varus,

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Why is it crazy to think Obama would give away technology to radical muslims? He already gave them Egypt.


So you'r saying that the west should have just ignored the fact that millions of people were suffering because the existing government was friendly towards us? Sounds terrible to me. Also, to call the people currently running Egypt "radical muslims" is a bit of a stretch.

Quote:
Clinton sold technology to the chi-coms. This is what democrats do.



That's capitalism. Want to sell something? Got a buyer? Sell to the buyer. Capitalism.

Quote:
What's insane is you liberals thinking that everything bad that happens is just a coincidence.


Again, liberal is an inaccurate label. Nothing in international politics and econimics is just conicidence, and if I had more time, I'd lay out for you the history of the last 31 years regarding Iran, The Middle East, American foreign policy, and the religion of Islam, but I'm a college student, I have more pressing and important things to do with my time.

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I like that you have no idea what went on during the iran-contra affair.


I don't think you do either.

Quote:
Well shucks I guess that's just the way it is when multi-million dollar very sophisticated tech is given to radical muslims.


In the case of Iran's government, I think, "orthodox muslims" is a lot closer to the truth than "radical muslims". Also, it wasn't given, no western government would do so in the current political climate, even if you want to believe it really badly. I am however, getting the feeling that you're one of those people who thinks you should be able to fly into any country's airspace regardless of international law, treaties, etc. just because you're American.

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What in the h*ll does that have to do with the US govn losing a piece of sophisticated technology and then the president pretending it didn't happen? What do you think would happen if someone called in to file a claim and I pretended they didn't call?


Where does it say, anywhere, that the president is pretending it didn't happen?
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Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#78 Dec 07 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Relavent to the topic at hand.

Varus, I'm waiting for you to disprove the documented proof that a republican president gave, in your words, "radical muslims" technology and aid.

Edited, Dec 7th 2011 4:32pm by ArexLovesPie
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#79 Dec 07 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Driftwood wrote:
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Clinton sold technology to the chi-coms. This is what democrats do.

That's capitalism. Want to sell something? Got a buyer? Sell to the buyer. Capitalism.

Yeah, you'd think the Republicans would be in favor of this kind of free-market economy.

And I'm still puzzled by the claims that liberals hate the military. I don't hate the military; **** I have friends and family that are on active duty. I just don't like seeing them put at risk for silly nation-building wars overseas. Especially when people **** that we assisted in popular revolts like Egypt and Libya, yet have nothing but praise for the prolonged occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. The Republicans must be the ones who hate the military and keep sending them into unwinnable situations.
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#80 Dec 07 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone noticed that China has been doing some sabre-rattling of its own?
http://www.eutimes.net/2011/12/chinese-general-threatens-us-with-world-war-3-over-iran/
I don't know how respected Major General Zhang Zhaozhong is; but he certainly seems to have raised a few eyebrows stating
Quote:
“China will not hesitate to protect Iran even with a third world war,”

I notice that wasn't on many Western headline.. so I guess it's OK Smiley: rolleyes

It certainly does seems like sides are being taken and some lines being clearly drawn in the sand..
I'm just waiting to see where Russia, Syria, and Israel are going to land.. although I could probably guess.

Interesting times, certainly.
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#81 Dec 07 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm just waiting to see where Russia, Syria, and Israel are going to land.. although I could probably guess.


Russia's got it's own problems at the moment.

I'm going to be sorely disappointed if Putin goes down for election fraud. He deserves something worthy of a Bond villain. Not that I think Putin is evil, mind you, but if he was evil he'd somehow be even cooler.



Edited, Dec 7th 2011 11:40pm by Omegavegeta
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#82 Dec 07 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just waiting to see where Russia, Syria, and Israel are going to land.. although I could probably guess.


Syria is up in the air at the moment, being at the beginnings of what looks to be an unavoidable civil war and all.
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Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#83 Dec 07 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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China can't afford to go to war with us. They'd like it if their bonds were actually worth something.
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#84 Dec 07 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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They have 1.3bil people to feed, cut off grain exports from the US on top of Russia's grain problems and they could be in world of hurt. Really the U.S and China have each other by the balls so its not as one sided as some would like to think.
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#85 Dec 08 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, this actually is the blessing in disguise of interconnected global economics. These days anyone who's big enough to pose a real threat has too much invested to engage in hostilities.
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#86 Dec 08 2011 at 5:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Did you just misquote or are you that fucking out of the loop?


I only pop in here on occasion, so I may have completely misread it.

Either pop in more or hush, then.
#87 Dec 08 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
ArexLovesPie wrote:
Try harder with your generalizations.
You do realize that that idiot actually will try harder now, don't you?
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#88 Dec 08 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Iran released footage of the drone showing it in intact condition. Iran says they hijacked it electronically and forced it to land.

The skull flags are a nice touch.
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#89 Dec 08 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll buy the "Obama just gave it to them" story a lot sooner than the "We hacked it" story.
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#90 Dec 08 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'll buy the "Obama just gave it to them" story a lot sooner than the "We hacked it" story.


I wouldn't. The US is so far behind in that area that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Iran pulled it off.
#91 Dec 08 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
China can't afford to go to war with us. They'd like it if their bonds were actually worth something.


I am thinking more along the lines of Israel attacking Iran. I'm not convinced that Israel could be used as our "pitbull" in the Middle East..
Then again; I doubt anything of the sort will happen while Obama is still in office.
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#92 Dec 08 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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If Obama "gave" it to them: It's a trojan horse. As soon as they "hacked" the honeypot trap (oh so juicy) and "took control" of the drone, they got a fresh dose of Stuxnet II on their entire internal IT network and they'll be battling it for years.

Actually, that's a brilliant plan. Smiley: lol
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#93 Dec 08 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Varus wrote:
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As far as dismantling the military, it's the popular course of action right now. The people don't like the war and they don't have any money. So, end the war and take the money from the military. Easy reelection. What people don't seem to understand is that if you significantly downsize the military, all those people have to get jobs elsewhere.



You're a pre-teen aren't you....don't lie.


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#94 Dec 08 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, the idea that the country whose most secure nuclear facility still managed to get trashed by a worm can hijack our spy drones is pretty ludicrous.
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#95 Dec 08 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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RavennofTitan wrote:
They have 1.3bil people to feed, cut off grain exports from the US on top of Russia's grain problems and they could be in world of hurt. Really the U.S and China have each other by the balls so its not as one sided as some would like to think.


Yeah I was thinking about that in terms of nuclear war... if anything like that got serious the social disorder, panic and chaos on both sides of the war would be pretty hard to manage. I mean, a billion people freaking out that they might be torched with an atom bomb would be tough for even the most authoritarian regime to deal with.
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#96 Dec 08 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'll buy the "Obama just gave it to them" story a lot sooner than the "We hacked it" story.


I wouldn't. The US is so far behind in that area that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Iran pulled it off.


Remember this?

It does suggest that the military isn't always on top of this stuff.

Quote:
“U.S. military personnel in Iraq discovered the problem late last year when they apprehended a Shiite militant whose laptop contained files of intercepted drone video feeds,” Wall Street Journal reports. “In July, the U.S. military found pirated drone video feeds on other militant laptops, leading some officials to conclude that militant groups trained and funded by Iran were regularly intercepting feeds.”

How’d the militants manage to get access to such secret data? Basically by pointing satellite dishes up, and waiting for the drone feeds to pour in. According to the Journal, militants have exploited a weakness: The data links between the drone and the ground control station were never encrypted. Which meant that pretty much anyone could tap into the overhead surveillance that many commanders feel is America’s most important advantage in its two wars. Pretty much anyone could intercept the feeds of the drones that are the focal point for the secret U.S. war in Pakistan.


Edited, Dec 8th 2011 11:10am by Olorinus
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#97 Dec 08 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was going to reference the same event but got busy. No, intercepting video feeds isn't the same as controlling the drone but it does show that stuff gets left with security holes. How many reports have we seen about gaping holes in our own infrastructure systems that can be exploited by hackers as we laugh at Iran for falling prey to the Stuxnet virus (which was handcrafted to exploit their system).
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#98 Dec 08 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I was going to reference the same event but got busy. No, intercepting video feeds isn't the same as controlling the drone but it does show that stuff gets left with security holes. How many reports have we seen about gaping holes in our own infrastructure systems that can be exploited by hackers as we laugh at Iran for falling prey to the Stuxnet virus (which was handcrafted to exploit their system).


Vericode just released their findings and the government ranks pretty much the worst all the time.
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#99varusword75, Posted: Dec 08 2011 at 3:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cat,
#100 Dec 08 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Cat,

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If Obama "gave" it to them: It's a trojan horse. As soon as they "hacked" the honeypot trap (oh so juicy) and "took control" of the drone, they got a fresh dose of Stuxnet II on their entire internal IT network and they'll be battling it for years.

Actually, that's a brilliant plan


Great plan that people might actually believe were Obama not so sympathetic towards muslims.


Hate mongering much? I guess land of the free means everyone who isn't white and male.
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#101 Dec 08 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Stuxnet was the precision tactical nuke of viruses. It took advantage of multiple ZDEs and was written to target a very specific system with specific control signatures. Stuxnet is in no way an indication of how strong or weak a network is.

As far as the cyber aspect of the US military, it's a joke. Cyber control wasn't established until either '08 or '09 and was bounced back and fourth between the NSA and USAF for the past few years. They just completed one of their first (if not their first) large scale cyber war game within the past week or two.

The video feed thing is relatively minor since the video feed and control feeds are likely operating on two different connections. However, a few months ago the control center at Nellis discovered malware in the drone control systems. Depending on who you listened to, it was either a keylogger, monitoring software, or random internet garbage.

Also, it was recently discovered that China has been in our government and defense systems for years without us knowing it. Who knows how much info they managed to pull from us. RSA was recently breached with attacks on both Lockheed and Northrop using those breached RSA tokens, and who knows how many other defense contractors that didn't publicly report the attack.

The US recently redefined cyber attacks as an act of war due to how badly we've been being raped on the cyber front. If Iran had any chance of downing this thing, I would say electronically was the only plausible option they had.
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