/shrug
Joph's perfect world aside, it's the school who gets sued if the kid gets beat up for wearing the shirt. And they get sued for asking him to remove it. And they get sued for taking action against anyone offended by the shirt prior to physical violence (which would trigger the suit in the earlier case). They're kinda screwed no matter how they go, aren't they?
As I've been trying to get across, the content of the message on the shirt is somewhat irrelevant (or should be). Most schools follow a policy that if someone finds a message on something worn by a student offensive, they ask the wearer of the message to remove it. It's the least onerous of a set of paths that all have potential negatives. And yeah, it's always going to result in a lawsuit, and the school is always going to lose. This is not new in any way at all.
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Teen Alleges Bullying from Principle for being an AllyFollow
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
It's a cop out to blame clothes when we need to be teaching tolerance.
How much tolerance is required though? Where do you draw the line? I assume you mean that tolerance should be for any message any student might have on a T-shirt? So a shirt saying "n*gg*ers must die!" should be tolerated? If you're not willing to argue that such a shirt should be allowed on a public school campus, then you have to acknowledge that it's not as simple as just saying we should teach kids tolerance.
It's more complicated than that.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
So it's better to allow the kid to martyr himself than to teach him that sometimes it's just not the proper time or place?
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
So it's better to allow the kid to martyr himself than to teach him that sometimes it's just not the proper time or place?
Wearing a shirt to school to promote a club you want to establish at school is not the proper time or place...?
So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?
Donate. One day it could be your family.
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
So it's better to allow the kid to martyr himself than to teach him that sometimes it's just not the proper time or place?
Wearing a shirt to school to promote a club you want to establish at school is not the proper time or place...?
So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?
A time and place that isn't going to potentially result in him being beaten to a pulp?
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
So it's better to allow the kid to martyr himself than to teach him that sometimes it's just not the proper time or place?
Wearing a shirt to school to promote a club you want to establish at school is not the proper time or place...?
So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?
A time and place that isn't going to potentially result in him being beaten to a pulp?
So we should start teaching our children to run and hide instead of speaking out for themselves and others.
Excellent...
Jophiel wrote:
Maybe you can think of an example I'd disagree with but I'd worry more about those getting hostile over inclusion than those who want to include.
Rapists' rights?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
gbaji wrote:
How much tolerance is required though? Where do you draw the line? I assume you mean that tolerance should be for any message any student might have on a T-shirt? So a shirt saying "n*gg*ers must die!" should be tolerated? If you're not willing to argue that such a shirt should be allowed on a public school campus, then you have to acknowledge that it's not as simple as just saying we should teach kids tolerance.
It's more complicated than that.
Who taught you how to argue, Varus?
I'm pretty sure "Freedom of Speech" doesn't cover harassment or abuse. There's a very subtle difference between "Proud To Be Gay" and "N*gg*ers Must Die". Let's see if you can find it.
Hint: One is abusive, hateful, and can incite terror in certain groups of people. I'll let you guess which one that is.
lolgaxe wrote:
Sure, unless the message of inclusion is going to create a hostile environment.
Except that this kid and his sister are living in a hostile environment regardless of whether or not he wears the shirt. What he's trying to do is get his school to step up and make an effort to protect their rights, which they haven't attempted to do at all.
Forcing kids to avoid fighting for issues that matter just makes things worse for the party they are trying to protect.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
gbaji wrote:
Assuming you were responding to my earlier post, in both cases the speech is about inclusion of a group at school.
You didn't seriously just miss the point like that.
Quote:
I just think that you're walking on a slippery slope when you start limiting speech based not on the words actually spoken, but whether you don't like something the words refer to.
I think you're making up stuff that doesn't exist. I think the idea of "White Student Unions" is asinine but, provided the school required them to accept "allies" (i.e. any non-white student who wanted to join), I wouldn't be against someone wearing a shirt advocating for it. The KKK, on the other hand, is not an inclusive organization. You know this and you're just making yourself look stupid by trying to draw an equivalency between it and your standard "GLBY & Allies" organization.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
So we should start teaching our children to run and hide instead of speaking out for themselves and others.
No. And the student is free to wear said shirt on their own time when he's the only one responsible for the results. The second the school is responsible for the health of the student, they get to take some authority in terms of limiting said students actions. Obviously, I have no clue of the actual motivations of the principle of this school with regards to the proposed GSA. But that's somewhat irrelevant to the question of the wearing of said t-shirt at school IMO.
I think by far the more important thing to look into is whether there was some form of discrimination in play with regards to the proposed student group. The t-shirt issue really shouldn't be that big a deal.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
So it's better to allow the kid to martyr himself than to teach him that sometimes it's just not the proper time or place?
Wearing a shirt to school to promote a club you want to establish at school is not the proper time or place...?
So, in this situation, what is the proper time and place?
A time and place that isn't going to potentially result in him being beaten to a pulp?
So we should start teaching our children to run and hide instead of speaking out for themselves and others.
Excellent...
Yes, because speaking out while in a hostile environment, resulting in hostility towards anyone speaking out, is going to make everyone want to run out and join him. Great idea.
gbaji wrote:
Joph's perfect world aside, it's the school who gets sued if the kid gets beat up for wearing the shirt.
You'd almost think this would be an incentive to provide a safe environment, huh?
Well, actually you'd think basic common sense and decency would be enough incentive to provide a safe environment but, again, we're dealing with a homophobic principle who gets his jollies by harassing kids here. So, with that in mind, "preventing getting sued" will have to do.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 8:46pm by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Being actively suppressed by authority figures in his life is going to be a hell of a lot more damaging than a few bruises.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Raolan wrote:
Yes, because speaking out while in a hostile environment, resulting in hostility towards anyone speaking out, is going to make everyone want to run out and join him. Great idea.
It just shocks me that anyone advocates that the kids creating a hostile environment should "win." I'm sure that a kid showing some courage in the face of ignorance and hostility would rally some to his cause. And if they don't, then at least he knows he stood up for himself and didn't allow kids to bully him into silence.
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Assuming you were responding to my earlier post, in both cases the speech is about inclusion of a group at school.
You didn't seriously just miss the point like that.
No, I didn't. But I suspect you missed the point I was making.
Quote:
Quote:
I just think that you're walking on a slippery slope when you start limiting speech based not on the words actually spoken, but whether you don't like something the words refer to.
I think you're making up stuff that doesn't exist. I think the idea of "White Student Unions" is asinine but, provided the school required them to accept "allies" (i.e. any non-white student who wanted to join), I wouldn't be against someone wearing a shirt advocating for it. The KKK, on the other hand, is not an inclusive organization. You know this and you're just making yourself look stupid by trying to draw an equivalency between it and your standard "GLBY & Allies" organization.
But the question of speech has to do with the speech itself, not what the speech is about. Your argument is a great one for a school allowing a GSA club but not a KKK club on campus. And you'll get nothing but agreement from me on that btw. But the question I was addressing was about the speech on the t-shirt.
To live in a free society we *must* allow speech that is vastly broader than the actions we allow. We must allow people to advocate for and express their opinions about things we don't agree with and even for things which are illegal. It's what protects a person wearing a "legalize it" t-shirt. Take that freedom away and it becomes impossible to make the very social and legal changes which most of those arguing the wrong side of this presumably support themselves. You throw out the baby and the bathwater.
In case you failed to get it the first several times, I'm *only* talking about the free speech aspect of wearing the t-shirt. And in that context, if we decide that it's wrong for the principle to not allow a student to wear a shirt advocating the creation of a student club, then it must be wrong for any case of a student wearing a shirt advocating the creation of a student club, regardless of what the club is. It's not free speech otherwise.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:51pm by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Being actively suppressed by authority figures in his life is going to be a hell of a lot more damaging than a few bruises.
Donate. One day it could be your family.
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
Gah... stupid edit.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:51pm by gbaji
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:51pm by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Gah... stupid edit.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:51pm by gbaji
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:51pm by gbaji
I was starting to wonder if you were losing your mind.
gbaji wrote:
To live in a free society...
A public school is not a "free society". It is a given that there will be restrictions on speech. Comparing it, or using the platform of a "free society" for it is to immediately start off with a ridiculous premise.
Given that speech will be restricted, it's completely reasonable to set parameters on what that restriction will be. In my opinion, restricting shirts advocating for exclusive organizations is reasonable. Your mileage may vary.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Being actively suppressed by authority figures in his life is going to be a hell of a lot more damaging than a few bruises.
I had people pull the "it's for your own good" argument on me when I was in school. Looking back, if I had actually given up my causes, I would hate myself now.
Oppression is a really awful beast. Once you start catering to the oppressors under the guise of protecting the oppressed, you've only ensured who loses in the end. Stopping this kid from expressing his desire for a school that protects LGBTQ rights isn't helping anyone.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Yes, because speaking out while in a hostile environment, resulting in hostility towards anyone speaking out, is going to make everyone want to run out and join him. Great idea.
It just shocks me that anyone advocates that the kids creating a hostile environment should "win." I'm sure that a kid showing some courage in the face of ignorance and hostility would rally some to his cause. And if they don't, then at least he knows he stood up for himself and didn't allow kids to bully him into silence.
It isn't about letting the bullies win, it's about preventing the potential victim from losing.
I'm sure the kid speaking out would rally people to his cause, right up to the point that the football team drags him out back and puts him into a coma.
Raolan wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Yes, because speaking out while in a hostile environment, resulting in hostility towards anyone speaking out, is going to make everyone want to run out and join him. Great idea.
It just shocks me that anyone advocates that the kids creating a hostile environment should "win." I'm sure that a kid showing some courage in the face of ignorance and hostility would rally some to his cause. And if they don't, then at least he knows he stood up for himself and didn't allow kids to bully him into silence.
It isn't about letting the bullies win, it's about preventing the potential victim from losing.
I'm sure the kid speaking out would rally people to his cause, right up to the point that the football team drags him out back and puts him into a coma.
The kid's already losing. And if we force him into a closet (
And all it does is ensure that the next person who tries to stick up for themselves meets the exact same resistance. What--do you force them all to stay closeted forever, simply because it's unsafe for them to come out?
That's *********
As instructors, it's their job to make the school a safe environment for kids and work to promote acceptance from an early age. That's never going to happen if their primary tactic is to keep issues hidden.
All it does is continue to stigmatize the child.
That's *********
As instructors, it's their job to make the school a safe environment for kids and work to promote acceptance from an early age. That's never going to happen if their primary tactic is to keep issues hidden.
All it does is continue to stigmatize the child.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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