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#2052 Jan 09 2012 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
I'll freely admit I unfairly criticize Christianity more harshly than it deserves and more so than other religions.
I'd be less critical of it if they weren't constantly trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. Just dealing with Westboro is enough to want to shoot any denomination.
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#2053 Jan 09 2012 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
I'll freely admit I unfairly criticize Christianity more harshly than it deserves and more so than other religions.
I'd be less critical of it if they weren't constantly trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. Just dealing with Westboro is enough to want to shoot any denomination.


Well, lets be fair.. it does work both ways. 'Tis true that Christians are notorious for doing it, but I think that's more so due to numbers.

I personally don't agree with "witnessing" to people. I believe if you have a prosperous life (whether or not it's from religion or not), people will take heed of your actions.

Edited, Jan 10th 2012 6:48am by Almalieque
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#2054 Jan 09 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
I'll freely admit I unfairly criticize Christianity more harshly than it deserves and more so than other religions.
I'd be less critical of it if they weren't constantly trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. Just dealing with Westboro is enough to want to shoot any denomination.


This ^

I am pretty sure the Sikh religion isn't up on the gays - and guess what, I have never once heard someone of the Sikh faith say so. I've eaten in their temples (delicious food by the way) and been told that they don't believe in spreading their religion - they simply answer questions if people ask.

Unlike say the salvation army, you're not asked to praise whoever or whatever they praise (I don't even know to be honest) in order to get a bite to eat - you just enter the caf and get some nice vegetarian food for free. Nice people.

I know most mainline buddist sects are not in favour of homos - but again, I've never seen a buddhist led protest against queers.

Pretty much all the main religions are not into queers but I never really hear any adherents making a big deal out of it except christianity, judaism and islam. Everyone else is actually pretty polite about not shoving their religion down other people's throats, at least over here.
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#2055 Jan 09 2012 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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like Protestant pastors don't do the same thing. (and their respective organizations such as the United Church of Canada for example don't do the same either)

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#2056 Jan 09 2012 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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ah, the united church is different because they believe in gay marriage, potlucks and protecting the environment... and they don't push the Jesus pill either

Edited, Jan 9th 2012 4:32pm by Olorinus
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#2057 Jan 09 2012 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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And this is why we love the catholic church.

Quote:
Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future: Pope
By Philip Pullella | Reuters - 9 hours ago

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict said Monday that gay marriage was one of several threats to the traditional family that undermined "the future of humanity itself."

The pope made some of his strongest comments against gay marriage in a new year address to the diplomatic corps accredited to the Vatican in which he touched on some economic and social issues facing the world today.

He told diplomats from nearly 180 countries that the education of children needed proper "settings" and that "pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and a woman."

"This is not a simple social convention, but rather the fundamental cell of every society. Consequently, policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself," he said.

The Vatican and Catholic officials around the world have protested against moves to legalize gay marriage in Europe and other developed parts of the world.

One leading opponent of gay marriage in the United States is New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, whom the pope will elevate to cardinal next month.

Dolan fought against gay marriage before it became legal in New York state last June, and in September he sent a letter to President Barack Obama criticizing his administration's decision not to support a federal ban on gay marriage.

In that letter Dolan, who holds the powerful post of president of the U.S. Bishops Conference, said such a policy could "precipitate a national conflict between church and state of enormous proportions."

The Roman Catholic Church, which has some 1.3 billion members worldwide, teaches that while homosexual tendencies are not sinful, homosexual acts are, and that children should grow up in a traditional family with a mother and a father.

"The family unit is fundamental for the educational process and for the development both of individuals and states; hence there is a need for policies which promote the family and aid social cohesion and dialogue," Benedict told the diplomats.

Gay marriage is legal in a number of European countries, including Spain and the Netherlands.

Some Churches that have allowed gay marriage, women priests, gay clergy and gay bishops have been losing members to Catholicism, and the Vatican has taken steps to facilitate their conversion.

In 2009, Benedict decreed that Anglicans who leave their Church, many because they feel it has become too liberal, can find a home in Catholicism in a parallel hierarchy that allows them to keep some of their traditions.

The Vatican has since set up "ordinariates," structures similar to dioceses, in Britain and the United States to oversee ex-Anglicans who have converted and be a point of contact for those wishing to do so.

http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/gay-marriage-threat-humanitys-future-pope-184113291.html?orig_host_hdr=ca.news.yahoo.com&.intl=ca&.lang=en-ca
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#2058 Jan 09 2012 at 11:11 PM Rating: Default
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Any church that doesn't teach Eternal Salvation through Jesus or teach the Bible may as well preach Friedrich Nietzsche at the pulpit.
Everyone seems happy with Christianity as long as it's message is empty and neutered.

The difference difference between me and what you call "good Christians" is that I actually believe that the Bible is more than just another self help book and give a sh*t enough to openly admit it. The disciples would be quite embarrassed that I'm not representing the Gospel as just another easily swallowed emotional placebo, I'm sure.

I can see Christ now saying, "ZOMG; WHY DID I SUFFER ON THAT CROSS!? I SHOULD HAVE JUST WROTE 'THE SECRET' INSTEAD!"

The Pope wrote:

Gay marriage a threat to humanity's future


See.. Yes. This is the stuff that I am embarrassed by as a Christian.

Humanity's future is not threatened; Humanity's future is decided by God. I can't see where this MAN gets off saying such things...
People sin. That's It. It's no big secret and it's not big surprise..
THIS is why I have such ill will toward the Catholic Church.. because they say things like this and the rest of the world shrinks back from everything to do with Christ...
Why don't they see that?

Edited, Jan 10th 2012 12:18am by Kelvyquayo
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#2059 Jan 10 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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What about Mother Theresa saying that abortion is the single biggest threat to world peace, in her Nobel peace prize acceptance speech?

The peace prize committee make me wonder sometimes. I mean, Al Gore for a slide show instead of that German woman who saved thousands of Jewish kids during the holocaust. Barack Obama for, actually I have no idea why he won it. They need to get their priorities in order.
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#2060 Jan 10 2012 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Everyone seems happy with Christianity as long as it's message is empty and neutered.
[...]
THIS is why I have such ill will toward the Catholic Church.. because they say things like this and the rest of the world shrinks back from everything to do with Christ...
Why don't they see that?

Smiley: laugh
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#2061 Jan 10 2012 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Jesus: Peace, love, and forgiveness

Christianity: Crusades, hatreds of those we don't like, and vengeance.
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#2062 Jan 10 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
What about Mother Theresa saying that abortion is the single biggest threat to world peace, in her Nobel peace prize acceptance speech?

The peace prize committee make me wonder sometimes. I mean, Al Gore for a slide show instead of that German woman who saved thousands of Jewish kids during the holocaust. Barack Obama for, actually I have no idea why he won it. They need to get their priorities in order.


uh yeah, I think the peace prize lost all meaning when kissinger won it
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#2063 Jan 10 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Any church that doesn't teach Eternal Salvation through Jesus or teach the Bible may as well preach Friedrich Nietzsche at the pulpit.
Everyone seems happy with Christianity as long as it's message is empty and neutered.


Well, you can call people standing up for the poor and weak among us "empty and neutered" but I think that christians who focus on the core message of Jesus and attempt to show their faith through action are a heck of lot more christian than those that preach the words without the spirit.

Quote:
But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8-7


Quote:
"Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." Matthew 7:5


Quote:
"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." Matt 15:11


Quote:
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Matt 5:7


Quote:
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. John 4:18


Quote:
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen John 4:20


Quote:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34


Seems like folks that hold potlucks, sign petitions against war, and welcome all people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation to sing with them and share in spirit with them - are a heck of a lot more christian than people preaching about hell and brimstone and hating people who are different than them, salvation or not.


Edited, Jan 10th 2012 12:22pm by Olorinus
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#2064 Jan 10 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Seems like folks that hold potlucks, sign petitions against war, and welcome all people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation to sing with them and share in spirit with them - are a heck of a lot more christian than people preaching about hell and brimstone and hating people who are different than them, salvation or not.

Can't it be both? Or, less flip, Jesus did preach love and compassion and mercy. Jesus also commanded his disciples to rebuke sin, to hold one another accountable and warned in real terms of Hell. Neither side alone is an accurate representation but people like to glom onto the feel-good side since "yay! love!" doesn't require as much from them as confession, repentance and accountability.
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#2065 Jan 10 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
What about Mother Theresa saying that abortion is the single biggest threat to world peace, in her Nobel peace prize acceptance speech?

The peace prize committee make me wonder sometimes. I mean, Al Gore for a slide show instead of that German woman who saved thousands of Jewish kids during the holocaust. Barack Obama for, actually I have no idea why he won it. They need to get their priorities in order.


uh yeah, I think the peace prize lost all meaning when kissinger won it

Smiley: laugh Excellent point.
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#2066 Jan 10 2012 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Jesus also commanded his disciples to rebuke sin, to hold one another accountable and warned in real terms of Hell.


Quote:
From these twelve gehenna passages, we learn that Gehenna would be the familiar valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem where an imminent fiery judgment was coming on the Jews of the generation in which Jesus was crucified. It was unquenchable fire on that generation in that generation. It was a national judgment against the Jews. Gehenna was to the Jews of Jesus’ day what it was to the Jews of Jeremiah’s day-where the term originated-the city dump! But it entailed all the horror of being rejected and abandoned by God to the merciless enemy who surrounded the gates and who would cause their dead carcasses to be thrown into the burning, worm-infested place. Thus, when Jesus used the term He used it in the same sense that Jeremiah did: as Jerusalem then was abandoned to Babylon’s invasion, so Jerusalem of Jesus’ day was about to be abandoned to Roman invasion-unless they repented. None of these hell passages say that anyone of our day can go to hell. None of them associate hell with Satan. None of them say that Satan’s domain is hell. Though they speak of men being killed and destroyed in Gehenna, none of them speak of men being tormented there.

As we’ve seen, the concept of endless punishment was completely foreign to inspired writing before the Law of Moses, during the Law of Moses, and now we see it’s foreign to the teaching of Jesus.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Sorry Joph, but hell as the hellfire and brimstone christians preach about doesn't exist in the bible.

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#2067 Jan 10 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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IIRC, that's an invention of the early church. I think the whole point of hell was originally just eternal separation from God, not actual eternal torture. Something similar to Sheol, or whatever.
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#2068 Jan 10 2012 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
IIRC, that's an invention of the early church. I think the whole point of hell was originally just eternal separation from God, not actual eternal torture. Something similar to Sheol, or whatever.


Yeah from the same guy:

Quote:
The Hebrew Old Testament, some three hundred years before the Christian era, was translated into Greek, but of the sixty-four instances where Sheol occurs in the Hebrew, it is rendered Hadees in the Greek sixty times, so that either word is the equivalent of the other. But neither of these words is ever used in the Bible to signify punishment after death, nor should the word Hell ever be used as the rendering of Sheol or Hadees for neither word denotes post-mortem torment. According to the Old Testament the words Sheol, Hadees primarily signify only the place, or state of the dead. The character of those who departed thither did not affect their situation in Sheol, for all went into the same state. The word cannot be translated by the term Hell, for that would make Jacob expect to go to a place of torment, and prove that the Savior of the world, David, Jonah, etc., were once sufferers in the prison-house of the damned. In every instance in the Old Testament, the word grave might be substituted for the term hell, either in a literal or figurative sense. The word being a proper name should always have been left untranslated. Had it been carried into the Greek Septuagint, and thence into the English, untranslated, Sheol, a world of misconception would have been avoided, for when it is rendered Hadees, all the materialism of the heathen mythology is suggested to the mind, and when rendered Hell, the medieval monstrosities of a Christianity corrupted by heathen adulterations is suggested. Had the word been permitted to travel untranslated, no one would give to it the meaning now so often applied to it. Sheol, primarily, literally, the grave, or death, secondarily and figuratively the political, social, moral or spiritual consequences of wickedness in the present world, is the precise force of the term, wherever found.

Sheol occurs exactly sixty-four times and is translated hell thirty-two times, pit three times, and grave twenty-nine times. Dr. George Campbell, a celebrated critic, says that "Sheol signifies the state of the dead in general, without regard to the goodness or badness of the persons, their happiness or misery."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html



Edited, Jan 10th 2012 3:14pm by Olorinus
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#2069 Jan 10 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Everyone seems happy with Christianity as long as it's message is empty and neutered.
[...]
THIS is why I have such ill will toward the Catholic Church.. because they say things like this and the rest of the world shrinks back from everything to do with Christ...
Why don't they see that?

Smiley: laugh



Picking and choosing which sin is worse, such as what the Pope's statement is doing, is surely not teaching the message of Christ. Everyone here seems to be saying that they are happy with Christianity as long as they don't actually talk about the meaning of the Gospel. Making a statement like "Gays will destroy humanity" is surely not preaching the Gospel... but I know you know this.. whatever, Yuck it up.

As far as people claiming that those that try to teach the Gospel is an act of unkindness.. well.. would you see it as unkind if I abruptly woke you up from the loveliest dream you'd ever had if I woke you up to tell you that there was a bomb in the room about to explode? Even if I had to dump ice-water over your head and have you react by punching me in the face; it would be worth saving your life..

Quote:

IIRC, that's an invention of the early church. I think the whole point of hell was originally just eternal separation from God, not actual eternal torture. Something similar to Sheol, or whatever.


Scripturally (in my understanding) suffering and torment of the unsaved is NOT eternal. Revelation ch20 says that when it is all said and done that Hell with be disgorged of the souls of the tormented and that they will essentially be made into nothing.. blinked out like a flame on a candle. This is the "second death".

However by this time those unsaved souls will know the and understand what eternal glory that they have chosen to give up on; that is where the torment comes in.

But no, when the eternal perfected universe is fully instated the God of Love isn't going have a dirty little secret in the basement where people are suffering forever...

God can choose to forget the sins of the forgiven (those that choose to believe in the Cross) Surely he can choose to forget those that rejected His forgiveness and when God forgets something it ceases to exist.




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#2070 Jan 10 2012 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Like he forgot his covenant with the Jews? Why do Jews still exist?!
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#2071 Jan 10 2012 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
As far as people claiming that those that try to teach the Gospel is an act of unkindness.. well.. would you see it as unkind if I abruptly woke you up from the loveliest dream you'd ever had if I woke you up to tell you that there was a bomb in the room about to explode?
I'd be pissed at how much of a lazy sod you were that instead of trying to save me from the explosion you decided to endanger both of us by wasting time trying to wake me up first.
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#2072 Jan 10 2012 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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I'm on a tablet and not able to look stuff up but, regardless, even the hell bit (which I disagree with) doesn't wipe away the expectation to identify and rebuke sin. Which is what gets everyone's panties in a knot anyway.
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#2073 Jan 10 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
I remember this thread.
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#2074 Jan 10 2012 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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#2075 Jan 10 2012 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Like he forgot his covenant with the Jews? Why do Jews still exist?!


He forgot no such thing. The Jews were and are the microcosm for the rest of humanity and Jerusalem for the world.
Of course there are many that disagree with that assessment.. especially Jews.
Quote:

the expectation to identify and rebuke sin.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here; my being all preachy preachy or the way that Christianity works?
I don't really see sin as an action that is committed by people but more a condition of existence:
For those interested: My view is this:

Being born again means "Born of the Spirit" meaning that you live you life no longer for the Flesh.

In this regard there are 2 distinct states of being: Living for the Spirit or Living for the Flesh.

While we are still living on this cursed earth we can never fully 100% be living for the Spirit; but we are driven to. The opposite force of the Spirit is the Flesh; EVIL. SATAN. DARKNESS.

The moment that we lose our consciousness of the living for the Spirit then the forces of EVIL began pulling us down.. as far as it can give us until we once again make the conscious decision to ignite the spark of the Spirit and let that guide us once again....
This is a constant in life.. it is a constant struggle between Light and Darkness... No human being can completely and totally be free of the Flesh..
Now I DO believe that those that are NOT in Christ/Spirit may live totally for the Flesh. This is the constant state of their lives...
That is the difference:

We are ALL sinners; but we that live for Christ are make aware of the darkness and become guided by it so that we may be led unto Glory and Holiness before the Lord on the day of Judgement.
Those sinners that do NOT have the Spirit are simply living in darkness.. Their struggles are empty.. they chase their own tale in the dust..

May God keep you in the Light.


Edited, Jan 11th 2012 12:28am by Kelvyquayo
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#2076 Jan 11 2012 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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I wasn't talking to you which may explain why you're having trouble fitting my comments into your narrative.
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#2077 Jan 11 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember this thread.
You damn well better. You're the reason for most of this bullsh*t and someday, you'll have to pay for it.
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#2078 Jan 11 2012 at 7:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alma 2:06


Fixed for new biblical theme.
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#2079 Jan 11 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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#2080 Jan 11 2012 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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Testify.
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#2081 Jan 11 2012 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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More like testes-fy, AMIRITE???
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#2082 Jan 11 2012 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
And yea though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I will let no homo see my junk...


Jophiel wrote:
More like testes-fy, AMIRITE???


First I was like Smiley: lol

Then I was like Smiley: facepalm
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#2083 Jan 11 2012 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Then I was like Smiley: facepalm

This is usually the appropriate response to most of what Joph posts.
#2084 Jan 11 2012 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
IIRC, that's an invention of the early church. I think the whole point of hell was originally just eternal separation from God, not actual eternal torture. Something similar to Sheol, or whatever.


Pretty much this. And not really eternal separation from God, so much as "when you die and are judged, you stay dead if you don't believe. The idea of an eternal hell of torture is rather contrary to Jesus's teachings. It was "follow me and you get to live forever!" not "Follow me and either you live forever in heaven or burn forever in hell!"

The bad translations are why I find the King James Version of the Bible so easy to ridicule. Not only do they put in all that stuff about Hell in the NT, they also add into the OT... when the Jews never had any concept of such a place. Added bonus: it's the version used by most Evangelicals, and it's fun to watch them sputter about how it's really the literal Word of God when you can point out the exact translation errors.

I'm kind of an annoying ass.
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#2085 Jan 11 2012 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sheol was a separate concept. The idea that, when you die, you just go to rest. There wasn't a concept of a beneficial or detrimental afterlife in Judaic custom; God rewarded your piety on earth and everyone went to the same afterlife when they died.

The linked bits refer to the JKV which immediately puts me off to them as there's been much better translated texts since then.
Quote:
Added bonus: it's the version used by most Evangelicals

Is it? I'll admit I haven't gone through the bookcases of many Evangelicals but, given that the KJV isn't the translation used by most Protestant denominations, I'd be surprised to learn that most Evangelicals use it. I'd have guessed the New English Version or something.

As for Hell itself:
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out" - Mark 9:43
"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28
"How will you escape being condemned to hell?" - Matthew 23:33
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:15

Now, if you want to substitute Sheol or whatever other word for "Hell" in those passages, feel free. If you think that substitution means that Jesus wasn't really warning of a detrimental afterlife as a consequence of not obeying God, I don't know what to tell you.

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 11:56am by Jophiel
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#2086 Jan 11 2012 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't recall jesus telling anyone to rebuke the sins of others. In fact the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" and the line about the mote and beam, both suggest the exact opposite to me - that we are each responsible for our own moral life, and unless we are blameless we should not judge others.
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#2087 Jan 11 2012 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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#2088 Jan 11 2012 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
I don't recall jesus telling anyone to rebuke the sins of others.

"If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them." - Luke 17:3
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In fact the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" and the line about the mote and beam, both suggest the exact opposite to me - that we are each responsible for our own moral life, and unless we are blameless we should not judge others.

Not quite. The second half of the mote & beam line is "For by the measure you judge others, so will you be judged." It's a warning against hypocrisy, not a statement that no one should ever note someone else's failings. As for the woman, Jesus himself tells her to go and sin no more.

Edited, Jan 11th 2012 12:15pm by Jophiel
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#2089 Jan 11 2012 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:

As for Hell itself:
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out" - Mark 9:43 Gehenna
"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 Gehenna
"How will you escape being condemned to hell?" - Matthew 23:33 Gehenna
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:15 Gehenna (and it's Like 12:5, not 12:15 Smiley: smile)

Now, if you want to substitute Sheol or whatever other word for "Hell" in those passages, feel free. If you think that substitution means that Jesus wasn't really warning of a detrimental afterlife as a consequence of not obeying God, I don't know what to tell you.


Gehenna was used in all those cases, referring to the dump site of dead bodies and refuse outside of Jerusalem, a place of where the dead were left and burned until they are destroyed. It is also synonymous with the Valley of Hinnom, infamous from the Old Testament as the Jews there turned from God and were to be punished by letting their dead bodies lie there to rot.

Seems pretty clear when you realize this is exactly how the Jews would understand it, that Jesus is referring to true death, without the chance of eternal life. In effect he's saying that if you don't follow God (or Jesus, as they're pretty much synonymous in this sense), your body won't have an afterlife. You'll just be dead, thrown into the garbage dump of the earth, and rot or burn up. This is also exactly what I was talking about with needing to know the actual translations. You did hit the nail on the head with Sheol though; the KJV is one of the only mainstream Bible that translates it as Hell in both Old and New Testaments.
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#2090 Jan 11 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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On one hand, I very much disagree with your assessment and would argue that it, in fact, goes completely counter to Jesus' message.

On the other hand, I realize that I don't feel like debating it Smiley: laugh
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#2091 Jan 11 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
On one hand, I very much disagree with your assessment and would argue that it, in fact, goes completely counter to Jesus' message.

On the other hand, I realize that I don't feel like debating it Smiley: laugh

You're a more mature man than I; I never know when to back down Smiley: lol
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#2092 Jan 11 2012 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to claim that my unwillingness just proves how scared I am and stuff!

But, yeah, I try not to debate theology too much. Never seems to lead anywhere fruitful -- hell, at least in politics you can see who wins the next election Smiley: laugh
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#2093 Jan 11 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Apropos of nothing, I was just reading the description of Fear 3 on Greenmangaming and cracked up:
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Experience the Almaverse: The game world is tainted by the Almaverse, the alternate dimension where Alma’s psychic essence subsists. New sinister and fantastical enemy creatures birthed in Alma’s warped mind spill into reality and intensify the panic.


I don't think I want to play that game Smiley: frown
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#2094 Jan 11 2012 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
On one hand, I very much disagree with your assessment and would argue that it, in fact, goes completely counter to Jesus' message.

On the other hand, I realize that I don't feel like debating it Smiley: laugh


Post 2089. When you feel man enough to respond to Locke, you let us know. Until then, we all know this means he's won, and you just have no response.

Am I doin it rite?
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#2095 Jan 11 2012 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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#2096 Jan 11 2012 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not enough words used incorrectly.
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#2097 Jan 11 2012 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Apropos of nothing, I was just reading the description of Fear 3 on Greenmangaming and cracked up:
Quote:
Experience the Almaverse: The game world is tainted by the Almaverse, the alternate dimension where Alma’s psychic essence subsists. New sinister and fantastical enemy creatures birthed in Alma’s warped mind spill into reality and intensify the panic.


I don't think I want to play that game Smiley: frown


Yipes! Sounds scary indeed.
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#2098 Jan 11 2012 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Apropos of nothing, I was just reading the description of Fear 3 on Greenmangaming and cracked up:
Quote:
Experience the Almaverse: The game world is tainted by the Almaverse, the alternate dimension where Alma’s psychic essence subsists. New sinister and fantastical enemy creatures birthed in Alma’s warped mind spill into reality and intensify the panic.


I don't think I want to play that game Smiley: frown


Yeah, but one of the endings isAlma being gruesomely eaten alive.
#2099 Jan 11 2012 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
On one hand, I very much disagree with your assessment and would argue that it, in fact, goes completely counter to Jesus' message.


hate to interrupt Smiley: nod
The suffering portion of hell works like this (as I see it):
SIN is like every human is coated in a thick coating of black pitch.
As I said before; this "sin" doesn't represent actions necessarily.. it is just how we are.. covered in this pitch and whatever we do and whatever we touch naturally gets coated in the stuff.

On the "day of judgement" basically God is going to light a match and throw it.. and I'm sure you could imagine the.. uh "gnashing of teeth" that will ensue.. They will not burn forever..it depends on how much of their "self" has been infused with the stuff.. but they will burn and suffer.. but this will only last until they they are left as a raw spirit to be judged before God.. and as REV20 says they are all cast into oblivion forver forgotten and no longer in existence. Truly Dead:
THEN the "New Heaven and New Earth" comes down.
The purpose of Christ is to wipe that flammable material off of us.. The blood of Christ is the only stuff that can wipe it off and free us from that burning judgment.. When we stand to be judged Christ already paid our debt of suffering and we are free to go.

AS far as debating about the "when" this happens.. you're right.. debating that is very tedious.
My own view that that "the dead" leave our time/space dimension.. so as far as they are concern their judgement happens right when they die.. even though to the physical universe it may be years or thousands of years..
..but I think that the suffering incurred by this "burning away" is determined by exactly how much of the black-pitch that you have basically fused yourself with...
This burning coupled with the fact that scripture says that EVERYONE shall stand before God and know the truth that they have given up means that everyone will suffer not just from the burning away of the sin that they has fused with but also in knowing that they denied their Creator and rejected the chance that they had in life to accept the forgiveness that He provides in Christ.


..and THAT is why I will never again sleep naked in a barracks with a live hamster and a fat Nepalese man!
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#2100 Jan 11 2012 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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Created sick and commanded to be well. Makes sense to me.
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#2101 Jan 11 2012 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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Nilatai wrote:
Created sick and commanded to be well. Makes sense to me.



It is the point of sentience and free-will..
Trees and quasars were created without those things. In your context "sick" merely means we think for ourselves but that is what separates us FROM trees and quasars.
We have a choice to GET well: getting well in our case mean eternal perfection... everything else in the universe has no choice of that and will burn away without emotion. That is why(and how) we more than just animals, vegetables, and minerals.


So then I said; I never want to catch you sniffing there AGAIN, MOM!!


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