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#152 Nov 09 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Too soon to suggest replacing every instance of chicken in this thread's recipes to aborted fetuses?
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#153 Nov 09 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Too many little bones and **** to deal with.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#154 Nov 09 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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#155 Nov 09 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am grateful that reason prevailed in this instance.

One thing that occurred to me is that it would cause a consitutional crisis right up front, whereas an embryo would be a person but not a citizen, since citizenship is granted at birth according to the Constitution.
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#156 Nov 09 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I am grateful that reason prevailed in this instance.

One thing that occurred to me is that it would cause a consitutional crisis right up front, whereas an embryo would be a person but not a citizen, since citizenship is granted at birth according to the Constitution.


I'm not sure how that causes a crisis. There are lots of people who live in the US, who are not citizens. Rights are granted to "persons". Certain privileges are granted to "citizens". Honestly, the bigger questions were those raised during the last couple weeks and revolve around questions of IVF, abortion (obviously), and probably most significantly, birth control methods.
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#157 Nov 09 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Until they're born they're illegal aliens, therefore the mothers (and fathers) are in violation of human trafficking laws.
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#158 Nov 09 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Until they're born they're illegal aliens, therefore the mothers (and fathers) are in violation of human trafficking laws.


Hah! That's more of a loophole in the law, and hardly represents a constitutional crisis. The constitution says nothing about how the law should deal with persons who are not citizens. I suspect that we could have managed a common sense solution to that problem.
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#159 Nov 09 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That's more of a loophole in the law, and hardly represents a constitutional crisis.
Actually I kind of just made it all up for a joke post. Smiley: blush

Only thing I can really think of (and admittedly I have next to zero experience with this and I don't really feel like thumbing through civilian and UCMJ law books) that would cause any snag would maybe be about immigration, and even then that might more be the small traces of alcohol in my system speaking.
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#160 Nov 09 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
That's more of a loophole in the law, and hardly represents a constitutional crisis.
Actually I kind of just made it all up for a joke post. Smiley: blush


Yeah. I figured that. But I honestly seem to recall someone actually seriously making that argument somewhere (no clue if it was on this forum or somewhere else though). When you mentioned it, I was like "Oh yeah! I've heard that one before...".
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#161 Nov 09 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Until they're born they're illegal aliens

This got me thinking about the alienhood quandry for xenomorphs. BEfore or after hatching? What about implantation versus chest-bursting?
#162 Nov 09 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
catwho wrote:
I am grateful that reason prevailed in this instance.

One thing that occurred to me is that it would cause a consitutional crisis right up front, whereas an embryo would be a person but not a citizen, since citizenship is granted at birth according to the Constitution.


I'm not sure how that causes a crisis. There are lots of people who live in the US, who are not citizens. Rights are granted to "persons". Certain privileges are granted to "citizens". Honestly, the bigger questions were those raised during the last couple weeks and revolve around questions of IVF, abortion (obviously), and probably most significantly, birth control methods.


They're not US citizens, but they're citizens somewhere. If an embryo is legally a person but not legally a citizen anywhere, they exist in "statelessness" - they don't belong to any country yet. How would it be represented in a court of law?
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#163 Nov 09 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
gbaji wrote:
catwho wrote:
I am grateful that reason prevailed in this instance.

One thing that occurred to me is that it would cause a consitutional crisis right up front, whereas an embryo would be a person but not a citizen, since citizenship is granted at birth according to the Constitution.


I'm not sure how that causes a crisis. There are lots of people who live in the US, who are not citizens. Rights are granted to "persons". Certain privileges are granted to "citizens". Honestly, the bigger questions were those raised during the last couple weeks and revolve around questions of IVF, abortion (obviously), and probably most significantly, birth control methods.


They're not US citizens, but they're citizens somewhere. If an embryo is legally a person but not legally a citizen anywhere, they exist in "statelessness" - they don't belong to any country yet. How would it be represented in a court of law?


When you think about it, this could actually HELP women abort fetuses. It's self defense against invasion. I mean, you wouldn't just let a Mexican live in your womb!

Abortion's the AMERICAN thing to do dammit!

USA! USA! USA!

Edited, Nov 9th 2011 11:24pm by idiggory
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#164 Nov 10 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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They're not US citizens, but they're citizens somewhere. If an embryo is legally a person but not legally a citizen anywhere, they exist in "statelessness" - they don't belong to any country yet. How would it be represented in a court of law?
We could just call them enemy combatants (it was kicking her stomach!) and do whatever we want with them behind closed doors. I wonder how you water board a fetus?

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 8:19am by Lubriderm
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#165 Nov 10 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
They're not US citizens, but they're citizens somewhere. If an embryo is legally a person but not legally a citizen anywhere, they exist in "statelessness" - they don't belong to any country yet. How would it be represented in a court of law?

I don't follow. You're not just allowed to go out and hunt illegal immigrants (except in AZ) on account of them not being citizens. Why do you think the things that would potentially affect a fetus (murder, negligence) wouldn't be chargeable offenses just because the victim was "stateless"? We're not discussing the fetus's right to vote or freedom of the press.
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#166 Nov 10 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
They're not US citizens, but they're citizens somewhere. If an embryo is legally a person but not legally a citizen anywhere, they exist in "statelessness" - they don't belong to any country yet. How would it be represented in a court of law?
I really can't think of any reason it would even be brought up, and I spent an unhealthy amount of time thinking about it, and seeing as it's never happened this is purely hypothetical but if someone figured out how to prosecute a fetus and it's citizenship were brought up I imagine they would use the mother's citizenship for the child or possibly a matter of dual citizenship based on both on the mother and father, but still favoring the mother's because that's just how it works out (courts always favor the mother). As an aside, it could also close the Anchor Baby loopholes, but it'd make a mess out of births from mothers still working on their citizenship. The question would pretty much be do the children get new citizenship status based on their birth locations or do they keep what they had as an embryo?
Allegory wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Until they're born they're illegal aliens
This got me thinking about the alienhood quandry for xenomorphs. BEfore or after hatching? What about implantation versus chest-bursting?
Seeing as how a xenomorph would most certainly be constitutionally regarded as a foreign existence to a human body (since it couldn't occur naturally Smiley: schooled), I'd imagine it'd be regarded as an illegal alien at the moment of conception, and the product of face rape so eligible for abortion.

Should I be concerned the xenomorph question is a lot more cut and dry than the human baby question?
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#167 Nov 10 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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The pro-choicers could definitely take the "embryo-person is a citizen of the soveriegn state of the mother's body and subject only to the laws defined by the country of Mother" argument and run with it.

In the meantime, the pro-lifers would hastily tack on an amendment that defined the embyro-person as a "pre-citizen" or something.

Edited, Nov 10th 2011 1:09pm by catwho
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#168 Nov 10 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
The pro-choicers could definitely take the "embryo-person is a citizen of the soveriegn state of the mother's body and subject only to the laws defined by the country of Mother" argument and run with it.

But that doesn't mean anything. You're subject to the laws of whichever nation you're standing on. Anyone born and walking around doesn't get to say to the US judicial system "I'm from Colombia so only Colombian laws apply to me!" so why do you think it would be different here?
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#169 Nov 10 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
The pro-choicers could definitely take the "embryo-person is a citizen of the soveriegn state of the mother's body and subject only to the laws defined by the country of Mother" argument and run with it.

In the meantime, the pro-lifers would hastily tack on an amendment that defined the embyro-person as a "pre-citizen" or something.


I'm not sure how seriously to take this...
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#170 Nov 10 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
But I honestly seem to recall someone actually seriously making that argument somewhere (no clue if it was on this forum or somewhere else though).


I think I remembered where I heard this now!
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#171 Nov 10 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But I honestly seem to recall someone actually seriously making that argument somewhere (no clue if it was on this forum or somewhere else though).


I think I remembered where I heard this now!


The News-oh wait, nvm.
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#172 Nov 11 2011 at 2:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
catwho wrote:
The pro-choicers could definitely take the "embryo-person is a citizen of the soveriegn state of the mother's body and subject only to the laws defined by the country of Mother" argument and run with it.

But that doesn't mean anything. You're subject to the laws of whichever nation you're standing on. Anyone born and walking around doesn't get to say to the US judicial system "I'm from Colombia so only Colombian laws apply to me!" so why do you think it would be different here?

Technically the embryo isn't standing. Smiley: schooled
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#173 Nov 11 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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#174 Nov 11 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: laugh
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#175 Nov 11 2011 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Point is, you're subject to the laws of, but not guaranteed all the rights of, whatever nation you're in, unless you are a citizen of the nation.

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Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#176 Nov 14 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Point is, you're subject to the laws of, but not guaranteed all the rights of, whatever nation you're in, unless you are a citizen of the nation.


If your point is to claim something that is absolutely false, then I suppose that can be your point. Smiley: grin

"The people" and "persons" have rights within a nation. This is abundantly clear to anyone who bothers to read the bill of rights and other amendments to the US constitution

Quote:

...the right of the people peaceably to assemble, ...

...right of the people to keep and bear arms...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects...

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless ... nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy ... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process...

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


That's just in the bill of rights, but what's probably the clearest case is the good ol 14th amendment:

Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.



The 14th amendment makes a clear distinction between being a "person" and being a "citizen". All citizens are persons, but not all persons are citizens. And for the record, citizenship is what's dependent on birth *not* personhood (so said law would not violate anything in the constitution).

Citizens have their "privileges and immunities" protected. Persons have their rights to "life, liberty, and property" and are promised "equal protection of the laws".

Persons have rights. Citizens have the same rights as persons, but they also have privileges and immunities. How you somehow managed to get that more or less completely backwards is somewhat mystifying.
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#177 Nov 14 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Awesome. Well seeing as a ball of cells isn't a person we can move on now can't we? Smiley: grin
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#178 Nov 15 2011 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Screenshot


Honestly, who can call this a person? Varus? Gbaji?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#179 Nov 15 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Screenshot


Honestly, who can call this a person? Varus? Gbaji?

That actually looks kinda cute. Look! It's sucking its proto-thumb!

Edited, Nov 15th 2011 8:58am by LockeColeMA
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#180 Nov 15 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
It's very cute, but I want someone to stand up and tell me it's a person.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#181 Nov 15 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whatever it is, it's time it started pulling its own weight and got a job.
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#182 Nov 15 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whatever it is, it's time it started pulling its own weight and got a job.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#183 Nov 15 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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It looks like a puppy.
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#184 Nov 15 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's very cute, but I want someone to stand up and tell me it's a person.

It's clearly got a spine so we know it's a chordate.
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#185 Nov 15 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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It still has webbed feet and a tail.

Every time someone wants to show me something like that, I always want to point out that it proves evolution since embryos of different species all share vestigal traits.
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#186 Nov 15 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't see a tail....
#187 Nov 16 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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It gets a bit more prominent in later Carnegie stages, before the rest of the backside resorbs it and turns it into a **** in a human fetus, or a real tail in other mammals.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#188 Nov 16 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Screenshot


Honestly, who can call this a person? Varus? Gbaji?
I barf'd
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#189 Nov 16 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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I used to have a fishbowl filled with those things. One was wearing a crown and another was playing the banjo.
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#190 Nov 16 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's very cute, but I want someone to stand up and tell me it's a person.


TBH my parenting instincts kicked in when I saw it, that was weird. Don't know if that means anything, it's a cute little bugger.
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#191 Nov 17 2011 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent

someproteinguy wrote:
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's very cute, but I want someone to stand up and tell me it's a person.


TBH my parenting instincts kicked in when I saw it, that was weird. Don't know if that means anything, it's a cute little bugger.
It means you will be a very good parent someday (of a Labrador).

It's a dog, I was hoping one of these 'embryos are persons' would take the bait. I failed. Smiley: frown
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#192 Nov 17 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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I used to have a fishbowl filled with those things. One was wearing a crown and another was playing the banjo.

That's a big fat lie. Sea Monkeys were one of my first big commercial disappointments. I'm pretty sure I ordered them from the ad in the back of a comic book.
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#193 Nov 17 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Why would you order Sea Monkeys from comic books when you could have ordered Squirrel Monkeys?
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#195 Nov 18 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's a dog, I was hoping one of these 'embryos are persons' would take the bait. I failed. Smiley: frown


Obvious ploy is obvious.
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#196 Nov 19 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
It's a dog, I was hoping one of these 'embryos are persons' would take the bait. I failed. Smiley: frown


Obvious ploy is obvious.
To you, maybe. I was hoping to snare a tard like varus.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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