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Man arrested at 9/11 memorial for speaking out. Follow

#102 Sep 14 2011 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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As much as I loathe gbaji, he's great for situations like this, when nobody else has the motivation.
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#103 Sep 14 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:

Smiley: facepalm

I don't know either honestly. But seriously, you'd think this would be something you'd research before making the post then defending the guy all day. Smiley: rolleyes


What do you expect me to do, water board him and find out if he had an ulterior motive? It doesn't matter though, freedom of speech will cover his rights even if he's a jerk. Oh and I did research this story. All I said was I can't prove or disprove his motives. I'm not a seer that can see into his soul and be sure he isn't lying. I'm attempting to be impartial by giving an "if" here. All I'm getting for my trouble are biased accounts of people that are against the truther movement which is very telling. After all, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But no, we like to judge and convict based on a lone sound bite don't we.
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#104 Sep 14 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
The two planes seen by thousands of people live at the scene were just weather balloons.


This is a great place for a "your mom" joke. Just saying. If I were immature or something. Smiley: tongue
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#105 Sep 14 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I'm attempting to be impartial


You're failing, and your inability to perceive that (and accompanying haughtiness) is the core reason that you're encountering resistance.



Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:54pm by Eske
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#106 Sep 14 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:


What!? But you could clearly see the flashes of light in the windows as the building was collapsing! And we all know that you collapse a building by detonating explosions inside it after it's already started to collapse. What's wrong with you? You're just a hater of the TRUTH!!! Smiley: bah

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 7:42pm by gbaji


You forgot to add that all the jet fuel was consumed upon entry and somehow magic pixie dust melted the steel beams. On top of that, all 3 buildings fell straight down at the speed of gravity perfectly like God himself caught them on the way down. Jeez... who needs facts when you can make up facts.
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#107 Sep 14 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Oh and I did research this story.


How much research could you have done? Like Jophiel, I also did some googling to see if there was some kind of text account of what happened, and the only information on this story was the video you initial linked.

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All I said was I can't prove or disprove his motives.


How about his actions? Even without being able to hear the audio, it's clear that he's speaking very loudly to everyone around him when the police came and escorted him out of the area.

And are you really that naive that you don't understand the motives of an act like this? Trust me, he doesn't want to just help people learn about something. His motives are pretty much precisely those of a 3 year old child who keeps poking his mom on the leg and saying "mommy" over and over until she stops and pays attention to him. You honestly can't noodle out his motives?


Quote:
I'm not a seer that can see into his soul and be sure he isn't lying. I'm attempting to be impartial by giving an "if" here. All I'm getting for my trouble are biased accounts of people that are against the truther movement which is very telling. After all, we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But no, we like to judge and convict based on a lone sound bite don't we.


You're the one who made broad assumptions based on a "lone sound bite". You created the thread, remember? The rest of us are basically shaking our heads in disbelief and assuming you're either an incredibly naive person, or you are deliberately misrepresenting your own motives for posting the OP. I mean, it's just hard for me to believe that someone could honestly and with no ulterior motive or ties to the issue at hand (truther theories in this case) come across the information you did and come to the conclusion that this was some gross example of a violation of someone's right to free speech.


And I suspect I'm not the only person who has a hard time believing that.
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#108 Sep 14 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
gbaji wrote:


What!? But you could clearly see the flashes of light in the windows as the building was collapsing! And we all know that you collapse a building by detonating explosions inside it after it's already started to collapse. What's wrong with you? You're just a hater of the TRUTH!!! Smiley: bah

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 7:42pm by gbaji


You forgot to add that all the jet fuel was consumed upon entry and somehow magic pixie dust melted the steel beams. On top of that, all 3 buildings fell straight down at the speed of gravity perfectly like God himself caught them on the way down. Jeez... who needs facts when you can make up facts.


Interesting how someone who isn't a truther, and who claims to have not formed an opinion because he hasn't reviewed all the facts can manage to parrot that exact set of information.
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#109 Sep 14 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I'm attempting to be impartial by giving an "if" here.


That's what I thought other people were doing too, at least that's how I read it.

If protest dude was being nice and respectful, he'll have a case. If he was being confrontational, belligerent, and threatening he won't.

Or maybe they'll say he was being a meanie as a cover! Smiley: tinfoilhat

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
All I'm getting for my trouble are biased accounts of people that are against the truther movement which is very telling.


I'm all for the 'government isn't telling the whole truth' kind of thing, but the burden of proof is on the one with the unconventional theory. Smiley: wink
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#110 Sep 14 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
Eske Esquire wrote:
As much as I loathe gbaji, he's great for situations like this, when nobody else has the motivation.


My Kool-Aid.. You are on it. Smiley: mad
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#111 Sep 14 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:


How about his actions? Even without being able to hear the audio, it's clear that he's speaking very loudly to everyone around him when the police came and escorted him out of the area.

And are you really that naive that you don't understand the motives of an act like this? Trust me, he doesn't want to just help people learn about something. His motives are pretty much precisely those of a 3 year old child who keeps poking his mom on the leg and saying "mommy" over and over until she stops and pays attention to him. You honestly can't noodle out his motives?


It's no different than other forms of protesting like picketing for a strike or racial protests outside a building for attention to their cause. It's a tactic used for thousands of years. It's clear you don't support his tactics which is your choice. I'm not really fond of it either, but it does take balls to stand up for what you believe. I'm not certain if his goal was to cause a disturbance for the sake of it or to bring in other truthers to his cause. Scott works as an activist on a website promoting issues like 9/11. Maybe he just wanted to show the people that have doubts that a group is still fighting for the truth of the events on 9/11.


Quote:

You're the one who made broad assumptions based on a "lone sound bite". You created the thread, remember? The rest of us are basically shaking our heads in disbelief and assuming you're either an incredibly naive person, or you are deliberately misrepresenting your own motives for posting the OP. I mean, it's just hard for me to believe that someone could honestly and with no ulterior motive or ties to the issue at hand (truther theories in this case) come across the information you did and come to the conclusion that this was some gross example of a violation of someone's right to free speech.


And I suspect I'm not the only person who has a hard time believing that.


It's ironic because this story was on FOX news broadcast. That's how I heard about it. There are violations of the freedom of speech amendment all the time. It's my personal crusade to put a stop it. Whether or not you agree is not my concern. I've learned that you're incapable of being objective so it really doesn't shock me you can't understand my reasons here. It's ok though, I've wasted enough time debating this with you. Anyone who is naive enough to think that Romney is a good person clearly isn't a good judge of character.

Quote:
Interesting how someone who isn't a truther, and who claims to have not formed an opinion because he hasn't reviewed all the facts can manage to parrot that exact set of information.


I'm just being sarcastic like you were in your reply. The magic pixie dust should of been a clue, don't you think? Guess not... :P

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:30pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
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#112 Sep 14 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:


I'm all for the 'government isn't telling the whole truth' kind of thing, but the burden of proof is on the one with the unconventional theory. Smiley: wink


My God you're so right...we should all go searching for Bin laden's corpse so we put that dirty rumor to bed too. Then by magic and the power of Allah, rpg's magically shoot rainbows from the sky and hit a helicopter a few weeks later that just so happened to be carrying those same exact Seals that killed him. Coincidence, naaaaaahhh it coulnd't be that.

All joking aside, your argument is weak and a cop out. If there is a conspiracy no matter what it is, you're doing yourself and your country a disservice if you wait for the truth to come out.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Thomas Jefferson
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#113 Sep 14 2011 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
rpg's magically shoot rainbows from the sky and hit a helicopter a few weeks later that just so happened to be carrying those same exact Seals that killed him.

Smiley: disappointed
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If there is a conspiracy no matter what it is, you're doing yourself and your country a disservice if you wait for the truth to come out.

So it's my job to chase down the crackpots?

I suppose this makes life a lot easier for the crackpots who just have to say random shit and then claim the onus is on me to prove them wrong or else I'm a liberty hater.
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#114 Sep 14 2011 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are violations of the freedom of speech amendment all the time. It's my personal crusade to put a stop it.
Interesting claim. I don't remember your crusading about how Westboro protesters are only allowed to do their thing at certain times and from certain distances when dealing with military services.
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#115 Sep 14 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
All joking aside, your argument is weak and a cop out. If there is a conspiracy no matter what it is, you're doing yourself and your country a disservice if you wait for the truth to come out.


If that's what it is, then that's what it is. I have neither the time or the patience to track down all the crazy stuff out there. People play connect-the-dots all sorts of ways. Every now and again I hear something credible enough to make me pause, or look around.

This isn't one of those cases though.
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#116 Sep 14 2011 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:

So it's my job to chase down the crackpots?

I suppose this makes life a lot easier for the crackpots who just have to say random shit and then claim the onus is on me to prove them wrong or else I'm a liberty hater.


No, not really Joph. At least that's not what I do. What you should do is research issues like 9/11 for yourself and thus become your own crackpot if need be. Look at your statement again and you'll clearly see how much of a cop out it is. You're basically saying you can't think for yourself and whoever has the most experts and best speakers owns the truth. There are so many flaws with the way Bin Laden was killed and the destruction of the twin towers. It's like there is one glaring question mark where it's ignored out of the sake of national security. I'm just a part time researcher myself, but my personal experiences in the military have taught me a lot. If we were told to pull off a 9/11 in the military, we could do it honestly. All those people who spoke out about it were discredited, killed off, or hiding out of fear.

The CIA and the military have a history of false flag events in our history. Vietnam was the last event known by most vets as the Gulf of Tonkin. It was the excuse to get us involved into the war. The same goes for the Iraqi war and the rest of our Middle East wars. It's amusing to me how many people say how can this stuff happen, surely someone would talk, right? You do have people that talk. Gov. Jesse Ventura and other vets exposed the Gulf of the Tonkin incident. Others are scared for their lives, some are bought off. This applies to everything the government has their dirty hands in Joph. Why are we guarding opium fields in Afghanistan right now? Because we have our hands involved in drug trade. The stuff that happens outside the country's borders is enough to make your hair stand on end. I only wish I could talk about some of my personal stories where I've been forced to remain silent due to my security clearance oath. That's why I'm more sure of these other 'conspiracies" than some of you guys might be. I would never ask anyone to trust me or any source without a whole lot of researching though various databases and that doesn't mean a quick google search either.


Here is a youtube clip that explains why 9/11 happened. FYI, the theory is that radical Muslims did carry out the attack, but Bin Laden was working for the CIA as he has been since the Russia occupation of Afghanistan. Even if it was done by all Muslim radicals, it was pushed to fruition by these reasons.




lolgaxe wrote:
Interesting claim. I don't remember your crusading about how Westboro protesters are only allowed to do their thing at certain times and from certain distances when dealing with military services.


I wasn't on these forums at that time if that's what you're implying. I fail to see how this is relevant.

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. " Thomas Jefferson

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 11:11pm by ShadowedgeFFXI

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 11:24pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
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#117 Sep 14 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is bizarre; it's like watching gbaji morph into Jophiel in realtime.
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#118 Sep 14 2011 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
This has potential to provide a decent source of amusement.
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#119 Sep 14 2011 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I wasn't on these forums at that time if that's what you're implying.
You weren't around Zam in 2010, or the violations against their freedom of speech wasn't important enough for you to crusade for?
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#120 Sep 14 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
I know a few Ron Paul supporters in IRL & they're almost as nutty as Shadowedge.

I don't blame him for it, though. 10 years straight of FFXI would make anyone go crazy.
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#121 Sep 14 2011 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I only wish I could talk about some of my personal stories where I've been forced to remain silent due to my security clearance oath. That's why I'm more sure of these other 'conspiracies" than some of you guys might be. I would never ask anyone to trust me or any source without a whole lot of researching though various databases and that doesn't mean a quick google search either.


You know, I don't even know what to say right now. I have a close relative who was in special forces for a number of years before moving into the intelligence community. I have a healthy respect that we aren't told the whole truth about different things, but I never got anywhere near this much crazy from him.
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#122 Sep 14 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Look at your statement again and you'll clearly see how much of a cop out it is. You're basically saying you can't think for yourself...

lolirony.

Oh no! Please don't call me a sheep! Why, a cutting remark like that will surely scare me into thinking your way! Smiley: laugh

Quote:
The CIA and the military have a history of false flag events in our history.

This is what's known as leading someone off the path and trying to convince them of Point A by throwing about a bunch of Points B-M. You could have rock solid proof that the moon landing was a hoax and it wouldn't be the first step towards validating 9/11 tinfoil Trutherism.

Quote:
I only wish I could talk about some of my personal stories where I've been forced to remain silent due to my security clearance oath. That's why I'm more sure of these other 'conspiracies" than some of you guys might be.

Remember that one guy in some religion thread who babbled about oaths and Rosicrucians and how he knew the truth but couldn't tell us at the peril of his own life?

That guy was pretty good times.

Anyway, yeah sure. If I don't believe the way you do, it's only because I must not have researched it enough (or I'm a sheep! eek!) and you could totally tell us all except for your oaths. Well, that was all very convincing, let me tell ya.

This is where you say "Don't let this convince you, look for yourself (until you agree with me)!"

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 1:01am by Jophiel
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#123 Sep 15 2011 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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#124 Sep 15 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
Thanks for the link Allegory, the crazy within' is highly amusing.

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#125 Sep 15 2011 at 5:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting how someone who isn't a truther, and who claims to have not formed an opinion because he hasn't reviewed all the facts can manage to parrot that exact set of information.

Reminds me of this guy I know who swore he wasn't really a Birther, he just recited chapter & verse from the Birther Bible in every thread like a wind-up doll.
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#126 Sep 15 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:


You realize that using Youtube videos as sources, or as a way of expressing your views, does not help your case, right?

You don't come off well when you challenge others to be as "informed" as you are, and then link to Youtube. Academic sources, pier-reviewed journals, or testimony by respected and documented experts are really the only way to go.

I mean, you got your facts wrong about the Seal team in the Chinook already. You got them wrong in your haste and clear-as-day desire to be able cry conspiracy. Why should we take anything you say remotely seriously?

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 9:50am by Eske
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#127 Sep 15 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
blah blah blah, youtube, blah blah blah.
So in this thread Ron Paul warned of is the attack, but in another thread, it was an inside job? Make up your mind.


Edited, Sep 15th 2011 10:38am by Lubriderm
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#128 Sep 15 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Interesting how someone who isn't a truther, and who claims to have not formed an opinion because he hasn't reviewed all the facts can manage to parrot that exact set of information.

Reminds me of this guy I know who swore he wasn't really a Birther, he just recited chapter & verse from the Birther Bible in every thread like a wind-up doll.


Really Joph?

It's not even remotely the same thing. Only fringe conspiracy theorists accept the truther ideas because they've been thoroughly examined and dismissed. The only thing that kept the birther thing in the mainstream was that the government was actually hiding the data needed to make an assessment. Once Obama did the right thing, everyone (except the fringe folks I assume) dropped the issue. You're really going to compare those? You'd have a point if I were still today insisting that there isn't sufficient evidence. But I'm not. So don't lump me in with the nutters, ok?
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#129 Sep 15 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
AHAHAHAHA, @#%^ man, the evidence was there. Your harping on about it is exactly the same. In both cases they were thoroughly examined and dismissed except by the nuts.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:10pm by Xsarus
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#130 Sep 15 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Really Joph?

Really.

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It's not even remotely the same thing.

Yeah, you just recited chapter and verse from St. Berg and St. Taitz over and over again like a little tape recorder but it's not at all the same!

Quote:
government was actually hiding the data

Smiley: laughSmiley: tinfoilhatSmiley: laugh It's funny because it's so sad...

I bet those Truther stomp their little feet and pout when they're compared to Moon Landing Hoaxers.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:50pm by Jophiel
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#131 Sep 15 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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While reading this thread "American Idiot" by Green Day came up on my iTunes shuffle.

God proven.



Edited, Sep 15th 2011 3:57pm by Bardalicious
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#132 Sep 15 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
AHAHAHAHA, @#%^ man, the evidence was there. Your harping on about it is exactly the same. In both cases they were thoroughly examined and dismissed except by the nuts.


Sigh. What makes something a fringe conspiracy theory is when there is no amount of evidence which can be provided which will satisfy those demanding to "know the truth". That is clearly the case with the truthers. That is clearly *not* the case with the 99.9999% of those who were demanding to see Obama's full long form birth certificate.


The proof is that once he provided that one document which we were asking for all along, we were satisfied. So for those people (including me) it was not about some crazy conspiracy theory, but a legitimate belief that the birth data he originally provided was insufficient. What we were asking for was not some impossible to obtain thing, and upon him providing it, we dropped the issue.

WTF?
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#133 Sep 15 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sigh. What makes something a fringe conspiracy theory is when there is no amount of evidence which can be provided which will satisfy those demanding to "know the truth".


According to this definition that you just made up?

Oh. Okay.
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#134 Sep 15 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing that made it fringe for me was when people were still denying it after the Republican Governor inspected the document. Seems weird that there were people that wouldn't trust a member of their own party to do something that simple.
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#135 Sep 15 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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#136 Sep 15 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just curious, would you listen if 9/11 could be proved scientifically that it was an inside job? As for this guy, he wasn't attacking anyone there or their deceased families. I'm offended that you throw this guy into the same group as Westboro church. This guy is asking for the truth to be heard out of respect for the fallen and that church is attacking fallen soldiers and calling them faggots. That's a fundamental difference in scope to say the least. As for the Holocaust, who is denying that besides Iran? lol Oh wait, you mean that old geezer that went into the museum with a gun. Again that's not freedom of speech when you hurt others though violence so the point is moot.


I would listen if some concrete scientific evidence was put forth, but so far, none has, and from a scientific POV, the official story checks out. Again, as far as the respect thing goes, if he has a theory, then he should go about proving it instead of just yelling, "Tell us the truth". If he can't prove it, then his yelling is pointless and amounts to just being too ignorant or too gullible to change his mind. I swear, it's easier to talk sense into hardcore right-wing christians than "truthers".
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#137 Sep 15 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Really Joph?

Really.

Quote:
It's not even remotely the same thing.

Yeah, you just recited chapter and verse from St. Berg and St. Taitz over and over again like a little tape recorder but it's not at all the same!

Quote:
government was actually hiding the data

Smiley: laughSmiley: tinfoilhatSmiley: laugh It's funny because it's so sad...

I bet those Truther stomp their little feet and pout when they're compared to Moon Landing Hoaxers.

I'd like to see Buzz Aldrin slug a few of them.
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#138 Sep 15 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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#139 Sep 15 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Sigh. What makes something a fringe conspiracy theory is when there is no amount of evidence which can be provided which will satisfy those demanding to "know the truth". That is clearly the case with the truthers. That is clearly *not* the case with the 99.9999% of those who were demanding to see Obama's full long form birth certificate.

The proof is that once he provided that one document which we were asking for all along, we were satisfied.

I'm going to completely ignore the line a jokes that involves pointing out how he provided a birth certificate from the very beginning and people kept modifying their demands each time he met them.

Instead I'm going to focus on that last part. It seems to me that you accept that he has at some point proven to your satisfaction his natural U.S. citizenship to you, correct?

Ok, here's the thing. To the majority of birthers, he still hasn't. It may no longer be profitable to show them dancing around crazily in the news, but absolutely nothing has changed since the Donald Trump fiasco. If I drive south on the highway near where I live I will still see a sign that says "Where's the birth certificate" paid for by world net daily. He might have strangely convinced you, but everyone who doubted him stills doubts him. There is no threshold of proof that will please them.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 7:53pm by Allegory
#140 Sep 15 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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Well, Obama still hasn't personally handed varus a sealed, time-stamped Official Long Form Birth Certificate yet, so there is plenty of doubt.
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#141 Sep 16 2011 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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I never understand why people can get upset over someone else saying something to the point of banning it (Ok, I used to understand it, but this way makes me feel like a big boy). As I understand it certain things like yelling fire in a movie theater (easiest example to sight I aim low) are banned due to inciting a panic. To me, it feels like expressing your opinion, even if it is unpopular and at an emotional sight, should be protected. Westbro picketing funerals is unpleasant but I have come to realize that we really shouldn't be exclusive with who gets to say what and where. Give someone an inch and they will use our legal system to get a mile.

I mean, if the guy was getting in people's faces and attempting to incite a riot, sure, that is a sign to at least remove him and restrain him from the area (unless he agrees to not start an uproar (in court)) until he agrees to certain terms. However, if he is just standing around shouting off crazy things then he isn't hurting anyone. If someone gets their feelings hurt, well, they should grow up.


Very unrelated (different country, still about rights to speech) but still quasi-relevant: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/13/internet-troll-jailed-mocking-teenagers

The dude was an @#%^ but again, you have the right to be an @#%^. The government shouldn't be principal punishing us for hurting others feelings.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 2:52am by decayed
#142 Sep 16 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
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I know how you feel.
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#143 Sep 16 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
I'm going to completely ignore the line a jokes that involves pointing out how he provided a birth certificate from the very beginning and people kept modifying their demands each time he met them.


The demands for a full long form birth certificate were consistent and never changed. For the vast majority of people who cared at all about this issue, it was always about a belief that the documentation he provided was not sufficient to prove natural born citizenship status.

Quote:
Instead I'm going to focus on that last part. It seems to me that you accept that he has at some point proven to your satisfaction his natural U.S. citizenship to you, correct?


Of course. Me and everyone who isn't a nutty conspiracy theorist. The problem is that you are conflating the two groups. The fact that there exist a small number of people for whom no evidence will ever suffice does not invalidate the view of a larger group that there is such evidence and it could easily be examined, but for some reason it's being hidden instead. Once that was no longer the case, that group was satisfied and moved on.

Quote:
Ok, here's the thing. To the majority of birthers, he still hasn't.


Who? And aren't you playing with the term "birther" now? If before Obama provided his long form birth certificate every single person demanding that he do so was labeled a "birther" (as I was on many occasions), then I think it's overwhelmingly true that the vast majority of "birthers" were satisfied by the long form birth certificate. If you're now attempting to change the definition of birther to mean only the conspiracy theorists for whom no evidence will ever suffice, then that's a whole different story. I was never a member of that group, and most of the people demanding to see Obana's full birth certificate were never a member of that group.

In either case, my own position on the issue was never that of a conspiracy theorist, right? So either most "birthers" had a legitimate question which had a real answer *or* most of those who were labeled "birthers" never were. Pick one.


Quote:
It may no longer be profitable to show them dancing around crazily in the news, but absolutely nothing has changed since the Donald Trump fiasco. If I drive south on the highway near where I live I will still see a sign that says "Where's the birth certificate" paid for by world net daily. He might have strangely convinced you, but everyone who doubted him stills doubts him. There is no threshold of proof that will please them.


Who is this "everyone" you imagine to exist? I have not heard a single person make a claim that Obama isn't a natural born citizen since he presented his long form birth certificate. I'm pretty sure you haven't either. You have to actively go looking for the small number of true nutters to find anyone still trying to make that argument. Hell. When was the last time we had a thread about this? When was the last time it was mentioned in the news?


I think you are grossly misrepresenting (or just plain misunderstand yourself) the true numbers of people for whom the only issue they had was an honest belief that the documentation Obama initially provided was not sufficient. Do you have any evidence that there are even close to as many people today who even care about this anymore? Because the near total lack of *any* mention of this after years of nearly constant talk about it would seem to suggest you are wrong.
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#144 Sep 16 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Who? And aren't you playing with the term "birther" now? If before Obama provided his long form birth certificate every single person demanding that he do so was labeled a "birther" (as I was on many occasions), then I think it's overwhelmingly true that the vast majority of "birthers" were satisfied by the long form birth certificate. If you're now attempting to change the definition of birther to mean only the conspiracy theorists for whom no evidence will ever suffice, then that's a whole different story. I was never a member of that group, and most of the people demanding to see Obana's full birth certificate were never a member of that group.


Sure they were. And you were. They're all conspiracy theorists, some are just more dedicated.
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#145 Sep 16 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I think you are grossly misrepresenting (or just plain misunderstand yourself) the true numbers of people for whom the only issue they had was an honest belief that the documentation Obama initially provided was not sufficient. Do you have any evidence that there are even close to as many people today who even care about this anymore? Because the near total lack of *any* mention of this after years of nearly constant talk about it would seem to suggest you are wrong.

Washington Post poll immediately after the release puts it at 10%, down from 20% a year ago. For Republicans and Conservatives the percentage drop was similar, cut in half.

I'll retract my comment "To the majority of birthers, he still hasn't," as inaccurate if you'd similar do so with "I think it's overwhelmingly true that the vast majority of "birthers" were satisfied by the long form birth certificate."
#146 Sep 16 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Me and everyone who isn't a nutty conspiracy theorist. The problem is that you are conflating the two groups.

Smiley: grin
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#147 Sep 16 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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lol @ Joph.

Quote:
The demands for a full long form birth certificate were consistent and never changed. For the vast majority of people who cared at all about this issue, it was always about a belief that the documentation he provided was not sufficient to prove natural born citizenship status.


The only people who ever cared about this were f*cking morons who were trying to distract from issues actually worth talking about. He provided the legal document from the start. What people wanted to see, for some stupid, absurd reason, was the legally invalid document.
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#148 Sep 16 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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I saw the second video of what the guy actually did, and the whole thing (especially the little "are you going man, yeah man, I'm going, roll the camera" whispers before he starts) reeks of attention whoring.

There are times and places to address complaints. Don't walk into a group of people honoring the dead and start yelling sh*t, true or no.

As for if the police did the right thing, ask yourself what would have happened if they did not intervene. Yelling guy would have gotten knocked the @#%^ out and thrown out of the barricades.
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#149 Sep 16 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I think you are grossly misrepresenting (or just plain misunderstand yourself) the true numbers of people for whom the only issue they had was an honest belief that the documentation Obama initially provided was not sufficient. Do you have any evidence that there are even close to as many people today who even care about this anymore? Because the near total lack of *any* mention of this after years of nearly constant talk about it would seem to suggest you are wrong.

Washington Post poll immediately after the release puts it at 10%, down from 20% a year ago. For Republicans and Conservatives the percentage drop was similar, cut in half.


Can you even find one more recent? Or maybe the number has shrunk so low that no one bothers to poll on it? This was one week after the release of the long form certificate. You don't think it might have gone down to pretty close to zero by now?

Quote:
I'll retract my comment "To the majority of birthers, he still hasn't," as inaccurate if you'd similar do so with "I think it's overwhelmingly true that the vast majority of "birthers" were satisfied by the long form birth certificate."


You're playing with the word "birther" again. I was talking about the full set of those who believed that he should disclose the full long form birth certificate to prove natural born citizenship status. That's what my position was all along. So if I'm called a birther (and I was and still am), then your statement must be applied to that full group and not just those who believed he wasn't born in the US (which is what the poll actually asked).

I was talking about that larger group. My statement was about that larger group. And the vast majority of that group has been satisfied by the long form certificate. If this wasn't true, you'd still be reading news articles about it every other week. I'm not sure what the hell you want. This is such a contrived argument that I don't know even where to start with it. The massive dropping of the issue is proof that it *wasn't* a crazy conspiracy theory. There was an obtainable amount of evidence which would satisfy those people. And it did. End of story.
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#150 Sep 16 2011 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
The demands for a full long form birth certificate were consistent and never changed. For the vast majority of people who cared at all about this issue, it was always about a belief that the documentation he provided was not sufficient to prove natural born citizenship status.


The only people who ever cared about this were f*cking morons who were trying to distract from issues actually worth talking about.


If this were true, the issue wouldn't have been dropped once the long form was provided. Can't you even consider the possibility that for those not invested in protecting Obama at all costs, this was a legitimate question of documentation of a constitutionally requirement to hold the office?

Quote:
He provided the legal document from the start.


He provided a legal document. Well, and technically, he didn't do that either. A third party released a copy of a legal document online. That's not normally how legal documents are presented, are they? Why not provide the same form? Why not simply present it when the issue first came up? Could have saved us all a hell of a lot of time and trouble.

Quote:
What people wanted to see, for some stupid, absurd reason, was the legally invalid document.


Huh? A full long form birth certificate is less legally valid than the digital copy with only some information on it? I think the point most people miss is that when this issue first started, most people just expected that Obama would produce a birth certificate, some political types would examine it and declare it legit, and we'd all move on. That's all he had to do. But instead he did a weird half measure and relied on his buddies in the liberal media to declare the issue resolved.


Didn't work out so well though, did it? No matter how much some of you may insist that the document he originally provided was sufficient, it clearly wasn't. The fact that another more complete document existed and that this *was* sufficient shows that he should have just done that in the first place. The issue was one entirely of Obama's own making. We can speculate about why he chose to do that, but it's absolutely his choice and his fault.
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#151 Sep 16 2011 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Can you even find one more recent? Or maybe the number has shrunk so low that no one bothers to poll on it? This was one week after the release of the long form certificate. You don't think it might have gone down to pretty close to zero by now?

I'd just as likely assume that it went up given the amount of time people have had to contrive reasons why it's insufficient. I'm fine with a 3 month old poll, and if you want to assert that it's gone down even more then the onus is on you to find one showing that.
gbaji wrote:
I was talking about that larger group. My statement was about that larger group. And the vast majority of that group has been satisfied by the long form certificate.

But it isn't the larger group as the poll shows. After the long form birth certificate was released it still wasn't good enough for half of those who originally asserted he was born outside the U.S.

It looks like you're trying to make the point that most of the people who wanted only the long form certificate were convinced when he released the long form certificate, in which case duh--it's an oxymoron. All of the people who only wanted the long form certificate were convinced after it was released by definition. If they weren't convinced after the release, then clearly it was never all they needed in the first place. That isn't any more meaningful than saying all people who are going to vote Democrat did vote Democrat.

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