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#52 Nov 03 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji that "study" doesn't count because I don't want it to.


Also there are other studies which say different, so your study definitely doesn't count.
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#53 Nov 03 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

And yet, I seem to have a better intuitive grasp of the effects of abortion on women than most people.

And I have first-hand experience with it.
#54 Nov 03 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm not so invested in a "side" of the argument to ignore the negatives and downfalls of any given position.
That's definitely a lie.
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#55 Nov 03 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But most people aren't willing to look at or even acknowledge data which opposes their starting assumptions,
The Article wrote:
The many studies that show a correlation between abortion, especially repeated abortions, and a reduction in women's economic well-being do not, for the most part, prove a clear causation.
I guess that part wasn't written in English.
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#56 Nov 03 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Quote:
Every time I see a pro-life billboard, I have to wonder how many people in a soup kitchen that $1000 would have fed.

Why don't you wonder the same thing when you see *any* billboard. Seems like an unfair assessment to me.

Most billboards aren't moralizing at me.


There's that fuzzy logic I love! What does that have to do with the fact that the money spent for those billboards could have instead been spent to feed people in a soup kitchen? Hint: The answer is "nothing".
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#57 Nov 03 2011 at 7:06 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But most people aren't willing to look at or even acknowledge data which opposes their starting assumptions,
The Article wrote:
The many studies that show a correlation between abortion, especially repeated abortions, and a reduction in women's economic well-being do not, for the most part, prove a clear causation.
I guess that part wasn't written in English.


But the whole section was:

Quote:
The many studies that show a correlation between abortion, especially repeated abortions, and a reduction in women's economic well-being do not, for the most part, prove a clear causation. While anecdotal evidence may support the contention that abortion increases the breakup of relationships, psychological difficulties, and substance abuse, the argument can be and has been made that the causation is in the other direction. Those women inclined toward multiple abortions are also inclined to have these problems. More precisely, the same thing that is causing these women to have these problems may also be causing the multiple abortions. It is not that the abortions cause the difficulties, but that problems with unhealthy sexual relations with men, domestic violence, and similar challenges may cause both the abortions and the subsequent problems that are correlated with them. This argument is frequently used by abortion counselors and promoters.

However, another causal factor must be taken into account: to what extent does the ready accessibility of abortion cause the problems of exploitational sexual attitudes and self-righteous denials of responsibility by men? To what extent does the presence of the abortion clinic itself exacerbate the problems that cause both the abortions and the subsequent psychological difficulties?

In any event, the very least that can be said from this evidence is that repeated abortion is not therapeutic. The repeated utilization of abortion does not appear to lead to economic prosperity or social well-being. The argument that abortion accessibility is necessary to help eradicate poverty cannot be maintained in the face of the evidence.

More probably, the practice of abortion is leading to greater impoverishment of women. Abortion is a practice aimed at women, and therefore any impoverishing effects as described above would disproportionately impact on women. When we know that current trends involve a "feminization of poverty," any possible factor that exacerbates the problem should be examined. There is ample evidence to suggest that the widespread use of abortion is such a factor, which should, despite political ideologies, receive greater scrutiny.



That would require that you read more than a single sentence out of context though! Smiley: schooled
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#58 Nov 03 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Default
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Nilatai wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not so invested in a "side" of the argument to ignore the negatives and downfalls of any given position.
That's definitely a lie.


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm pro-life. Smiley: lol Smiley: lol Smiley: lol


I'm not rabidly pro-choice. There is a difference.
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#59 Nov 03 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That would require that you read more than a single sentence out of context though!
Oh so now you're arguing that the abortions aren't necessarily the problem and there's actually no evidence saying they are. Or did you mean the context you read into but the text you provided didn't actually say? That pesky English!
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#60 Nov 03 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

And yet, I seem to have a better intuitive grasp of the effects of abortion on women than most people.


Smiley: lol

gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not so invested in a "side" of the argument to ignore the negatives and downfalls of any given position.
That's definitely a lie.


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm pro-life. Smiley: lol Smiley: lol Smiley: lol


I'm not rabidly pro-choice. There is a difference.


There is a difference. You do not personify it.
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#61 Nov 03 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In any event, the very least that can be said from this evidence is that repeated abortion is not therapeutic. The repeated utilization of abortion does not appear to lead to economic prosperity or social well-being. The argument that abortion accessibility is necessary to help eradicate poverty cannot be maintained in the face of the evidence.


lolgaxe wrote:
Oh so now you're arguing that the abortions aren't necessarily the problem and there's actually no evidence saying they are. Or did you mean the context you read into but the text you provided didn't actually say? That pesky English!



Um... You apparently forgot what I was arguing:

Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
most women who get abortions are *not* going to take advantage of that life altering move to put themselves on the right track. Most of them are instead going to continue making the same mistakes.


And you know this because...?



Do you see how the statistics for repeat abortions *and* the associated problems with relationships, drugs, drinking, and poverty, bear out my statement regardless of whether there's a causative relationship or not. Clearly "most women" who have abortions do not fit the rosy image we're often sold of a woman who, if only she could terminate that pregnancy, could then get right on with her successful and fulfilling life. The common argument for increasingly available abortions is that not having one will have some horrible effect on the woman's life. But if the current statistics of women who've had abortions is any indication, it's hard to imagine that their lives could be much worse.


And that's if we assume there is no causative relationship. If there is, then those statistics show a horrible cost to women for having easy access to abortion.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 6:18pm by gbaji
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#62 Nov 03 2011 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Um... You apparently forgot what I was arguing:
This is kind of like when it was pointed out you read a chart completely wrong (And not just slightly: Completely wrong), but it took you four or five posts until you even entertained the idea that maybe you were the one that made the mistake. I must have forgotten what you're arguing, it couldn't possibly be an inconsistency in your brilliant argument. After all, you're not an expert.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2011 9:26pm by lolgaxe
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#63 Nov 03 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm not so invested in a "side" of the argument to ignore the negatives and downfalls of any given position.
That's definitely a lie.


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm pro-life. Smiley: lol Smiley: lol Smiley: lol

Must be those things you wrote confusing me. Smiley: oyvey


Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.

You seem to think you're clever by playing devils advocate all the time. You're not, it just makes you wishy washy and annoying.
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#64 Nov 03 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?
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#65 Nov 03 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?

That is, excluding all medical reasons. I'm talking about elective terminations.
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#66 Nov 03 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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See, poverty stricken women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions. They should have to give birth to those 12 kids. That'll fix that poverty!
#67 Nov 03 2011 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

Just stop.
#68 Nov 03 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
Nilatai wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?


Not having an opinion. Smiley: schooled
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#69 Nov 03 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know, if these poverty-stricken women that are having abortions had had some form of sexual education and access to birth control, there wouldn't be as many abortions.
#70 Nov 03 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?


Not having an opinion. Smiley: schooled

Sure, but gbaji definitely has an opinion. Smiley: tongue
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#71 Nov 03 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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#72 Nov 03 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
I also support a woman's right to have a Falcon Punch, should she so desire.

But that would hurt. Smiley: frown
#73 Nov 03 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
I also support a woman's right to have a Falcon Punch, should she so desire.
I'm so supportive, I'll Falcon Punch even if she doesn't desire it.

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#74 Nov 03 2011 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?


Not having an opinion. Smiley: schooled

Sure, but gbaji definitely has an opinion. Smiley: tongue


If you think that abortion is only acceptable because the fetus is not a person, but that it will attain personhood at some point before birth, then you'll be pro-life respect to optional termination in one case and pro-choice in another.

Of course, you might also supplement that by suggesting that late-term abortions are still acceptable as long as sufficient steps are taken to save the fetus if possible (2-3 months is certainly possible, if it has developed properly).

If you think that abortion is acceptable because the mother has the right to say what goes on with her body, which includes giving her the right to decide who or what uses her body and it what capacity, then you'll likely be pro-choice for all elective terminations. Though you could still oppose late-term abortions, if you think that there IS a moral obligation there when talking about short time frames.

Or you might suggest that this only holds for unintentional pregnancies, but intentional ones necessarily include you giving the fetus legal right to use your body.

Etc.

But if we are going to limit the discussion to the elective termination of early (1st or 2nd trimester) unintentional pregnancies, then I'd say that it probably is a binary issue.
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#75 Nov 03 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What does that have to do with the fact that the money spent for those billboards could have instead been spent to feed people in a soup kitchen?

It's being preachy and judgmental at me and I'm being preachy and judgmental right back Smiley: smile
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#76 Nov 03 2011 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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Do you see how the statistics for repeat abortions *and* the associated problems with relationships, drugs, drinking, and poverty, bear out my statement regardless of whether there's a causative relationship or not. Clearly "most women" who have abortions do not fit the rosy image we're often sold of a woman who, if only she could terminate that pregnancy, could then get right on with her successful and fulfilling life. The common argument for increasingly available abortions is that not having one will have some horrible effect on the woman's life. But if the current statistics of women who've had abortions is any indication, it's hard to imagine that their lives could be much worse.


And that's if we assume there is no causative relationship. If there is, then those statistics show a horrible cost to women for having easy access to abortion.


The choice isn't, shouldn't be, & hopefully will never be yours to make, dick. I thought you were for small government? Why the hell should the government tell a woman she CAN'T get an abortion?
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#77 Nov 04 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?
The middle ground is not paying for someone else to get an abortion. I'm pro-choice, but I'm against it being covered by government funding. It's elective. I'd support some government funding in cases like rape victims and maybe a few select other scenarios, but by and large, if you want an abortion, it should be solely funded by you.
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#78 Nov 04 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

In what way is this not polarised? You either support a woman's right to have an abortion, or you think it should be illegal. Where, exactly, is the middle ground?
The middle ground is not paying for someone else to get an abortion. I'm pro-choice, but I'm against it being covered by government funding. It's elective. I'd support some government funding in cases like rape victims and maybe a few select other scenarios, but by and large, if you want an abortion, it should be solely funded by you.

Fair enough. I personally would expand the category of who gets a "freebie", but I more or less agree with you.
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#79 Nov 04 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Fair enough. I personally would expand the category of who gets a "freebie", but I more or less agree with you.
That would be why I left in the "few select other scenarios" as rape was the only one that came to mind, but I know there'd be others I'd be sympathetic to. The point is that I'm not for blanket coverage.


Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

Just stop.
It's foreplay. Nilati knows I'm going to insult him in some way before discussing things with him.

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#80 Nov 04 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fair enough. I personally would expand the category of who gets a "freebie", but I more or less agree with you.
That would be why I left in the "few select other scenarios" as rape was the only one that came to mind, but I know there'd be others I'd be sympathetic to. The point is that I'm not for blanket coverage.
No reasonable person would be, that's why I added my addendum to my last post. Clarifying that I wasn't in support of terminations for the full term.


Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Fact is it's a polarised argument, gbaji. You have to be one or the other.
Do you have to work at being this stupid?

Just stop.
It's foreplay. Nilatai knows I'm going to insult him in some way before discussing things with him.


Smiley: inlove
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#81 Nov 04 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Medical necessity" is my big one, and even then, the decision needs to be made by the woman and her doctor. Ectopic pregnancies are a classic case - there has only been one documented case in all of history of a woman not only surviving an untreated ectopic pregnancy but also giving birth to a healthy baby. 99.99999% of the time an untreated ectopic pregnancy leads to a miscarriage, and 99.9999% of those times, the death of the mother as well. (BBC calls the odds of survival one in a million.)
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#82 Nov 04 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Abortion?

Sometime I wonder why men think they are entitled to an opinion on something that is predominately a girly issue anyway. Smiley: rolleyes
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#83 Nov 04 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sometime I wonder why men think they are entitled to an opinion on something that is predominately a girly issue anyway. Smiley: rolleyes

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#84 Nov 04 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Sometime I wonder why men think they are entitled to an opinion on something that is predominately a girly issue anyway. Smiley: rolleyes

Did you think babies come from the cabbage patch?


They don't? Smiley: dubious

*shrugs*

Can't say kids have affected my life nearly as much as my wife's. I still have the same job, same hours, and such. If she said she wanted to have an abortion instead of another kid I don't think I could/should stand in her way as she's shouldered more of the load up to this point.
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#85 Nov 04 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Can we make this thread about lasagna too?
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someproteinguy wrote:
If she said she wanted to have an abortion instead of another kid I don't think I could/should stand in her way as she's shouldered more of the load up to this point.

I agree and use that as the same argument against the "Well, both parties should have to agree for her to have an abortion" arguments. I do think that abortion as a general issue is something for the whole of society to decide on though.

More pragmatically, the bulk of the nation's lawmakers are male and about half of the voting population is male so I've always thought the "You guys don't get an opinion" argument was a stupid and counterproductive one anyway if women actually want their opinion supported.
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#87 Nov 04 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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I've always believed their opinion should be considered but the final decision goes to the one that has the extra human being in her stomach for the majority of a year.
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#88 Nov 04 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I've always believed their opinion should be considered but the final decision goes to the one that has the extra human being in her stomach for the majority of a year.


And, very likely, the majority of the next eighteen.
#89 Nov 04 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
I've always believed their opinion should be considered but the final decision goes to the one that has the extra human being in her stomach for the majority of a year.


This. I wish the burden could be shared more, but until men grow wombs that can't happen.
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#90 Nov 04 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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So the solution to the abortion debate (at least this part of it) is create an artificial womb where men who really want to have a baby when the wife doesn't want to can gestate it instead? Sort of like a seahorse.
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Do seahorses practice abortion?
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#92 Nov 04 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
So the solution to the abortion debate (at least this part of it) is create an artificial womb where men who really want to have a baby when the wife doesn't want to can gestate it instead? Sort of like a seahorse.


Screenshot


Nothing is inconceivable


Edited, Nov 4th 2011 12:05pm by stupidmonkey
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#93 Nov 04 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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As the saying goes, if men were the ones that got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
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#94 Nov 04 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Nothing is inconceivable
Schwarzenegger's acting career certainly is.
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#95 Nov 04 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:


Nothing is inconceivable

Icwattheydidthar.
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WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

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ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#96 Nov 04 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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EDIT: Reading comprehension fails

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 2:01pm by stupidmonkey
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#97 Nov 04 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#98 Nov 04 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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At the risk of distracting this from a potential lasagna thread:

Omegavegeta wrote:
The choice isn't, shouldn't be, & hopefully will never be yours to make, dick. I thought you were for small government? Why the hell should the government tell a woman she CAN'T get an abortion?


Um... For the same reason why the government can tell anyone that they can't steal my car? Unless you take the absolute position that a fetus has zero rights at all until the moment of birth, then the issue of competing rights comes into play. And, as I have explained numerous times, the government can (and must) intervene to decide how those competing rights cases should be resolved. In the same way that a thief's right to be unhindered in his acquisition of property is countered by my right not to have my property taken from me, a womans right to control her body can be countered by a fetus's right to live.


Unless, of course, you believe that a fetus has zero right to live at any point during a pregnancy. Which, while a valid position, is an incredibly unpopular one, especially in the US. Hell, Roe v. Wade doesn't go that far. No federal level politician that I can think of would *ever* argue for elective abortion to the moment of birth (and if he did, he could kiss his career good bye). What I'm saying isn't radical, it's mainstream. It just seems like some people are so caught up with "picking a side" that they don't see that the realistic answers to this issue lie in the middle.

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 3:59pm by gbaji
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#99 Nov 04 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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a womans right to control her body can be countered by a fetus's right to live.


Right, a fetus. Obviously an embryo has no rights. Glad you came around to the winning team.
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#100 Nov 04 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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God damn it gbaji stop replying to other threads and tell me what rights you have as a US citizen that I do not as a Brit. Yes, cross thread shenanigans but I really want to know.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#101 Nov 04 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Do seahorses practice abortion?


No, but the males do the gestation while the females hit the bars and avoid child support.

Edited, Nov 4th 2011 6:33pm by Belkira
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