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I Totally Support the Occupy Movement...Follow

#52 Oct 17 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Yup. Are you looking at the same crowds I am?

Are you?

Are these all high school students?

That was from the first page of image results. Thanks for proving my point for me, though.


I seem to recall it was my point that the folks with the glossy signs are mostly union and organized liberal political groups showing up to co-opt the crowd. Strange that you ignored this one, and this one, and this one, and this one (definitely a student), and this one, and this one, and this one.

Those are also from the first page I linked. While there are some older people, the overwhelming majority of the folks there, and certainly of the most outspoken folks there, are young students.

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Which isn't to say that youth doesn't make up a percentage of the protests and probably makes up a majority of the tent dwellers (hard to live in a tent when you have kids at home) but do they make up a majority of the protesters at large or a majority of the movement? You'll have to do better than pointing at some select photos of youth acting goofy (and thus photo-worthy) to make that point.


But it's that "youth acting goofy" that is calling attention to the movement in the first place. And it's that attention that is now attracting the more mainstream liberal groups and getting them to show up and pretend that their message is the same as the youth's message (co-opting it). That's the point I was making. The kids are being used at this point. We'll see how long it takes them to realize this and become disillusioned.
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#53 Oct 17 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Yeah not protesting about the richest 1% taking more and more and more and morehitting yourself on the head with a shovel has sure produced a lot of jobs... yep. That's why the unemployment rate in the US is... what?


Do you see the flaw in your logic?

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 5:04pm by gbaji
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#54 Oct 17 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I seem to recall it was my point that the folks with the glossy signs are mostly union and organized liberal political groups showing up to co-opt the crowd. Strange that you ignored this one, and this one, and this one, and this one (definitely a student), and this one, and this one, and this one.

You mean it's weird that I picked mainly large crowd shots and you picked mainly small group shots?

Yeah... how weird!

But of course everyone who isn't a kid HAS to be some union guy! And, besides, we all know the opinion of unions members don't matter anyway!

Smiley: laughSmiley: rolleyes
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#55 Oct 17 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
You mean it's weird that I picked mainly large crowd shots and you picked mainly small group shots?


this, is a small group shot and not of a "crowd"? this one, is no smaller a crowd than some of your photos. You're cherry picking a relatively small number of the more recent photos, which are organized by more mainstream political groups. Heck, the second link in your list is specifically of a union group supporting the occupy movement. Gee, I can't imagine why they're all older (and carrying uniform printed glossy signs).

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Yeah... how weird!


Yup. Strange that exactly the sort of "their actions will be used to support other people's agendas", which I talked about in the very first thread on this subject is what's happening. Shocking!

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But of course everyone who isn't a kid HAS to be some union guy!


Lol! So the caption with the photo and news story about unions getting involved wasn't a tip off for you?"


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And, besides, we all know the opinion of unions members don't matter anyway!


When someone's claiming that the spontaneous and "grassroots" elements of this movement appeal to a broad range of people and then support that with pictures of rank and file union members, it does somewhat weaken the argument. Or did you lose track of the conversation somewhere along the way?

If it were a group of union members marching about raising taxes on wall street, no one would pay them any (much) mind. What's "special" about this is the young people "getting involved" and camping out, and supposedly *not* being part of existing political organizations. My point is that the independent and grassroots elements of this have not been able to come up with any sort of coherent message or agenda (unlike the Tea Party), but a number of established liberal organizations are now showing up to give them that agenda instead.
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#56 Oct 17 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

Do you see the flaw in your logic?


You pointed out no flaw, you simply restated the tired ideology you always resort to when talking about a more equal redistribution of wealth. Warren Buffet thinks you're wrong too.

Warrent Buffet, a man who actually employs people wrote:
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.


Edited, Oct 17th 2011 6:07pm by Olorinus
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#57 Oct 17 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Yeah not protesting about the richest 1% taking more and more and more and morehitting yourself on the head with a shovel has sure produced a lot of jobs... yep. That's why the unemployment rate in the US is... what?


Do you see the flaw in your logic?

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 5:04pm by gbaji


I've never seen you lose an argument so hard. Smiley: oyvey
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#58 Oct 17 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
this, is a small group shot and not of a "crowd"? this one, is no smaller a crowd than some of your photos.

So two out of seven?

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You're cherry picking a relatively small number of the more recent photos

lolirony

I was picking crowd shots that were clear enough to identify the people. You mainly posted smaller group shots or single people.

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So the caption with the photo and news story about unions getting involved wasn't a tip off for you?

You mean the one picture? Wow. And, again, we have to make sure to insist that they don't count. After all, union members never get laid off or upset about Wall Street and they sure never worked or had homes or families or real life responsibility. If we can discount everyone who doesn't fit our No True Scotsman fallacy of OWS being all kids, we can pretend we were right! Hooray!

Was this supposed to be your evidence that it's all kids and young slackers? You're doing a bang-up job of repeating what you've been told to say but not such a great job of backing it up. Don't worry, someone will tell you what else to say tomorrow on the radio.
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#59 Oct 17 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Do you see the flaw in your logic?


You pointed out no flaw...


Really? So you think that "since I didn't do X and something bad happened, then doing X must be the solution!" is logically sound? You do realize that every single thing that wasn't done would have exactly the same weight. We didn't start a thermonuclear war and the economy went into the toilet, so clearly the solution to our problem is to start launching those nukes, right? And we didn't launch a mission to mars, so therefore if we do launch one, it'll fix our economy.

There's literally (and yes, I mean literally) an infinite set of things we "didn't do". It's a pretty stupid justification.

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...you simply restated the tired ideology you always resort to when talking about a more equal redistribution of wealth. Warren Buffet thinks you're wrong too.


I was talking about the terrible logic being used. It would be wrong even if we were talking about who won last years superbowl. I didn't jump up and down while singing "I'm King Henry the Eighth I am!" during the last superbowl and my favorite team lost, therefore if I do sing that, my favorite team will win!

That's the flaw in the logic. It's flawed no matter what action you are recommending or what problem you think you'll solve. You're allowing your own investment in the specifics blind you into accepting absolutely horrible arguments in support of actions you already agree with.
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#60 Oct 17 2011 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

We didn't start a thermonuclear war and the economy went into the toilet, so clearly the solution to our problem is to start launching those nukes, right?


Actually, wait a moment...a thermonuclear war might solve income inequality but not in a way any of us probably want.

Oh wait, you haven't realized that people are not protesting the economy - they are protesting income inequality.

If you want to accuse me of magical thinking, go ahead and do so, but please, make a cogent case-

I consider this to be magical thinking - a pastor who tells people Jesus wants them to own a house - and if you're a good christian he will give you the money to pay for it (and sells sub prime mortgages on every day but Sunday)

That man sold magical thinking to gullable people - he is the problem - not youth hoping for a chance to go to school without having to enslave themselves or their parents in debt.

I don't think it is magical thinking to guess that 1% of the world's people having most of the wealth is probably the source of a great deal of poverty. But money is infinite right? Why don't we just run reality like the final fantasy XI test server - everyone with max gil?

The reason is because the earth actually does have limits. There is a finite amount of everything on earth - land, water, metals, oil - etc. We don't live in some magic land of infinites - which is why you and your ******* economy are nothing but a bad dream in a world with the potential to become a nightmare.



Edited, Oct 17th 2011 7:34pm by Olorinus
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#61 Oct 17 2011 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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There's literally (and yes, I mean literally) an infinite set of things we "didn't do". It's a pretty stupid justification.


Actually, the set is near infinite, as there is some set of things in the set of "things we did do" that when added to the set of "things we did not do (unbounded" create the infinite set of "things that we could have done (unbounded)" So you are still literally incorrect about using the term literally correctly.

I am technically correct, which is the best kind.
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#62 Oct 18 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Which are, for the most part, the very parts of Dem fiscal policies the public has been condemning for the last couple years as largely to blame for the very financial mess we're in. People don't want more wealth redistribution and more government in private business. They want less of it.


No, 'people' don't want less of it, you want less of it. And wealth redistribution has already been going on, albeit in the opposite direction these 'socialists' are calling for.
Most Americans, at least according to recent polls, support slightly higher tax rates (from what they are now) for the top earners, including higher capital gains taxes and taxing dividends more. According to Hannity, Rush, Beck, Savage, [Insert Analog Here] that constitutes 'redistribution of wealth.'
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#63 Oct 18 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Excellent
G-Unit wrote:
Really? So you think that "since I didn't do X and something bad happened, then doing X must be the solution!" is logically sound? You do realize that every single thing that wasn't done would have exactly the same weight. We didn't start a thermonuclear war and the economy went into the toilet, so clearly the solution to our problem is to start launching those nukes, right? And we didn't launch a mission to mars, so therefore if we do launch one, it'll fix our economy.
She didn't just say 'We didn't X and Y didn't happen' she first said 'We did -X and Y happened, the we did X and Y didn't happen.' You totally twisted what she was saying there.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#64 Oct 18 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't shave my cat and gbaji is still posting, dammit!
#65 Oct 18 2011 at 6:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Nadenu wrote:
I didn't shave my cat and gbaji is still posting, dammit!
I hope you do a little trimming at least.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#66 Oct 18 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
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There's literally (and yes, I mean literally) an infinite set of things we "didn't do". It's a pretty stupid justification.


Actually, the set is near infinite, as there is some set of things in the set of "things we did do" that when added to the set of "things we did not do (unbounded" create the infinite set of "things that we could have done (unbounded)" So you are still literally incorrect about using the term literally correctly.

I am technically correct, which is the best kind.

So, you came up with a way to measure the depths of human imagination? Better patent that sh:t and become one of the 1% quick before the ghost of Steve Jobs comes back to steal it for Siri Jr.
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#67 Oct 18 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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The iMagination.
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#68 Oct 18 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#69 Oct 18 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
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There's literally (and yes, I mean literally) an infinite set of things we "didn't do". It's a pretty stupid justification.


Actually, the set is near infinite, as there is some set of things in the set of "things we did do" that when added to the set of "things we did not do (unbounded" create the infinite set of "things that we could have done (unbounded)" So you are still literally incorrect about using the term literally correctly.

I am technically correct, which is the best kind.

So, you came up with a way to measure the depths of human imagination? Better patent that sh:t and become one of the 1% quick before the ghost of Steve Jobs comes back to steal it for Siri Jr.


Patent office declined it because it was "Too broad" and for "prior art".
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#70 Oct 18 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think anywhere near 99% of Americans think these people speak for them. Do you?


The majority of people can't take a day off work to voice their opinions let alone sit in a park for weeks voicing their outrage. The majority of people work to live and live to work, they clock in and out and still play catch up on bills, and expenses that increase everyday.

It costs me 100 bucks a week just to get to work that is a whole day of work gone just so I can get to work.

At least I don't have to worry about health care concerns here, but you are acting pretty naive if you think just because the people who have the time are the only ones ****** off you are out to lunch, I would love to sit in a park, and sing kumbaya and yell at the man.

Unfortunately I can't, because I have to work. So I can live.

I applaud the young kids who are voicing their opinions on be half of me and my neighbors, I am glad that those that have the time to do so are using it in this manner instead of sitting at home doing nothing.

It must be nice to live in a detached reality Gbaji.
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#71 Oct 18 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
It costs me 100 bucks a week just to get to work that is a whole day of work gone just so I can get to work.
That just means you have a really sh:tty job and should probably try and make your life better.

Or end it.

I gotta tell you, I'm ambivalent.
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#72 Oct 18 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
It costs me 100 bucks a week just to get to work that is a whole day of work gone just so I can get to work.
That just means you have a really sh:tty job and should probably try and make your life better.

Or end it.

I gotta tell you, I'm ambivalent.


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#73 Oct 18 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Which isn't to say that youth doesn't make up a percentage of the protests and probably makes up a majority of the tent dwellers (hard to live in a tent when you have kids at home) but do they make up a majority of the protesters at large or a majority of the movement? You'll have to do better than pointing at some select photos of youth acting goofy (and thus photo-worthy) to make that point.


The first day of protests here drew a pretty diverse group. Parents brought kids, grandparents and retirees, young people etc. Things went smoothly for a crowd of around 6,000 people.

Then Monday came and most people went back to their normal life. Now we have a small group of mostly unemployed college-age kids hanging out in the park and camping with the homeless people.
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#74 Oct 18 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Which isn't to say that youth doesn't make up a percentage of the protests and probably makes up a majority of the tent dwellers (hard to live in a tent when you have kids at home) but do they make up a majority of the protesters at large or a majority of the movement? You'll have to do better than pointing at some select photos of youth acting goofy (and thus photo-worthy) to make that point.


The first day of protests here drew a pretty diverse group. Parents brought kids, grandparents and retirees, young people etc. Things went smoothly for a crowd of around 6,000 people.

Then Monday came and most people went back to their normal life. Now we have a small group of mostly unemployed college-age kids hanging out in the park and camping with the homeless people.


My roommate was there friday, after she had a conference at the UN. She was worried that she'd be out of place because of her attire, but she said that wasn't the case at all. There are a ton of people who go hang out there after work everyday, precisely because they can't afford to take off but still support the cause. What she reported was seeing a significant population from a variety of groups.

And that's only talking about dress--she also reported seeing a significant population from several age groups. I've heard the same from people who are at the protest in the middle of the day.
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#75varusword75, Posted: Oct 18 2011 at 10:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) loob,
#76 Oct 18 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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