Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Don't ask, don't tell, don't persueFollow

#1252 Nov 18 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
13,431 posts
Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Are you telling me that you can accurately determine a population's opinion on a highly divided subject by only polling a fraction of 1% of the total population?


Smiley: disappointed

Any statistician can give you an answer for that one. Then while you're at it ask a politician how to take the results out of context. Smiley: rolleyes


Good thing there's a difference between mathematicians and statisticians. Stats are done to social standards. There is no bias in math.


Um what? Smiley: dubious

As much as I don't want to say it, you're going to have to elaborate on that. Last time I did a T-test I don't remember there being an "unless you are ***" condition...



Being a statistician is like being a Physicist or Chemist. Although they use high level math, their focus is on the APPLICATION of the math, not the math itself. If you've taken higher level math courses with these sciences at the same time, you'll realize that those scientists develop procedures so that everyone is on the same page. To the mathematician, it's irrelevant.

A good example is the whole "heat exits the room, not cold air coming in". That's important to a Physicist when doing calculations in order to be consistent with the negative sign. For the mathematician, it doesn't matter where the negative sign goes.

It is not feasible for a statistician to poll the majority of the population, this is why there are multiple types of polls (with pros and cons) and there is "acceptable risk" (for a lack of a better term) that all statisticians use in order to be on the same page. However, that does not change the actual numbers in reference.


Well ok, so where's the bias?

Are people not polling a group that is representative of the larger population?
Are the scientists not choosing the right test?
Something else?

There's got to be something here other than labeling heat as positive, or republican as red...
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#1253 Nov 18 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
The whole "heat exits the room, not cold coming in" is a thing because there is no scientific concept of "cold," only increasing and decreasing amounts of thermal energy. Which, of course, leads to the negative sign because the heat flow is negative. Mathematicians are well aware of the fact that "increasing amounts of cold energy" makes fuck-all sense.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#1254 Nov 18 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Are you telling me that you can accurately determine a population's opinion on a highly divided subject by only polling a fraction of 1% of the total population?


Smiley: disappointed

Any statistician can give you an answer for that one. Then while you're at it ask a politician how to take the results out of context. Smiley: rolleyes


Good thing there's a difference between mathematicians and statisticians. Stats are done to social standards. There is no bias in math.


Um what? Smiley: dubious

As much as I don't want to say it, you're going to have to elaborate on that. Last time I did a T-test I don't remember there being an "unless you are ***" condition...



Being a statistician is like being a Physicist or Chemist. Although they use high level math, their focus is on the APPLICATION of the math, not the math itself. If you've taken higher level math courses with these sciences at the same time, you'll realize that those scientists develop procedures so that everyone is on the same page. To the mathematician, it's irrelevant.

A good example is the whole "heat exits the room, not cold air coming in". That's important to a Physicist when doing calculations in order to be consistent with the negative sign. For the mathematician, it doesn't matter where the negative sign goes.

It is not feasible for a statistician to poll the majority of the population, this is why there are multiple types of polls (with pros and cons) and there is "acceptable risk" (for a lack of a better term) that all statisticians use in order to be on the same page. However, that does not change the actual numbers in reference.


Well ok, so where's the bias?

Are people not polling a group that is representative of the larger population?
Are the scientists not choosing the right test?
Something else?

There's got to be something here other than labeling heat as positive, or republican as red...


Are you referring to in general or for the specific DOD DADT poll?

I can't speak for every poll and not every poll is intended to be biased. For example, if Fox news poll their viewers, it will be conservatively biased, not because it was intentional, but because their viewers are mostly conservative.

For the DOD DADT survey, it never asked if you supported DADT or not. Proponents of the repeal claim that they used negative "what if" scenarios to lure the person in answering a certain way. Opponents of the repeal claim that the people that have the highest opposition weren't even taken in consideration. Overall, it was a horrible poll and that's all Vageta is using as a base for "the military is all for the repeal, when in reality, the military actions speak louder than their words.
#1255 Nov 18 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Almalieque wrote:
If DADT should remain in effect or not. Do you think it's "pretty weak and laughable" to point out sources on both sides of the argument that stated that the actual poll never asked if DADT should remain in effect in a poll to determine if DADT should remain in effect?

Depends on the poll. Link to it and I'll let you know. Although, and this is more stuff about polling so it'll go right over your head, but you can often find out more by asking around the question than by asking it directly.
Quote:
You say that but here you are "wasting keystrokes"...

Post 477.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#1256 Nov 18 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Sweetums wrote:
The whole "heat exits the room, not cold coming in" is a thing because there is no scientific concept of "cold," only increasing and decreasing amounts of thermal energy. Which, of course, leads to the negative sign because the heat flow is negative. Mathematicians are well aware of the fact that "increasing amounts of cold energy" makes fuck-all sense.


I didn't say that they didn't understand the concept, I just merely said it doesn't matter where the sign goes in the actual computation as long as you're consistent.
#1257 Nov 18 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
13,431 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Are you referring to in general or for the specific DOD DADT poll?


I'm referring the the general statement you made which started this little tangent:

Almalieque wrote:
Are you telling me that you can accurately determine a population's opinion on a highly divided subject by only polling a fraction of 1% of the total population?


Whether or not a poll is misleading is a whole separate issue.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#1258 Nov 18 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
******
49,889 posts
Alma wrote:
I was talking with a 2LT tanker today and he looks like a high school/middle school kid.
Oh, you're using an officer's physique as your basis. I cannot possibly see the error inherent in that, since we all know how physically hard working officers are.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#1259 Nov 18 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
The whole "heat exits the room, not cold coming in" is a thing because there is no scientific concept of "cold," only increasing and decreasing amounts of thermal energy. Which, of course, leads to the negative sign because the heat flow is negative. Mathematicians are well aware of the fact that "increasing amounts of cold energy" makes fuck-all sense.


I didn't say that they didn't understand the concept, I just merely said it doesn't matter where the sign goes in the actual computation as long as you're consistent.
If you think mathematicians are less **** about seemingly arbitrary conventions, you'll be sorely disappointed
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#1260 Nov 18 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts


Omegavegeta wrote:
Post 1205.


Omegavegeta on post 1205 wrote:

Alma wrote:
1. You say "A JUSTIFICATION", but pretend that it is the SOLE JUSTIFICATION.


Give me another reason then.

The rest of your post has been covered, ad naseum.


Given that I just provided those links that you just asked for, it is impossible that you addressed them before I even posted them.

Your response to AA was "Start a new thread", which never addressed any of those questions.

You never once said anything about all white schools.

You never once gave an example about strength of an MP vs the strength of a tanker. I believe that you said that you don't know, which means your argument isn't valid, unless you can provide an example.

If you can find quotes with answers for all of those responses, I'll concede from this thread.

#1261 Nov 18 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Alma wrote:
Given that I just provided those links that you just asked for, it is impossible that you addressed them before I even posted them.


Post 1085.

Omega- "Dude, I don't normally attack sources, but a link to a blog that discusses a study which is then paraphrased by an organization that's sole purpose is to prevent gays in the military & limit woman's roles is pretty weak. Really, that's all you got? Fox News doesn't have anything you can use? "


Alma wrote:
Your response to AA was "Start a new thread", which never addressed any of those questions.


Post #15 of that thread.

Alma wrote:
You never once said anything about all white schools.


Post #583 of this thread.

Omega- "Heck, segregated schools would have been upheld in Brown vs The Board of Education if those schools were equal."

Alma wrote:
You never once gave an example about strength of an MP vs the strength of a tanker. I believe that you said that you don't know, which means your argument isn't valid, unless you can provide an example.


Post #859.

Omega- "I don't know enough about tankering & why woman aren't allowed to do it to give you my opinion on the subject though."

If you can let me know what the justification is for woman to not be allowed to be a tanker, I can possibly give you an opinion on whether or not I think it's justified or prejudice, thus discrimination.
Alma wrote:

If you can find quotes with answers for all of those responses, I'll concede from this thread.


Bu-Bye.






____________________________
"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin


#1262 Nov 19 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,547 posts
Sweetums wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Are you telling me that you can accurately determine a population's opinion on a highly divided subject by only polling a fraction of 1% of the total population?


Smiley: disappointed

Any statistician can give you an answer for that one. Then while you're at it ask a politician how to take the results out of context. Smiley: rolleyes


Good thing there's a difference between mathematicians and statisticians. Stats are done to social standards. There is no bias in math.
You have obviously never taken an upper-level statistics course


Or an upper level math course.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#1263 Nov 19 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Alma wrote:
Circle jerking ... topic at hand.
Giggity.

Edited, Nov 19th 2011 7:47am by Lubriderm
____________________________
Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

My Anime List
#1264 Nov 19 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Sweetums wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
The whole "heat exits the room, not cold coming in" is a thing because there is no scientific concept of "cold," only increasing and decreasing amounts of thermal energy. Which, of course, leads to the negative sign because the heat flow is negative. Mathematicians are well aware of the fact that "increasing amounts of cold energy" makes fuck-all sense.


I didn't say that they didn't understand the concept, I just merely said it doesn't matter where the sign goes in the actual computation as long as you're consistent.
If you think mathematicians are less **** about seemingly arbitrary conventions, you'll be sorely disappointed


I didn't say that they weren't. My point was that the application of math is irrelevant to the mathematician. 3/2 = 1 + 1/2 = 1.5. If your instructor wants you to answer one way over the other, then that's a personal preference. That has nothing to do with the accuracy of the answer.

Someproteinguy wrote:

Whether or not a poll is misleading is a whole separate issue.

Yes,it is. I was making two different points.
#1265 Nov 19 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
we could actually get some where!!!


Smiley: dubious


In reference to the discussion.


Smiley: dubious


Don't worry, Jophiel figured it out..

Smiley: dubious
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#1266 Nov 19 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Vageta wrote:
Omega- "Dude, I don't normally attack sources, but a link to a blog that discusses a study which is then paraphrased by an organization that's sole purpose is to prevent gays in the military & limit woman's roles is pretty weak. Really, that's all you got? Fox News doesn't have anything you can use? "


Vageta wrote:
Given that I just provided those links that you just asked for, it is impossible that you addressed them before I even posted them.


Those are completely different sites. You never addressed my recent sites. You lose!!

Vageta wrote:
Post #15 of that thread.


That thread isn't this thread and you even admitted that your intent was to show WHY you support AA and reparations. That wasn't the point of the question. The point of the question was for you to defend your statement on why you believe AA and reparations is the best solution!!

You fail again!

Vageta wrote:
Omega- "Heck, segregated schools would have been upheld in Brown vs The Board of Education if those schools were equal."


That doesn't answer the question on why we have all girls schools but can't have all white schools. You really just supported my point more ways than one.

Vageta wrote:
Omega- "I don't know enough about tankering & why woman aren't allowed to do it to give you my opinion on the subject though."

If you can let me know what the justification is for woman to not be allowed to be a tanker, I can possibly give you an opinion on whether or not I think it's justified or prejudice, thus discrimination.


Almalieque wrote:
You never once gave an example about strength of an MP vs the strength of a tanker. I believe that you said that you don't know, which means your argument isn't valid, unless you can provide an example.


Notice the bold. You initially said that you don't know enough, then you came back and said that women traditionally aren't strong enough. I was merely telling you that you never gave an example of your claim and yet you're using it again. So, until you educate yourself, stop using an invalid example.

You lose again.

Vageta wrote:
Bu-Bye.


My puppet.... I"m not going anywhere Smiley: nod

#1267 Nov 19 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque
I didn't say that they didn't understand the concept, I just merely said it doesn't matter where the sign goes in the actual computation as long as you're consistent. [/quote wrote:
If you think mathematicians are less **** about seemingly arbitrary conventions, you'll be sorely disappointed


I didn't say that they weren't. My point was that the application of math is irrelevant to the mathematician. 3/2 = 1 + 1/2 = 1.5. If your instructor wants you to answer one way over the other, then that's a personal preference. That has nothing to do with the accuracy of the answer.

[[/quote]Tell that to applied mathematicians.

You seem to be confusing computation with what mathematicians do on a day to day basis. They don't only just the various numerical methods for you; they prove the theorems underpinning those methods. They'll even find new theorems to prove when presented with problems from engineers and scientists.

Put 1.49... up there for all I care, it doesn't really change the fact that you don't seem to really know all that much about math except maybe the basic mechanics.

Edited, Nov 20th 2011 12:32am by Sweetums
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#1268Almalieque, Posted: Nov 20 2011 at 1:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Unless you're creating a completely random poll with random questions, then the actual poll is irrelevant.If the question were asked and you wanted to study HOW it was asked, then you would have a point. The question was NEVER asked.
#1269Almalieque, Posted: Nov 20 2011 at 1:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I doubled majored in Mathematics with the concentration of applied mathematics, so I assure you that I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a mathematician by far, especially with "use it or lose it" in effect, but I do know this much.
#1270 Nov 20 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
If you'll define what "done to 'social standards'" means in a way that is coherent and I'll start to believe that you understand the basic precepts of the English language. If it's not contradictory I might even think you have a clue.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#1271 Nov 20 2011 at 3:32 AM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Sweetums wrote:
If you'll define what "done to 'social standards'" means in a way that is coherent and I'll start to believe that you understand the basic precepts of the English language. If it's not contradictory I might even think you have a clue.


Well, I've already explained that I don't always use the right words, but I'll give it a whirl.

"Social standards" meant what people in a particular field of study tend to agree on how something should be done.
#1272 Nov 20 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Sweeetums wrote:
Tell that to applied mathematicians.

You seem to be confusing computation with what mathematicians do on a day to day basis. They don't only just the various numerical methods for you; they prove the theorems underpinning those methods. They'll even find new theorems to prove when presented with problems from engineers and scientists.

Put 1.49... up there for all I care, it doesn't really change the fact that you don't seem to really know all that much about math except maybe the basic mechanics.


I doubled majored in Mathematics with the concentration of applied mathematics, so I assure you that I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a mathematician by far, especially with "use it or lose it" in effect, but I do know this much.

At this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Abstract mathematicians prove and create theorems, Applied mathematicians solve problems.


Didn't you say before that your major was in Computer science, and that made you a science person? Smiley: dubious
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#1273 Nov 20 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Default
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Nilatai wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Sweeetums wrote:
Tell that to applied mathematicians.

You seem to be confusing computation with what mathematicians do on a day to day basis. They don't only just the various numerical methods for you; they prove the theorems underpinning those methods. They'll even find new theorems to prove when presented with problems from engineers and scientists.

Put 1.49... up there for all I care, it doesn't really change the fact that you don't seem to really know all that much about math except maybe the basic mechanics.


I doubled majored in Mathematics with the concentration of applied mathematics, so I assure you that I know what I'm talking about. I'm not a mathematician by far, especially with "use it or lose it" in effect, but I do know this much.

At this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Abstract mathematicians prove and create theorems, Applied mathematicians solve problems.


Didn't you say before that your major was in Computer science, and that made you a science person? Smiley: dubious
#1274 Nov 20 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Gothcha. Why do you suck so hard at both maths and science, then?
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#1275Almalieque, Posted: Nov 20 2011 at 9:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well it's sometimes difficult to explain things beyond a person's comprehension. I just roll with the punches.
#1276 Nov 20 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,268 posts
Yes, it's everyone else who has the problem... Smiley: dubious
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 47 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (47)