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Most articles are alleging assault, which I'm not going to call this simply because the connotative meaning of the word is too strong to me.
But, long story is short:
1. Straight kid is trying to stick up for his bi sister in an environment that is heavily anti-gay.
2. Straight kid refuses to take off a shirt he made supporting the creation of a GSA, the requests for which had been denied by the school board (and allegedly, the principle has threatened to punish students who endorse a petition for it).
3. Principle allegedly tries to emasculate the kid for supporting ***** rights, pushing him around (or something).
The school is prohibited by law from denying a GSA organization, if they offer other non-academic clubs (which they do, according to their website).
The school doesn't demand that teachers provide equal treatment for children based on their sexual orientation (though, afaik, TN has no *****-protection laws).
I don't quite understand what makes administrators think they can do things like this. The precedent in the Supreme Court is well established at this point...
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 5:50pm by idiggory
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
If a shirt causes this kind of mess, then its a good case to implement school uniforms.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
lolgaxe wrote:
If a shirt causes this kind of mess, then its a good case to implement school uniforms.
Or a good case to implement more open-minded teachers.
Meh, the school was likely going to end up getting sued by the ACLU anyway. They just decided to make it worse for themselves I guess.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Paradox wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
If a shirt causes this kind of mess, then its a good case to implement school uniforms.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Of course it's TN...
It takes a lot of guts to come out, or support someone who's come out, as gay/bi in a small town high-school like that. Kudos to the kid for showing support for his sister.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
lolgaxe wrote:
Paradox wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
If a shirt causes this kind of mess, then its a good case to implement school uniforms.
Ahh, yes, I did miss that, actually. This computer is crap so I try not to have more than one or two tabs open at a time.
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Meh, the school was likely going to end up getting sued by the ACLU anyway. They just decided to make it worse for themselves I guess.
Honestly? It's a lose-lose for the school no matter what they do. Interestingly enough the principle did have one valid point in all of this: The other students have a right to their opinions too. A friend of mine's school had two simultaneous lawsuits filed against them a few years ago. One was a student suing because he was not allowed to wear a t-shirt with a gay-rights message. The other was students suing because they felt that the gay-rights message on the first students t-shirt was offensive.
The school lost both cases.
The issue of free speech in public school is a lot more complex than just which speech you agree with. Without getting into the issue of the school potentially acting to prevent a GSA from forming on their campus, the issue with the t-shirt just isn't that cut and dried.
Put it in another perspective. What if the t-shirt was advocating for a KKK club to be formed on campus? Would your opinion about who was right and who was wrong change? Unfortunately, far far too often questions of free speech don't revolve as much around the principle of free speech as they do with agreement or disagreement with the speech in question. Which isn't how it should be IMO.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
In before Gbaji and Alma turn this into a 20 page thread about how high school kids who come out of the closet are just seeking attention with the intent to disrupt the education of all the normal perfectly decent god-fearing children who's innocence is being stolen by the openly flagrant behavior of a deviant few.
Edit: Guess not. Predictable idiot is predictable.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:34pm by BrownDuck
Edit: Guess not. Predictable idiot is predictable.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 6:34pm by BrownDuck
BrownDuck wrote:
In before Gbaji and Alma turn this into a 20 page thread about how high school kids who come out of the closet are just seeking attention with the intent to disrupt the education of all the normal perfectly decent god-fearing children who's innocence is being stolen by the openly flagrant behavior of a deviant few.
Edit: Guess not. Predictable idiot is predictable.
Edit: Guess not. Predictable idiot is predictable.
Either Alma posted and I didn't see it, or your reading comprehension is a tad off there.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Either Alma posted and I didn't see it, or your reading comprehension is a tad off there.
Neither. My point was that one (or both) of you would end up posting to defend the teacher. Check and mate.
gbaji wrote:
Put it in another perspective. What if the t-shirt was advocating for a KKK club to be formed on campus? Would your opinion about who was right and who was wrong change? Unfortunately, far far too often questions of free speech don't revolve as much around the principle of free speech as they do with agreement or disagreement with the speech in question. Which isn't how it should be IMO.
Absolutely. Sorry, but there's a huge difference between the KKK agenda, ********** everyone who is not white and straight" and the GSA agenda, which is "We're no different from you guys, so you should totally accept us. Here, have a pie, we just want to be friends!"
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Of course it's TN...
Paradox wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Put it in another perspective. What if the t-shirt was advocating for a KKK club to be formed on campus? Would your opinion about who was right and who was wrong change? Unfortunately, far far too often questions of free speech don't revolve as much around the principle of free speech as they do with agreement or disagreement with the speech in question. Which isn't how it should be IMO.
Absolutely. Sorry, but there's a huge difference between the KKK agenda, "@#%^ everyone who is not white and straight" and the GSA agenda, which is "We're no different from you guys, so you should totally accept us. Here, have a pie, we just want to be friends!"
So the right to free speech is limited to speech you agree with? Sorry, but I disagree. Remember, we're assuming that in both cases, the shirt itself uses inoffensive words that merely express support for a proposed group at school, with nothing at all about the positions or ideals of the groups themselves. Why would you agree with a principle asking the student to remove the shirt in one case but not another?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
BrownDuck wrote:
In before Gbaji and Alma turn this into a 20 page thread about how high school kids who come out of the closet are just seeking attention with the intent to disrupt the education of all the normal perfectly decent god-fearing children who's innocence is being stolen by the openly flagrant behavior of a deviant few.
BrownDuck wrote:
My point was that one (or both) of you would end up posting to defend the teacher. Check and mate.
One of these things is not even remotely close to being like the other.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Within the confines of the school, where "free speech" is restricted on the best of days, I have no problem with allowing messages of inclusion and not allowing messages of exclusion.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Sure, unless the message of inclusion is going to create a hostile environment.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Maybe you can think of an example I'd disagree with but I'd worry more about those getting hostile over inclusion than those who want to include.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
It isn't the message, it's the reaction of everyone else to the message. The other kids were already hostile to the kid in the story over it. The principle overreacted, but I still don't agree the teen should be allowed to wear that shirt. He'll get his *** kicked, then it'll be a nightmare of hate crime allegations.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
lolgaxe wrote:
It isn't the message, it's the reaction of everyone else to the message. The other kids were already hostile to the kid in the story over it. The principle overreacted, but I still don't agree the teen should be allowed to wear that shirt. He'll get his *** kicked, then it'll be a nightmare of hate crime allegations.
So it's a "we're disallowing you to wear the shirt for your own safety" type thing...? Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
As an argument to just make everyone wear uniforms so the school doesn't have to bother with it at all, I'm fairly neutral. As far as singling out this specific student and this specific shirt, I can't get behind it.
Of course, in a perfect world, the school would recognize its obligation to produce as safe an environment as it can. In the real world, this school is run by an inbred homophobe who picks on children.
Of course, in a perfect world, the school would recognize its obligation to produce as safe an environment as it can. In the real world, this school is run by an inbred homophobe who picks on children.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
Within the confines of the school, where "free speech" is restricted on the best of days, I have no problem with allowing messages of inclusion and not allowing messages of exclusion.
Assuming you were responding to my earlier post, in both cases the speech is about inclusion of a group at school. I just think that you're walking on a slippery slope when you start limiting speech based not on the words actually spoken, but whether you don't like something the words refer to. And it's insanely hypocritical in this case. If we accept the premise that the GSA is being blocked because people don't like gays, and the kid was singled out because he wore a t-shirt advocating the creation of the GSA, how is that different than the case of a student wearing a t-shirt advocating the creation of the hypothetical KKK club? If you are ok with the second student being required to remove his shirt aren't you *also* doing it because you don't like the KKK and therefore don't want a student wearing a t-shirt advocating a KKK club?
I don't see a difference between those two in the context of speech. It's just interesting that it seems that some people have a hard time distinguishing between the speech and the acts/positions of the group(s) the speech is about. Even if the KKK can (should) be excluded from having a club on campus does not remove the right of a student to wear a t-shirt advocating such a club (assuming we accept that such a right exists in the first place). Certainly, the same right to advocate any club should exist equally regardless of what we think of the clubs themselves. Assuming similar language, either both should be protected speech, or neither should be.
Edited, Oct 5th 2011 5:58pm by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Isn't that sort of like punishing the victim?
It seems worse to me to give in to bullying school children and teaching them that might makes right.
I can see the plus side for wearing school uniforms, but it's not something I'm willing to get behind. It's a cop out to blame clothes when we need to be teaching tolerance. Otherwise, you'll still have the same social issues outside school. I think it's a better idea to break kids from that habit early in life. School uniforms take away individuality as well.
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