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#77 Nov 14 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
catwho wrote:
He feels that all sports programs should end and universities should instead focus on the business of educating.
I guess he doesn't understand where the most donations to the schools come from, eh?

I'm not sure what you're after here. At my school the athletics department keeps its budget separate from the university.
Fair enough as it was poorly worded. What I should have said was "Do you have any idea how many donations are a result of the national exposure a school gets due to it's athletic departments?"
I'd wager that the majority of donations a university receives are from successful alumni who want to give back to their alma mater. At least the ones that don't go directly to the athletic department's coffers.

I doubt many donations to University academic programs are based upon a school's football winnings.

Edited, Nov 14th 2011 7:45pm by Bardalicious
#78 Nov 14 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
This'd be a great segway

And an even better segue Smiley: wink2


Yeah, as I wrote that, somewhere in the back of my head I knew it was wrong. I think I use the word so infrequently that I let this spelling take over in my brain.

/sigh. Smiley: glare
#79 Nov 14 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Bardalicious wrote:
I doubt many donations to University academic programs are based upon a school's football winnings
You do live in America right? And you're on the internet, so you do use forms of media. Are you intentionally lying or just super naive?

You are aware of how much money the entrainment industry generates, yes?
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#80 Nov 14 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Uh huh. So saying that the issue is more complex than "this side==bad; that side==good" is now douchebaggery, and closed-minded? Ever consider you're the one with the closed mind in that you're unwilling to see any faults at all in a group you've decided to champion in some way?

Really, the fact that you need to divide it into "teams" (or try to make it about homosexuals) is pathological enough.


I didn't do this though. I responded to a post addressing the question as to whether attraction to children of the same sex is associated at all with homosexuality. While I'll fully admit to leading the argument a bit, I don't think it's a stretch to see the usual anti-gay suspects on one side of that argument, and the usual pro-gay suspects on the other. You also have to remember that I'd just finished skimming through Varus' link when I replied to the post in question, and there was a hell of a lot BS as well as a smattering of valid statements.


Put more simply, the fact that there are folks who oppose homosexuality on principle and will exaggerate their position, does not mean that every claim they make is wrong. The attempts by gay advocacy groups to distance homosexuality (especially male homosexuality) from molestation of boys by older men is a pretty clear attempt at PR and is pretty questionable in terms of honest evaluation of what's going on. And certainly when we're looking at a case like Sandusky, who targeted boys just barely pre-adolescent, this is less about generic attraction to children, and far more likely to be some form of displaced sexual (homosexual in this case) targeting, most likely deriving from some form of abuse he suffered when he was the same age.


I just jumped ahead a bit and played out the argument for *why* that happens from a broader sociological perspective and presented the two sides of that argument and attempted to play middle ground by saying that both bear some blame.


Quote:
Hint: everyone else was mocking Varus by talking about Republicans or whatever.


Yeah. I didn't say anything about political party's either Joph. That's the "I wont touch this with a 10 foot pole" bit I started out with. Again though, it doesn't invalidate some other aspects of the issue. And judging by the "hit a nerve" like response, I'd say I was justified to bring those other aspects up.
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#81 Nov 14 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: disappointed

Whatever. This would be like arguing with your racist uncle; not fruitful nor amusing. Have fun being... whatever.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#82 Nov 14 2011 at 9:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Whatever. This would be like arguing with your racist uncle; not fruitful nor amusing. Have fun being... whatever.


And by racist, you mean someone who argues that unfair discrimination against minority groups is wrong, but that those same minority groups using their minority status as a crutch for socio-political gain is wrong as well and that both groups represent part of the problem as it exists today. Because that's such a one sided and unfair assessment! Smiley: tongue


What I was trying to say (and perhaps didn't do a good job saying) was that the cycle of young/old gay sexual interaction is absolutely initially caused by anti-gay social pressures which cause teens to conceal their sexual orientation and be afraid to experiment with their peers as heterosexual teens do. This is why the percentage of gay men who's first sexual experience as a teen is abnormally more likely to be with an adult male instead of someone their own age when compared to heterosexual males (and females for that matter). But this is something the gay community doesn't like to talk about (for obvious reasons).

That cycle is very very similar to that of pre-teen boys and older men as well, and unfortunately the same mechanisms used to conceal the former also tend to conceal the latter (even if unintentionally). And the same social pressures apply as well. In the mind of someone like Sandusky, he's not doing anything more wrong than a gay man in his early 20s picking up a 15 year old runaway and introducing them to the lifestyle. It's just a matter of degrees unfortunately. Degrees that really ought to matter to us a hell of a lot, but because of the earlier mentioned tendency for data about sex with minors to be conflated for a variety of political reasons, we make it harder to pick out the truly problematic cases (like this one).


Put another way, the gay community's unwillingness to accept that there's any problem at all with their own actions and behaviors makes it easier for people like Sandusky to rationalize what they're doing *and* for others to possibly look the other way. And while I certainly heap a large helping of blame on the anti-gay social pressures out there which help such things along, we all know about those pressures already. Simply saying "those ***** haters really ought to stop making gay teens afraid to come out", while true, only addresses part of the problem and isn't really anything new. We can all sit around blaming one "side" of the issue, but that's not going to solve everything. Call me a glutton for punishment, but I look at the other aspects of the issue as well, and I'm going to point out the parts of the issue which most people don't look at. Because IMO we tend to over focus on the simple and easy positions to take, and a lot of times some equally important parts get lost in the discussion.
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#83 Nov 14 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, by "racist" I meant it was like arguing with someone so disgusting in their thoughts that it was neither amusing nor fruitful to have a discussion with them.

But apparently I "touched a nerve" so I guess you needed to hear it Smiley: rolleyes
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#84 Nov 14 2011 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
I doubt many donations to University academic programs are based upon a school's football winnings
You do live in America right? And you're on the internet, so you do use forms of media. Are you intentionally lying or just super naive?

You are aware of how much money the entrainment industry generates, yes?
Yes, but the money generated by the entertainment industry stays with the athletics department treasury, and does not suddenly jump over to the academic university's budget.
#85 Nov 14 2011 at 10:37 PM Rating: Default
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that sounds mighty anecdotal to me. Smiley: dubious
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#86 Nov 14 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
I'm not sure what you're after here. At my school the athletics department keeps its budget separate from the university.
Fair enough as it was poorly worded. What I should have said was "Do you have any idea how many donations are a result of the national exposure a school gets due to it's athletic departments?"

I'd just like to make a few points.

1. A lot of colleges do mix fees from students for tuition into the athletics departments.
2. Most athletic departments lose money.
3. It's hard to find data on how athletic departments affect donations, but one small study doesn't show significant results.
Quote:
When a male graduate's former team wins its conference championship, his donations for general purposes increase by about 7 percent and his donations to the athletic program increase by about the same percentage. Football and basketball records generally have small and statistically insignificant effects; in some specifications, a winning basketball season reduces donations. For women there is no statistically discernible effect of a former team's success on current giving; as is the case for men, the impacts of football and basketball, while statistically significant in some specifications, are not important in magnitude.


It seems fairly unlikely that many athletic departments earn their schools significant money in any form, and quite possible that they take away money from academic programs.

Edited, Nov 14th 2011 11:57pm by Allegory
#87 Nov 15 2011 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
It seems fairly unlikely that many athletic departments earn their schools significant money in any form, and quite possible that they take away money from academic programs.
Possible, but probably unlikely. Successful athletic departments also draw more students and sell more paraphernalia, like shirts, shorts, etc...
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#88 Nov 15 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The chain of cause/effect isn't simple, but it doesn't take a degree in psychology to realize that if someone already believes that his sexual desires are sinful/dirty/whatever, that this will increase his likelihood when acting on them to not make distinctions which he might otherwise. If having sex with another man is ok, but having sex with a child is wrong, he's more likely to satisfy himself with adult men and avoid children. But if both are "wrong", he's less likely to limit himself, right?


Jesus, man. Sometimes you say something so off-the-wall, I really do wonder if you're the forum's most successful troll. I am incredibly interested to see your scientific data that men who like men but don't admit it are more likely to rape children, as opposed to men (or women) who are attracted to children of either sex. From what you're saying here, it's clear that you believe (closeted) gays are more likely to be child rapists, which is almost exactly what varus said.
#89 Nov 15 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Except it's also the gay community's fault because they're pressuring everyone to be Hard Gay and poor souls like Sandusky* were too scared to come out and had to rape little boys instead!



*Of course, just saying he's a "homosexual" would make more sense if there was evidence of him even hitting on post-pubescent teens. He's just a pedophile and a child predator and it's fucking repulsive that people like Gbaji would use this to try and school us all on the giant gay conspiracy or whatever.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#90 Nov 15 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not gay conspiracy; Liberal conspiracy.
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#91 Nov 15 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji wrote:
Because IMO we tend to over focus on the simple and easy positions to take, and a lot of times some equally important parts get lost in the discussion.


Like the fact that pedophiles whom attack children of the same sex don't usually view themselves as gay & there's no correlation between homosexuals & pedophiles. Much like in prison, where only the victim is considered "gay"; even though the only person choosing to have homosexual sex is the attacker.
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#92 Nov 15 2011 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Not gay conspiracy; Liberal conspiracy.

Is there a difference?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#93 Nov 15 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Not gay conspiracy; Liberal conspiracy.
Is there a difference?
Gay conspiracy has more show tunes.
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#94 Nov 15 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
lolgaxe wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Not gay conspiracy; Liberal conspiracy.
Is there a difference?
Gay conspiracy has more show tunes.
This is a thread about Guys and Dolls now!
#95 Nov 15 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Not gay conspiracy; Liberal conspiracy.
Is there a difference?
Gay conspiracy has more show tunes.
This is a thread about Guys and Dolls now!

True story; the first time I visited Provincetown on Cape Cod, I saw a flyer for a musical called "Guys As Dolls."

Edit: I was too young at the time to get it, but my parents were amused when I asked what it was about.

Edited, Nov 15th 2011 9:27am by LockeColeMA
#96 Nov 15 2011 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Whatever. This would be like arguing with your racist uncle; not fruitful nor amusing. Have fun being... whatever.


And by racist, you mean someone who argues that unfair discrimination against minority groups is wrong, but that those same minority groups using their minority status as a crutch for socio-political gain is wrong as well and that both groups represent part of the problem as it exists today. Because that's such a one sided and unfair assessment! Smiley: tongue


What I was trying to say (and perhaps didn't do a good job saying) was that the cycle of young/old gay sexual interaction is absolutely initially caused by anti-gay social pressures which cause teens to conceal their sexual orientation and be afraid to experiment with their peers as heterosexual teens do. This is why the percentage of gay men who's first sexual experience as a teen is abnormally more likely to be with an adult male instead of someone their own age when compared to heterosexual males (and females for that matter). But this is something the gay community doesn't like to talk about (for obvious reasons).

That cycle is very very similar to that of pre-teen boys and older men as well, and unfortunately the same mechanisms used to conceal the former also tend to conceal the latter (even if unintentionally). And the same social pressures apply as well. In the mind of someone like Sandusky, he's not doing anything more wrong than a gay man in his early 20s picking up a 15 year old runaway and introducing them to the lifestyle. It's just a matter of degrees unfortunately. Degrees that really ought to matter to us a hell of a lot, but because of the earlier mentioned tendency for data about sex with minors to be conflated for a variety of political reasons, we make it harder to pick out the truly problematic cases (like this one).


Put another way, the gay community's unwillingness to accept that there's any problem at all with their own actions and behaviors makes it easier for people like Sandusky to rationalize what they're doing *and* for others to possibly look the other way. And while I certainly heap a large helping of blame on the anti-gay social pressures out there which help such things along, we all know about those pressures already. Simply saying "those ***** haters really ought to stop making gay teens afraid to come out", while true, only addresses part of the problem and isn't really anything new. We can all sit around blaming one "side" of the issue, but that's not going to solve everything. Call me a glutton for punishment, but I look at the other aspects of the issue as well, and I'm going to point out the parts of the issue which most people don't look at. Because IMO we tend to over focus on the simple and easy positions to take, and a lot of times some equally important parts get lost in the discussion.
So you're saying a man who is astute enough to coach a big10 football team doesn't understand that sex with kids is not only illegal but highly immoral.?

Furthermore the reason he doesn't understand it's wrong is because sex between two consenting adults of the same sex is ok? It's all same-sex sex after-all.

And I think you go on to say that the acceptance of a gay lifestyle excuses those who knew or suspected because, you know, if it's ok for a man to fuck a man it's probably ok for him to fuck a boy....or at least it's nobody's business but the boy-fuckers.

I, uh,.....Lol.

Do you ever read what you write?






Edited, Nov 15th 2011 3:30pm by Elinda
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#97 Nov 15 2011 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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the saddest thing (about this thread, not the situation) is the absolute certainty that Gbaji is going to double down and continue to spout his shit, saying "You guys just don't want to hear it!"
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#98 Nov 15 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Did anyone hear the interview Costas did with Sandusky? Positively creepy. The most damning part (to the best of my recollection):

Costas: "Are you sexually attracted to young boys?"

Sandusky: [long pause]

....

"Sexually attracted?"

....

"No, I'm not sexually attracted to them..."

Smiley: um
#99 Nov 15 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Ahh, Provincetown, home of my uncle.

This is his claim to fame.
#100 Nov 15 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Did anyone hear the interview Costas did with Sandusky? Positively creepy. The most damning part (to the best of my recollection):

Costas: "Are you sexually attracted to young boys?"

Sandusky: [long pause]

....

"Sexually attracted?"

....

"No, I'm not sexually attracted to them..."

Smiley: um

Yeah, I heard that part and had the same reaction. This guy is really scary.
#101 Nov 15 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Did anyone hear the interview Costas did with Sandusky? Positively creepy. The most damning part (to the best of my recollection):

Costas: "Are you sexually attracted to young boys?"

Sandusky: [long pause]

....

"Sexually attracted?"

....

"No, I'm not sexually attracted to them..."

Smiley: um

I just found it hilariously horrific that his autobiography is called "Touched."
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