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#52 Sep 09 2011 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, he mentioned a bridge, so that's something.


OMG the bridge to no where is back!!!!
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#53 Sep 09 2011 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Kentucky to Ohio is now "nowhere."

Sounds about right.
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#54 Sep 10 2011 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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decayed wrote:
So its a political maneuver? Neat!
Apparently it's unheard of for some people that politicians are, in fact, politicians.


Well, he IS a democrat.

rdmcandie wrote:
Seems a lot more politically motivated then economically motivated.

Option 1.

The bills passes (most likely not in full), Obama is seen as a president who does seem to get, on top of that he managed to get Washington to work together on something that really needs to be fixed.

Option 2.

The bill fails, republicans are seen as anti job creation, Obama then takes this to the campaign trail touting he had a plan in place that could be easily paid for that created jobs and offered companies tax relief to do so.

Either way Obama wins, and most importantly in the independent section.

My own opinion is there is a lot of fluff in the bill, and the majority of the jobs appear to be temporary infrastructure projects. The shining point to me is the tax credit for businesses to hire people who have been unemployed for 6 months or more. (then again that probably only stands out because the Premier of Ontario just decided to announce a tax credit for companies to hire new immigrants, not all Ontarians.)



The third option is that the bill passes and because it is filled with austerity measures, the economy tanks and the republicans say, "See, Obama caused the economy to die!"

I don't think voters have a strong enough memory to realize that the economy tanked because of republican ideals which were suggested by democrats. Then again, the republicans can always say that the democrats just used the wrong kinds of tax cuts or something.


Finally I am convinced that Gbaji uses this forum as a practice for twisting words and pointing fingers.
Edited, Sep 10th 2011 8:24am by decayed

Edited, Sep 10th 2011 8:27am by decayed
#55 Sep 10 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm baffled as to why gbaji thinks tax cuts to small business would be bad.
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#56 Sep 10 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
I'm baffled as to why gbaji thinks tax cuts to small business would be bad.

Because Obama is asking for them. This means he hates big business!
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#57 Sep 12 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
I'm baffled as to why gbaji thinks tax cuts to small business would be bad.


I'm baffled as to why you seem to think that's all that's in this bill. What part of me saying earlier that there are some good things in here but sufficient poison pills to make the GOP oppose it did you not get? There's just enough of that stuff so that if/when the GOP opposes it the Dems can jump up and down (as many libs on this forum are doing) and declare that "The GOP opposes tax cuts for small businesses and veterans!!!!", when it's really about the GOP opposing all the other wasteful and ill defined "stimulus" spending in the same bill.

Why not *just* do the tax cuts and incentives? If that's what you're holding the GOP to, then that must be the most important parts of this plan, right? But let me go out on a limb and suspect that if the GOP were to counter with a bill that had every single (real) tax cut in this proposal but which eliminated all of the spending, the Dems would still howl about it. And you'd be right there with them, parroting whatever talking points they choose to use.


It's pure politics. This plan has nothing to do with economic recovery or jobs.
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#58 Sep 12 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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well i wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the economy or jobs. When you half-*** something you are still at least going half way. But ya its purely political, and depending on the cuts they claim to want to announce it could be a check mate move where Obama wins regardless. (at least with the independent/undecided voters, the only voters that actually matter in politics.)

Quote:


it's really about the GOP opposing all the other wasteful and ill defined "stimulus" spending in the same bill.


So not only do you hate small business tax cuts, you also hate schools, hospitals and other basic infrastructure society requires.

Edited, Sep 12th 2011 5:26pm by rdmcandie
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#59 Sep 12 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
well i wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the economy or jobs. When you half-*** something you are still at least going half way. But ya its purely political, and depending on the cuts they claim to want to announce it could be a check mate move where Obama wins regardless. (at least with the independent/undecided voters, the only voters that actually matter in politics.)


Nah. There's a pretty easy way for the GOP to win, and they've got exactly the correct position and tools to do it. Remember, this is a jobs "plan". It's not yet a bill. Interestingly enough, Obama's staff doesn't appear to have even started working with any members of congress to write any actual legislation. So this is so far just the political equivalent of an idea sketched on the back of a napkin.

What the GOP should do is write the bill for the President. Make it sound like it hits all the points the President asked for, but do it "their way" so to speak. Then you effectively reverse the political aspect of this. You have to remember that much of the debate right now is over rhetoric. What is a "tax cut", what is a "small business", what is "infrastructure spending"? The GOP could use that to their advantage for a change and basically hoist Obama on his own petard. It would put the Dems in the position of having to oppose their own jobs plan.

Funny! We'll probably see some variation of this to be honest. The GOP will propose their version of the jobs plan, and the Dems will as well. Then much bickering will ensue. I suppose there's some slim chance that Obama comes out looking slightly better in all of that, but I still don't think it raises him above someone who's "clean" and coming in from outside (ie: pretty much any GOP presidential candidate).

I don't fault Obama for trying this though. It's pretty much the only shot he's got left.
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#60 Sep 12 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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it's really about the GOP opposing all the other wasteful and ill defined "stimulus" spending in the same bill.


So not only do you hate small business tax cuts, you also hate schools, hospitals and other basic infrastructure society requires.


I'd oppose giving everyone in the country a free pony too! I'm just such a meanie! Reasoning is the same though: As nice as it might be to spend money on those things, this is supposed to be about creating jobs as part of helping the economy recover.

As I pointed out earlier (I'm pretty sure anyway!), what matters is not just the creation of jobs, but the creation of productive jobs. The economy will only recover as a result of job creation *if* those jobs generate more productive value to the economy than they cost the economy to create. Should be obvious if you stop and think about it, but it's interesting how this kinda gets lost in the discussion most of the time. If the jobs you create cost more than they generate, then when the money runs out, the jobs will disappear and you'll have to spend more money to create more jobs again. But each time through this cycle, you've reduced the total amount of money you have potentially to do this.


It's a losing process. Over time we will weaken and impoverish our economy, not strengthen and grow it. I know that it seems easier and more straightforward to just direct funds via government to create jobs, but in order for the economy to grow we have to trust that the private market will create them and let them do that. It's scary to many people because it feels like letting go of the wheel, but believe it or not, it's what is needed for economic recovery. And what Obama proposes, while not entirely harmful, wont actually help. It'll just shuffle money around at best and cost us money at worst.
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#61 Sep 12 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Funny! We'll probably see some variation of this to be honest. The GOP will propose their version of the jobs plan, and the Dems will as well. Then much bickering will ensue. I suppose there's some slim chance that Obama comes out looking slightly better in all of that, but I still don't think it raises him above someone who's "clean" and coming in from outside


You mean the ones who have to cater to the right wing loonies who call them selves the Tea Party. The GOP is sunk, mostly due to the reception of the Tea Party candidates lack of well anything in Congress. I personally don't like Obama either I think he has been a joke of a president (mostly because he is 90% fluff), you are fooling yourself if you think the collection of wannabes the GOP has assembled has any hope of winning next november. I doubt it will be as big a blow out as 08 was, but its still not going to be a contest.

At least people already know what they will get with Obama. Of course, thanks to the stagnant congress, (both sides are really to blame but since the dems lost control of congress/senate nothing Obama has played for has really come together.) his elaborate plans didn't really go anywhere.

I also think I said this before, but placing blame on Presidents is ******* stupid. Its not his fault the children in Congress can't play nice. Similar to the latter years of the Bush administration. Fix your **** Congress and overall your political system, I mean I love watching you and Joph toss your respective groups talking points around, quoting your biased news sources like its the end all be all of printed information.

Its pathetic your country is split in two, with venom being sprayed from both sides. Americans want Jobs, Obama has a half assed plan, and no one else does.

Your congress is crap, not your president.
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#62 Sep 12 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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I know that it seems easier and more straightforward to just direct funds via government to create jobs, but in order for the economy to grow we have to trust that the private market will create them and let them do that.


The private sector is screwed right now and is already very loosely taxed. The rich bastards you claim create jobs are sitting on Trillions of liquid assets and doing nothing with it. The private sector has abandoned the USA and moved to newly lucrative places like China, India, Brazil, Canada, and Australia. The only way to get hem to want to come back is to get people spending money again, with 9% of the population unemployed, and likely another 9+% of the population Under Employed people are not spending money, and since money isn't moving jobs aren't either.

Fix Consumer Confidence, that is what drives the economy, a healthy middle class means a healthy country.
Right now the American Middle class is screwed and disappearing at a fast rate. That is why you need to make jobs, so these people will spend money.

Private sector spending is a joke, and it always has been.
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#63 Sep 12 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm baffled as to why you seem to think that's all that's in this bill. What part of me saying earlier that there are some good things in here but sufficient poison pills to make the GOP oppose it did you not get?

The part where you claimed the tax cuts were a grand mixture of rewarding Democratic allies and punishing their enemies and those small business tax cuts just proved it because they're not for big business.

I'll happily admit that's not the only thing in the bill but you've still failed to make any convincing argument supporting your claim.

gbaji wrote:
Obama's staff doesn't appear to have even started working with any members of congress to write any actual legislation. So this is so far just the political equivalent of an idea sketched on the back of a napkin.
The super biased and liberal hack talking point rag, The Hill, wrote:
President Obama on Monday produced a hard copy of the jobs bill he is sending to Congress, holding it up in a Rose Garden event and challenging lawmakers to put politics aside and pass the measure.
[...]
Obama, seeking a rally after a summer of sinking approval numbers and universally maligned Washington gridlock, told Congress "here it is," and adding he wanted "no games, no politics, no delays."

Heh.

Edited, Sep 12th 2011 5:41pm by Jophiel
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#64 Sep 12 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm baffled as to why you seem to think that's all that's in this bill. What part of me saying earlier that there are some good things in here but sufficient poison pills to make the GOP oppose it did you not get?

The part where you claimed the tax cuts were a grand mixture of rewarding Democratic allies and punishing their enemies and those small business tax cuts just proved it because they're not for big business.


And tax cuts for small businesses constituted 100% of the proposed changes (this is the second time I've asked you this btw)?

Quote:
I'll happily admit that's not the only thing in the bill but you've still failed to make any convincing argument supporting your claim.


Which claim? That it's a bad plan because it lumps a whole ton of bad stuff in with a smattering of good so that the Dems can blame anyone who opposes it by saying that they're opposed to small businesses or veterans? My assumption that "tax cuts" will include "tax credits" and will be used for a whole **** of a lot more than just payroll tax deductions for small businesses?


What you're seeing is "boy who cried wolf" syndrome Joph. After the half dozenth time the Dems have played the same "but X% of the bill is tax cuts. Why are you opposing it? You like tax cuts!!!", I have very little faith in any sort of honesty from the Dems in terms of how they describe a bill they are proposing and what they actually put into the bill later on. Maybe if your party hadn't played the whole "finish the legislation at the 11th hour then call for a vote before anyone can read it" game so many times, they wouldn't have so many people unwilling to trust them.


Sure they just want to give people tax cuts. Sure. Cause they've been so upfront and honest with their use of the phrase "tax cuts" in the past.
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#65 Sep 12 2011 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And tax cuts for small businesses constituted 100% of the proposed changes (this is the second time I've asked you this btw)?

Wow, are you going to marry that strawman? I mean, you've got yourself balls deep in it like a motherfucker. I hope you at least bought it dinner first.

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Which claim?

Really? This is the game you need to play now? That desperate that soon?

Smiley: disappointed
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#66 Sep 12 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like how giving Republicans what they want is a "compromise" but anything the Dems want is a "poison pill". The only viable option is to fully capitulate to the GOP, eh?
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#67 Sep 12 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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I know that it seems easier and more straightforward to just direct funds via government to create jobs, but in order for the economy to grow we have to trust that the private market will create them and let them do that.


The private sector is screwed right now and is already very loosely taxed. The rich bastards you claim create jobs are sitting on Trillions of liquid assets and doing nothing with it.


Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think that being rich and being greedy, they wouldn't just sit on so much money? Wouldn't they want to use it to make more money for themselves? So why aren't they?

Quote:
The private sector has abandoned the USA and moved to newly lucrative places like China, India, Brazil, Canada, and Australia.


Ah. So you do understand why? It's because rich people invest their money in places where their investments are more likely to be lucrative. So isn't the obvious solution to make the USA a more lucrative place to invest? At the very least, shouldn't we entertain the possibility that doing things that make said investment less lucrative might just have something to do with those rich people not creating jobs?


Quote:
The only way to get hem to want to come back is to get people spending money again, with 9% of the population unemployed, and likely another 9+% of the population Under Employed people are not spending money, and since money isn't moving jobs aren't either.


Consumption really isn't the problem though. I know that lots of people keep saying it is, but that's a symptom of the problem, not the cause. It's kind of a chicken and egg issue, right? If you employ more people, they'll have more money and buy stuff, which allows the business community to continue employing them. But that only works if they're employed making stuff that other people are buying. I really can't stress this enough. It's why I keep harping about "productive jobs".

If you pay people to do stuff that you nor I want or are willing to pay for (the result, not the salary itself), then the job wont be self sustaining and we wont see economic recovery as a result of it existing. If those people are employed making stuff other people buy (for example), then there is much greater economic effect. Because not only do we get the economic effects of their income being spent in the economy, but we get the effect of their labor as something others can spend their incomes on.


I just keep trying to explain this concept on this board, and it feels like I'm just not getting it through. And the reason why the private sector is important is because private sector jobs (especially those unburdened by government subsidies and whatnot) are much much more likely to result in those "productive jobs" that we need than the public sector is.

Quote:
Fix Consumer Confidence, that is what drives the economy, a healthy middle class means a healthy country.


Those aren't connected to each other though. Not directly. Are you aware that in the 2010 to early 2011 time frame consumption rates were pretty healthy? As a result of pumping money into the demand side of the economy for a couple years, we were artificially keeping consumption at decent levels. But as I (and most conservatives) predicted, once the money runs out, the effect disappears. It's not sustainable.

You need useful productivity to match consumption demand. And when this happens as a result of jobs being created in the free market, those two will tend to match each other nicely.

Quote:
Right now the American Middle class is screwed and disappearing at a fast rate. That is why you need to make jobs, so these people will spend money.


This is a much broader and longer term statement though. I'll point out again that very few people working for small businesses are what we'd call middle class. Focusing our efforts on creating jobs for the sake of being able to point to a number and say we've made things better just seems counter productive. This jobs bill will create some jobs. But most of the jobs it'll create are low income subsistence level jobs (except for the union jobs it'll create as well, but that's another subject).

They wont last. And they certainly wont help the middle class grow.

Quote:
Private sector spending is a joke, and it always has been.


What is "private sector spending"? The private sector seeks to make a profit. It does this by hiring people to do things which produce a greater economic value than the cost of the labor itself. The net result is that people have jobs, the government gets some tax revenue, and the economy grows. It's not about how much money it "spends", and it's bizarre that you'd even use that phrase. It suggests you really have no clue what the role of the private sector is and are treating everything through the lens of public spending.


That's *not* normal. The idea that you should spend money to create jobs is not normal. Jobs should make money, not cost it.
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#68 Sep 12 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
I like how giving Republicans what they want is a "compromise" but anything the Dems want is a "poison pill". The only viable option is to fully capitulate to the GOP, eh?


The GOP is at least honest about what things they want and what things they're willing to compromise on. The Dems constantly attempt to relabel what they want to make it seem like what the GOP wants so that they can claim that they're not really getting anything so there's no need to compromise at all.

What do you think the whole "But X% of the bill is tax cuts" is about? You really don't see the political tactic being used? That seems remarkably naive to me.
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#69 Sep 12 2011 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The GOP is at least honest about what things they want and what things they're willing to compromise on.

Nothing? Smiley: laugh



Edited, Sep 12th 2011 9:34pm by Jophiel
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#70 Sep 12 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
In Gbaji's USA, the poor and middle class should bend over and take it up the **** chute because the rich want us to. After all, what's good for the rich is good for everyone.

At what point does social responsibility kick in? Never in Gbajiland.
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#71 Sep 12 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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#72 Sep 13 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think that being rich and being greedy, they wouldn't just sit on so much money? Wouldn't they want to use it to make more money for themselves? So why aren't they?


They are. They just aren't doing it in the USA.

Quote:
It's because rich people invest their money in places where their investments are more likely to be lucrative. So isn't the obvious solution to make the USA a more lucrative place to invest?


Hard to make money when people are to afraid to spend it, because 1. They aren't sure if they will have a job tomorrow, and 2. because the fragile economy could **** the bed at any time in the foreseeable future.

Quote:
If you pay people to do stuff that you nor I want or are willing to pay for (the result, not the salary itself), then the job wont be self sustaining and we wont see economic recovery as a result of it existing. If those people are employed making stuff other people buy (for example), then there is much greater economic effect.


You mean like the jobs the private sector has been moving out of the states since the 80's?



Quote:

Those aren't connected to each other though. Not directly. Are you aware that in the 2010 to early 2011 time frame consumption rates were pretty healthy? As a result of pumping money into the demand side of the economy for a couple years, we were artificially keeping consumption at decent levels. But as I (and most conservatives) predicted, once the money runs out, the effect disappears. It's not sustainable.
So you do need a strong consumer confidence then? I am confused are you agreeing with me?
Quote:

This jobs bill will create some jobs. But most of the jobs it'll create are low income subsistence level jobs (except for the union jobs it'll create as well, but that's another subject).

What the **** do you think the middle class is built on?

Quote:
That's *not* normal. The idea that you should spend money to create jobs is not normal. Jobs should make money, not cost it.


Each year the American government spends billions (so to speak) so the private sector can create jobs....trouble is, they aren't and when they do most cases it is outside of you country. Everything has a price tag, you should know this being a hard line conservative. But that gets lost in the rhetoric usually doesn't it. If spending money to help companies afford to hire more people can't work, how do you propose that solid tax breaks do....in the end companies net the same returns so what you are really trying to say is to stop giving the private sector huge tax breaks since spending money into it isn't normal? I can agree with that.
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#73varusword75, Posted: Sep 14 2011 at 9:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) r2d2,
#74 Sep 14 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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The price tag being "Do it our way or we ruin everything" apparently.
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#75varusword75, Posted: Sep 14 2011 at 10:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lagaga,
#76 Sep 14 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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#77 Sep 14 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:

Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think that being rich and being greedy, they wouldn't just sit on so much money? Wouldn't they want to use it to make more money for themselves? So why aren't they?


They are. They just aren't doing it in the USA.


Yes. Because they believe that they can make more money that way. So shouldn't we try to change that instead of trying to punish people for reacting rationally to the economic situation around them? Surely you can see that the whole "tax the rich because they aren't creating jobs" is not a viable solution?

Quote:
Quote:
It's because rich people invest their money in places where their investments are more likely to be lucrative. So isn't the obvious solution to make the USA a more lucrative place to invest?


Hard to make money when people are to afraid to spend it, because 1. They aren't sure if they will have a job tomorrow, and 2. because the fragile economy could sh*t the bed at any time in the foreseeable future.


Sure. But most of the reason the economy is so fragile is because of overspending by the government. Our debt is far worse than it would have been without that spending. That debt is driving fears of tax increases in the business world. And that fear is driving jobs from the US.

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You mean like the jobs the private sector has been moving out of the states since the 80's?


Irrelevant. We had those jobs just a few years ago. I'm looking at what has happened since 2007. Tossing some imagined longer term trend into the middle of this discussion doesn't help at all. Look at what changed in the last 4 years.


Quote:
Quote:

Those aren't connected to each other though. Not directly. Are you aware that in the 2010 to early 2011 time frame consumption rates were pretty healthy? As a result of pumping money into the demand side of the economy for a couple years, we were artificially keeping consumption at decent levels. But as I (and most conservatives) predicted, once the money runs out, the effect disappears. It's not sustainable.
So you do need a strong consumer confidence then? I am confused are you agreeing with me?


Huh? Did you just not bother to read what I wrote? We need "real jobs". Consumption is important, but only if the money being used to consume is the result of productive employment. Consumption is only half the equation. How many times do I have to keep repeating this before it sinks in?

How many more billions of dollars do we have to spend before it sinks in?


Quote:
Quote:
That's *not* normal. The idea that you should spend money to create jobs is not normal. Jobs should make money, not cost it.


Each year the American government spends billions (so to speak) so the private sector can create jobs....trouble is, they aren't and when they do most cases it is outside of you country. Everything has a price tag, you should know this being a hard line conservative. But that gets lost in the rhetoric usually doesn't it. If spending money to help companies afford to hire more people can't work, how do you propose that solid tax breaks do....in the end companies net the same returns so what you are really trying to say is to stop giving the private sector huge tax breaks since spending money into it isn't normal? I can agree with that.


It's like you don't even bother to read the words you quote and respond to. I just said that jobs should make money, not cost it. The very idea of "spending money to create jobs" is backwards. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. If a job is not profitable unless the government funds it in some way, then that job is a net negative economically. I just don't know how much more clearly I can say this.

You're also still missing the fact that the dollars that the government spends doing this has to come from somewhere eventually. The people in the business world know this. So not only are the jobs we're creating costing us more than they generate but they also increase our debt ultimately leading businesses to create fewer productive jobs in the economy. In typical liberal fashion, we're rewarding bad economic behavior and punishing good economic behavior and then standing around scratching our heads wondering why our economy is in the dumpster.

Stop doing that! It really is that simple. Stop trying to spend money to create jobs. Instead, do everything you can do reduce the spending the government is doing. Commit to not raising taxes. Make business believe that you wont raise taxes. Do this and those businesses will create jobs. And the jobs they create will generate more money than they cost, which will cause the economy to recover.


I guess I just don't get what you think the end result of spending to create jobs will be. How do you think that will create economic growth? The very fact that the government has to spend money for a job to exist means that the job is non-productive. We're spending money to hurt our economy, not help it.
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#78 Sep 14 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
That's all well and good Gbaji, if all that matters to someone is making a profit. If they will sacrifice anything and everything, as long as they get a maximum amount of profit.

However, not everyone in this country feels that profit is the most important thing.

First, our economy has become based on consumerism. While I feel that's not a great thing to base one's economy on, it is what we have done. In order to keep a such an economy rolling, you MUST have a strong middle class that consumes.

If the corporations care one iota about the economy of the USA, it IS their responsibility to do their part. They MUST create middle class jobs, an give decent raises to their workers. Someone MUST "feed the consumer beast".

If corporations refuse to do so, then it falls to the gov't to help out. I would much prefer this not to happen.

I realize that considering this would pop your poor, conservative mind. Thankfully, the majority of people in this country do not think like you.

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#79 Sep 14 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Technogeek wrote:
Thankfully, the majority of people in this country do not like you.
I read it like this and thought, well that's harsh.
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#80 Sep 14 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
That's all well and good Gbaji, if all that matters to someone is making a profit. If they will sacrifice anything and everything, as long as they get a maximum amount of profit.

However, not everyone in this country feels that profit is the most important thing.


In all areas of society? Sure. But that's not the case here. We're talking about how to bring about economic recovery. And as much as you rail against evil corporations and their profits, it's those profits which drive our economy. And if you stop and think about it for a moment, you know that this is true. It is the profits generated in the private market which fund the activities of the government. Government is a cost to our economy. Now, when profits in the private market are sufficiently high, we can afford that cost. But when those profits are not high, we can't. That's why we're running high deficits right now.

How on earth can you think that by increasing the costs while decreasing the profits we can somehow reverse this? It makes no **** sense at all.

Quote:
First, our economy has become based on consumerism. While I feel that's not a great thing to base one's economy on, it is what we have done. In order to keep a such an economy rolling, you MUST have a strong middle class that consumes.


I'm not sure how this addresses the question at hand. I'm looking at how we go about creating jobs. This has *nothing* to do with consumption.

Quote:
If the corporations care one iota about the economy of the USA, it IS their responsibility to do their part. They MUST create middle class jobs, an give decent raises to their workers. Someone MUST "feed the consumer beast".


And they will. But surely you can see that a government which artificially increases the cost to employ people, and threatens to increases taxes on the profits of those corporations will tend to drive those jobs away? You can't possibly be demanding that corporations operate their businesses at a loss out of some kind of patriotic duty? Can't you see that if they do that, our economy will fail?

Quote:
If corporations refuse to do so, then it falls to the gov't to help out. I would much prefer this not to happen.


Corporations (heck, all private businesses) will tend to refuse to make business decisions which cost them more than they generate in revenue. And they are right to do so. Not just out of some kind of evil greed, but also because if they do this, over time the economy will fail. How can you not see this!

You're basically arguing that if the private market refuses to do the wrong thing economically, that the government should step in and do it for them. That seems pretty darn stupid.

Quote:
I realize that considering this would pop your poor, conservative mind. Thankfully, the majority of people in this country do not think like you.


I think a growing majority are coming to understand what I'm talking about. People who think like you are (thankfully) becoming the minority. The sad part is that we'll have to wait until another election year to get sufficient numbers of Republicans in congress and in the white house to make the changes that need to be made. This means that millions of americans will have to suffer for another year and a half before we can make the right choice and do the right things and fix the mess the Dems have created of our economy.
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#81varusword75, Posted: Sep 14 2011 at 3:36 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) technoweenie,
#82 Sep 14 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly, despite multiple attempts to explain this, it appears like it's just not sinking in. I'll try one more time:

Jobs don't exist solely to put money into people's pockets so they can spend it buying stuff. That's only half of the value of a job. The other half is the productive result of the labor itself. The problem is that somewhere along the line the political left has adopted an ideological belief that the only important part of the job is the salary the worker earns. As a result, they embark on the creation of jobs without considering the other half of the equation. They don't see anything wrong with "spending money to create jobs".

But it is the wrong way to do it. Yes, in the short term you can lower unemployment and you can increase consumption. But that lasts only as long as you keep spending money. Once the money runs out, the jobs will disappear and those demand side effects will disappear with them. The only way to really fix the economy is to create sustainable jobs. Those are jobs which don't cost us money to create, but which actually generate more money than they cost. These jobs will continue to exist because they are profitable.

And instead of costing us tax dollars, they will generate tax dollars. Do this correctly, and there's no need to raise taxes or create massive jobs subsidies. But you have to get over your ideological hatred of corporate profits. By attacking those, you are attacking your own economic prosperity. Which seems kinda silly.
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#83 Sep 14 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Honestly, despite multiple attempts to explain this, it appears like it's just not sinking in. I'll try one more time:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.
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#84 Sep 14 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Honestly, despite multiple attempts to explain this, it appears like it's just not sinking in. I'll try one more time:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.


So you agree that Obama's jobs plan is insane? Great!
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#85 Sep 14 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
So you agree that Obama's jobs plan is insane? Great!
If that's the completely improbable jump in logic you want to go with.
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#86 Sep 14 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
It's a cushion. /sigh
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#87 Sep 14 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
So you agree that Obama's jobs plan is insane? Great!
If that's the completely improbable jump in logic you want to go with.


If we accept that definition of inanity (which I don't btw, but that's another subject), then Obama's jobs bill is the very definition of insane. We just spent a boatload of money thinking we could create jobs by selectively subsidizing and tax-crediting and funding infrastructure projects as a means of recovering the economy, and it failed horribly.

Why think doing the same thing again will produce different results? Oh! Because this time they're going to be smarter about how they spend the money! Smiley: lol
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#88 Sep 14 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
If we accept that definition of inanity (which I don't btw, but that's another subject), then Obama's jobs bill is the very definition of insane.
Whatever helps you believe I was commenting on anything political at all and not your admittance of "Hey, I keep doing this and it doesn't work, so I'll do it again" part, you go right ahead. Smiley: smile
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#89 Sep 14 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Why think doing the same thing again will produce different results? Oh! Because this time they're going to be smarter about how they spend the money! Smiley: lol


So you agree that Taxes on the richest Americans should be raised. As well as many loopholes that benefit companies hiring oversees work over American work being closed. Since doing the same thing over and over won't produce different results and all.

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#90 Sep 14 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:

Why think doing the same thing again will produce different results? Oh! Because this time they're going to be smarter about how they spend the money! Smiley: lol


So you agree that Taxes on the richest Americans should be raised. As well as many loopholes that benefit companies hiring oversees work over American work being closed. Since doing the same thing over and over won't produce different results and all.


Well, lets see. Four years ago we had the same Bush tax rates in effect and the same loopholes in our tax code. Yet, at that time, we had a 5% unemployment rate, and shrinking deficits and debt. So the worst we can say is that those things didn't prevent low unemployment, high GDP growth, and shrinking debt.

What "different results" did you think you were talking about?
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#91 Sep 14 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
Because bad things like a collapsing economy happen instantly!
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#92 Sep 14 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
Because bad things like a collapsing economy happen instantly!


Which in no way supports the assertion that it was taxes not being high enough on the rich that caused the collapsing economy in the first place, much less the assertion that failing to raise taxes on the rich is the equivalent of repeating a failed action and expecting different results. Your cart is about 8 steps ahead of your horse.
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#93 Sep 14 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Because bad things like a collapsing economy happen instantly!


Which in no way supports the assertion that it was taxes not being high enough on the rich that caused the collapsing economy in the first place, much less the assertion that failing to raise taxes on the rich is the equivalent of repeating a failed action and expecting different results. Your cart is about 8 steps ahead of your horse.


Did I make such an assertion? My assertion that giving corporations even more tax breaks than they are getting now, will not fix things. As long as there is no correlation to the general economy, and their wealth (which they have lobbied for many years to protect from economic troubles), then they have NO reason to make the economy better.

Tell you what, I will back corporate tax breaks, if ALL of the fortune 500 companies make binding guarantees that they will use that money to create jobs.


Hahahahahahaja, like that will happen.
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#94 Sep 14 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Because bad things like a collapsing economy happen instantly!


Which in no way supports the assertion that it was taxes not being high enough on the rich that caused the collapsing economy in the first place, much less the assertion that failing to raise taxes on the rich is the equivalent of repeating a failed action and expecting different results. Your cart is about 8 steps ahead of your horse.


Did I make such an assertion?


Well, in typical fashion you didn't assert anything. Are you claiming that your statement wasn't in support of the idea that cutting taxes and allowing tax loopholes (for the rich of course!) was responsible for our current economic predicament and that doing it again would be repeating the same action and expecting different results? Cause that sure seemed to be what you were saying.

More specifically, you appeared to be dismissing my counter statement by suggesting that it took some time for those things to cause the economy to collapse, so it doesn't matter that it was in better shape 4 years ago. Did you mean something else? Cause that seems like the most reasonable interpretation of your post.

Quote:
My assertion that giving corporations even more tax breaks than they are getting now, will not fix things.


Ok. But there's an issue over directionality going on here as well. I'm not proposing that we further lower tax rates or create more tax loopholes. I'm saying that we should not eliminate those that currently exist. I'm saying we should keep our taxes the same because tax rate changes wasn't what caused this problem.

It was that position by me which prompted rmc's statement about repeating the same action and getting different results. So the "same action" isn't really about changing tax rates to benefit "the rich" but not changing them to hurt them.

Quote:
As long as there is no correlation to the general economy, and their wealth (which they have lobbied for many years to protect from economic troubles), then they have NO reason to make the economy better.


Except that there is a correlation between their wealth and the general economy. Interestingly enough, if there wasn't, they'd have no reason *not* to hire more people in the domestic market. The reality though is that economic conditions affect their profits. Tax rates affect their profits. The cost of employment affects their profits. All of those things are taken into account when deciding where to invest their money.

What the Dems have done over the last few years is make it less profitable to create jobs in the US. Why is anyone surprised that the result of this is fewer jobs being created in the US?

Quote:
Tell you what, I will back corporate tax breaks, if ALL of the fortune 500 companies make binding guarantees that they will use that money to create jobs.


How much of the money though? See, there's the problem. You seem to want to hold them to some kind of one to one correlation between reduced taxes paid and jobs created. But that doesn't hold true in the public sector either, does it? The one thing you can count on is that the more money companies can make in the US, the more people they will hire. The less money they can make, the fewer people they will hire. It's all relative, but you seem to hold them to a different standard for some reason.


The other thing you can count on is that jobs created in the private sector will generally be productive jobs, while those created with public money (even subsidies of private sector jobs) will generally be less productive. If the jobs produced more profit for the company than they cost, they would create them right now. So somewhat by definition, if the government has to step in to fund those jobs directly, those jobs will not produce more than they cost.


The way to create jobs is to change the variables in the equation so that hiring people becomes more profitable. Do that, and the companies will create jobs. You don't need some magical guarantee. Their own desire for profit will assure that it happens.
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#95 Sep 14 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
If I follow you logic properly, gbaji., unions are an acid for producton in America.

Strangely, there are many states "*cough* South Dakota *cough* which are largely anti-or-passive union. Why not have the manufacturing jobs sent to these states instead of overseas? I'll tell ya why. Even though they could hire plenty of folk in states such as mine for barely over minimum wage (with folks glad for the jobs) it is simply a profit multiplier to send them out-country where the companies can get people for $7 a day instead of $7 an hour.


This isn't a union driven off-shore mess. There are plenty of states that would welcome the work, but profit demands borderline (or pure) slave labor to make the shareholders happy.


How do you not see this?


Is California blinding you from seeing the rest of the country?

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#96 Sep 14 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
If I follow you logic properly, gbaji., unions are an acid for producton in America.


Depends on how the union is structured and operates, but by and large, yes. You hadn't figured this out from the hundreds of posts I've made over the years about the harmful economic effect of unions?

Quote:
Strangely, there are many states "*cough* South Dakota *cough* which are largely anti-or-passive union. Why not have the manufacturing jobs sent to these states instead of overseas? I'll tell ya why.


Does you explanation include an example like what happened when Boeing attempted to open a manufacturing facility in a non-union state just as you are saying they should?

Quote:
Even though they could hire plenty of folk in states such as mine for barely over minimum wage (with folks glad for the jobs) it is simply a profit multiplier to send them out-country where the companies can get people for $7 a day instead of $7 an hour.


Nope. Ever think maybe you're missing something? I'll give you a hint: Wages alone aren't really that much of a factor when considering the total cost of opening up a plant in one location over another. Um... And unions are only part of the problem. Tax rates. Over the top environmental regulations. Mandates and regulations regarding employment in general. Construction costs. Power costs. Shipping costs. There are dozens of factors involved.

It's not a simple all or nothing equation. It's a matter of degrees. Each of those factors are weighed when a company makes a decision like that. Each thing counts, but only to the degree that factor affects that particular decision. That's why some companies will move operations across state lines based on certain factors and some will move them across national lines. That's why sometimes a union presence has a major effect, and sometimes it doesn't.


If your argument held water, then there should be absolutely zero jobs in the US at all which could be done elsewhere unless the government stepped in and forced companies to employ people here. Yet, that's clearly not the case. There are millions of people who are employed in the US doing jobs which could be done in another country if the only factor to consider was the cost of the labor itself. And a whole **** of a lot of those companies are not required to do so by the government.

Quote:
This isn't a union driven off-shore mess. There are plenty of states that would welcome the work, but profit demands borderline (or pure) slave labor to make the shareholders happy.


No. Profit demands that the company generate the most revenue while spending the least amount of money. The cost of labor is only one factor. It has an effect, everything else staying the same. But it's not the all-or-nothing effect you seem to be claiming it to be. It can't be.


Quote:
How do you not see this?


I do see that. I also see the bigger picture though. I happen to know first hand, for example, that while the labor cost in a location like Hydrabad is less than that in the US, the cost to ship materials and maintain them is greater. Also, power is less reliable, and communication isn't as good. I might put a call center there, but I'd be hesitant to put a data center that serves some kind of globally accessible applications there. I might put some engineers and some remote access equipment there so they can do design work remotely, but I'd put the bulk of my engineers and the equipment itself somewhere else.

I know this because I've seen the cost sheets for these sorts of decisions. And guess what? Labor cost is only one factor, and it's hardly the most significant one.

Quote:
Is California blinding you from seeing the rest of the country?


California is leading the country in terms of making the sort of mistakes the Dems are trying to push. We're a great example of just how bad a job market can get if you push a big government agenda. Do you know that there are nearly zero manufacturing jobs at all in California? And guess what? That's not about labor costs either. It's about over the top environmental regulations. It's about import and export taxes. Why do you suppose that the biggest industries in California are based on intellectual property? It's because there's no physical objects being built, or imported, or exported. That's why we make movies, and tv shows, and do bio-research, and develop computer chip and cell phones, and write computer programs.

That works out "ok", but we've driven pretty much everything else out of the state. Which means that our revenue is reduced as a result. What do you suppose happens when the liberals who run this state decide that it's time to more heavily tax intellectual property creation as well? If history is any indicator, those industries will move out of the state as well. Heck. we're already seeing large portions of the film/tv industry move away. Very few films are actually filmed in LA anymore (cept **** I suppose). The folks who produce them live there, and often keep their business addresses there, and they have the premiers there, but most of the actual work is done elsewhere.


The clear pattern is that when government attempts to take a bigger slice of some economic activity, that activity will move elsewhere. It's hardly controversial to point this out, right? It's kinda obvious. Any rational person would do their business where they'll make the most money. And this is *not* always about labor costs. That's a factor, but not the whole picture.
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#97 Sep 15 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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Well, lets see. Four years ago we had the same Bush tax rates in effect and the same loopholes in our tax code. Yet, at that time, we had a 5% unemployment rate, and shrinking deficits and debt. So the worst we can say is that those things didn't prevent low unemployment, high GDP growth, and shrinking debt.


and just over 10 years ago you had the slightly higher Clinton tax set, with a 4% unemployment rate, a surplus, and shrinking debt.

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#98 Sep 15 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:

Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think that being rich and being greedy, they wouldn't just sit on so much money? Wouldn't they want to use it to make more money for themselves? So why aren't they?


They are. They just aren't doing it in the USA.


Yes. Because they believe that they can make more money that way. So shouldn't we try to change that instead of trying to punish people for reacting rationally to the economic situation around them? Surely you can see that the whole "tax the rich because they aren't creating jobs" is not a viable solution?
Agreed. you should give them massive tax credits whenever they invest in the American economy but only when they invest in the American economy. For every new job they create, give them 75% as a tax credit of what that employee would have received had they remained on Employment Insurance or Welfare. (Btw, I pulled that number out of my ***, doesn't have to be 75%, just something substantial enough to incent them to put the money at home and not abroad).
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#99varusword75, Posted: Sep 15 2011 at 7:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ugly,
#100 Sep 15 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gumbo Galahad wrote:
ugly,
Quote:
you should give them massive tax credits whenever they invest in the American economy
You're a f*cking idiot.
Yeah, fuck America!
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#101varusword75, Posted: Sep 15 2011 at 7:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lagaga,
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