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#1 Sep 08 2011 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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Perry: Holyyyyyy shit, did he suck. Stumbling, on the defensive, looked completely over his head. His comments on job creation were overshadowed by Huntsman's record and he couldn't defend his book saying "That's just philosophy". Erm, shouldn't we care about your governing philosophy? His responses to the unfavorable points of the Texas system (lowest graduation rates, high low-wage employment) were pretty weak. He should be ****** at Boehner for getting tonight's speech moved and letting more people watch his performance. His social security Ponzi scheme remarks are probably a campaign killer anyway.

Romney: Ok, first off... he has a hard time that there's people who feel like they're not supporting our troops because they're not paying federal income tax? What? I had to listen to that twice. Anyway, he was easily the winner of the debate being able to win the verbal fencing matches between himself and Perry and come across as poised versus Perry's stammering and sinking into his shirt collar. He still has no convincing answer for his health care in Mass., and one of his few stumbling moments was his half-defense, half-attack over Perry's vaccination executive order.

Bachmann: Irrelevant. Perry has her conservative rhetoric and does it better. She looked like she has effectively given up and acted timid throughout the debate. The most defining things about her last night was that she raised 27 kids and promises $2/gal gas which everyone else saw as a joke anyway even if they wouldn't openly admit it. Also, her rhinestone flag pin was distracting as **** and she needs to fire her hairdresser. Go ahead and cry sexism that I'd mention this -- no one else had some atrocious straw hair blowout.

Santorum: Why is he even here? He looks and acts about as convincing as a youth minister.

Caine: It must be frustrating to be him. He's sure he has the answers and tries to drop hints that he's learned stuff (Chilean model! Nine-Nine-Nine plan!) but no one takes him seriously. He suffers from the Ron Paul issue where his solutions are out of the mainstream and peppers them with witticisms that don't really help.

Gingrich: Eh. I honestly have trouble even really remembering him, he made so little of an impact. He didn't really seem interested in promoting himself with his most memorable moment being a complaint that the media was trying to pit Republicans against one another. You know... at a debate. Where you.. erm... debate one another rather than just answering questions in a vacuum.

Paul: I felt a little bad that almost every one of his questions was "How about THIS government program? Would you kill that?" but I suppose when you make this the core of your campaign, that's what you get asked. He really didn't resonate with the crowd who apparently didn't agree with dismantling every program under the sun. Or legalizing drugs. Or forcing troops to return from Iraq by taking away their air conditioning.

Huntsman: He probably had the second best performance (after Romney) but it's too bad for him that it won't mean anything. Out of everyone there, he came across as the best qualified in both experience and philosophy but Romney's campaign apparatus will be a hurdle too high for him. Well, that and appealing for far-right voters with his more temperate views on some issues. His "I'll speak to the Chinese in Chinese!" remark struck me as a bit of a flub and reminiscent of Obama's speeches to the Middle East. Is that really the association he's going for?

Everyone sucked on the immigration question. Paul sounded like a kook ("They could use that border fence to keep us in!"), everyone else punted the question of what to do with the existing illegal immigrants. Hey, candidates, building a fence is easy; dealing with 11 million people is hard. How about trying to answer the hard part instead of hooting "Fence!" over and over? Huntsman had one of the (relatively) best answers, actually addressing our broken legal immigration system and how that's holding us back.

I don't have much to say about policy because, really, they didn't have much to say about policy except boilerplate rhetoric ("We needs jobs and I'll make jobs!"). Romney tried to hype his plan by throwing out a few tax levels and Caine wished someone cared about his ideas but the night was more about personality and poise than giving any real solutions.

Person (with a chance of getting the nomination) who'd do the best against Obama: Romney
Person who should be the GOP nominee: Huntsman

Edited, Sep 8th 2011 8:43am by Jophiel
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#2 Sep 08 2011 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Today is a full day of desk work, so I've saved it to listen to while I troll forums work, but I've not yet found a transcript/podcast. I caught a little joust this morning on the radio about job creation being attributed to predecessors. I'd have given the point to Romney on that one.

Perry is a tool.
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#3 Sep 08 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I thought part of the fact checking was pretty funny:
Quote:
PERRY: “Michael Dukakis created jobs three times faster than you did, Mitt.”

ROMNEY: “Well, as a matter of fact, George Bush and his predecessor created jobs at a faster rate than you did, governor.”

PERRY: “That’s not correct.”

ROMNEY: “Yes, that is correct.”

THE FACTS: Romney was correct.

Smiley: lol
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#4 Sep 08 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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You didn't mention how Huntsman did, you liberal mouthpiece.
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#5 Sep 08 2011 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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I ran out of time and had to get going to work. MSNBC's online feed kept freezing so I eventually let it completely buffer overnight and watched the rest this morning.

Going to edit the OP.

Edit: Edited!

Edited, Sep 8th 2011 8:32am by Jophiel
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#6 Sep 08 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Too bad Huntsman doesn't stand a chance, on account of being the sanest person up there.
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#7 Sep 08 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Today is a full day of desk work, so I've saved it to listen to while I troll forums work, but I've not yet found a transcript/podcast.

MSNBC has the whole thing, but it's with video so I don't know if that works for you at the office.
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#8 Sep 08 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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I'd vote for Huntsman if he were decided to be the candidate if they used the Huntsman theme from Freakazoid every commercial.
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#9 Sep 08 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bachman promised 2 dollar gas, a wall in Texas and no government intervention.

Wat.
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#10 Sep 08 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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That'll be $2 a liter, right? Cause then you're paying about as much as people here do.
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#11 Sep 08 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Wasn't Huntsman the one who said if we lower corporate tax to 0 it would bring jobs back to America? I only saw parts and when that was said I just had to turn the channel.
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#12 Sep 08 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't... think... so? I remember someone said it but I... think?... it was Paul?

Financial times, Sept 1, 2011 wrote:
In an effort to boost his sagging poll numbers, Republican hopeful Jon Huntsman on Wednesday offered a tax reform proposal that would eliminate a wide range of breaks for individuals and corporations in exchange for lower overall rates.
[...]
The plan would eliminate all loopholes, deductions, and tax expenditures, according to preliminary reports, while lowering individual tax brackets to 8, 14, and 23 percent. The corporate tax rate would drop 10 percentage points to 25 percent, while capital gains and dividends would no longer be taxed.


Edit: Santorum has advocated eliminating the corporate tax for manufacturers so maybe it was him.

Edited, Sep 8th 2011 10:49am by Jophiel
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#13 Sep 08 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe. I just remember someone saying (paraphrasing) "I'll lower the corporate tax to 0% and that allow corporation to make a profit with american labor and bring our jobs back".

Which is retarded. The jobs are already gone the only way to bring them back is to make it cheaper to use american labor.
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#14 Sep 08 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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All the GOP candidates that have actually released plans have been railroaded into oscurity. I think this is more than a little distressing.
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#15 Sep 08 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Jimpadan wrote:
Maybe. I just remember someone saying (paraphrasing) "I'll lower the corporate tax to 0% and that allow corporation to make a profit with american labor and bring our jobs back".

Which is retarded. The jobs are already gone the only way to bring them back is to make it cheaper to use american labor.
Or make it more expensive to use foreign labor.

I'm only about half-way through. So far I'm puzzled about Santorums first remarks. I think he was patting himself on the back for the AFDC reform to TANF. I thought that was legislation that was hashed out mostly between Clinton and Gingrich. But Gingrich seemed ok with the remarks. /shrug

Bachmann has not seemed terribly engaged with any of it, but she's looking creepier and creepier all the time.

Haha... Perry, "We stand by what we've done, with the resources we have"...this about education while trying to justify 1.4 billion in cuts to education in Texas
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#16 Sep 08 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Jimpadan wrote:
Maybe. I just remember someone saying (paraphrasing) "I'll lower the corporate tax to 0% and that allow corporation to make a profit with american labor and bring our jobs back".

Which is retarded. The jobs are already gone the only way to bring them back is to make it cheaper to use american labor.
Or make it more expensive to use foreign labor.
You mean increase tariffs, thereby eliminating most markets other than the US for US companies? Really?
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#17 Sep 08 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
But Gingrich seemed ok with the remarks.

I'm sure the concern that Santorum might steal the nomination from Gingrich wasn't exactly palpable Smiley: laugh

Quote:
she's looking creepier and creepier all the time.

Halfway through, her rhinestone flag pin fell sideways and stayed that way which annoyed me each time she was on camera.

I was amused how all of Texas's problems were Obama's fault according to Perry. "Well, we asked the federal government for [XYZ] but..." So it's Obama's fault that Texas ranked last in insurance and high school graduation yet somehow 49 other states could overcome these hurdles. But it's all Perry's doing when touting job numbers.
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#18 Sep 08 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Jimpadan wrote:
Maybe. I just remember someone saying (paraphrasing) "I'll lower the corporate tax to 0% and that allow corporation to make a profit with american labor and bring our jobs back".

Which is retarded. The jobs are already gone the only way to bring them back is to make it cheaper to use american labor.
Or make it more expensive to use foreign labor.
You mean increase tariffs, thereby eliminating most markets other than the US for US companies? Really?

No, I didn't mention tariffs. I mean requiring ISO certification or something of that sort.
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#19 Sep 08 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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You want every mid plus sized company to be ISO certified? Do you have any idea how monumental of a task that is to do?
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#20 Sep 08 2011 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
You want every mid plus sized company to be ISO certified? Do you have any idea how monumental of a task that is to do?

No, I didn't really say I wanted that. I merely said that making foreign labor more expensive is an option to making domestic labor cheaper. 'm not really prepared to debate the issue beyond that.
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#21 Sep 08 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I'm not so much trying to debate it, but trying to figure out how would you propose doing so? Because I can't see a way that makes any sense to force companies to use local labour. Enticements? yes. Force them though? Boggled here.
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#22 Sep 08 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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omg a bunch of radical pinko lefties don't like the GOP candidates. Stop the press! LOL.
#23 Sep 08 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Sorry, I'm not so much trying to debate it, but trying to figure out how would you propose doing so? Because I can't see a way that makes any sense to force companies to use local labour. Enticements? yes. Force them though? Boggled here.
I didn't suggest forcing companies to use local labors. What are you reading?

I merely suggested that rather than attempt to bring our labor costs down to those of undeveloped or developing countries, why not work at increasing the labor costs, or at least the cost of doing business elsewhere?

I don't have any good ideas right off the top of my head, but clearly, creating comparable work conditions is one way of doing it. Incentives, or I guess what are enticements up there, might work. Probably not though. Voluntary compliance is a pipe dream.
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#24 Sep 08 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
omg a bunch of radical pinko lefties don't like the GOP candidates. Stop the press! LOL.

I kinda like Ron Paul.

You know what scared me, was me thinking that Gingrich was perhaps the least off-kilter.

Huntsman should be president in a made-for-tv movie.

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#25 Sep 08 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I didn't suggest forcing companies to use local labors. What are you reading?
That would be my conservative skew on you saying "make foreign labour more expensive."
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#26 Sep 08 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You know what scared me, was me thinking that Gingrich was perhaps the least off-kilter.

Well, he only said about three things all night. He's an establishment guy, anyway.

I'm tickled that someone took offense to the OP and rated it down. Maybe an irate Huntsman fan who was upset at my not including him in the first draft.

Edited, Sep 8th 2011 12:56pm by Jophiel
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#27 Sep 08 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
All the GOP candidates that have actually released plans have been railroaded into oscurity. I think this is more than a little distressing.

The smart ones have correctly deduced that selling obscure, undeliverable halcyon ideals like "hope" and "change" is a better formula for success than selling concrete plans that can be nitpicked to death.
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#28 Sep 08 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
All the GOP candidates that have actually released plans have been railroaded into oscurity. I think this is more than a little distressing.

The smart ones have correctly deduced that selling obscure, undeliverable halcyon ideals like "hope" and "change" is a better formula for success than selling concrete plans that can be nitpicked to death.


Welcome to politics.
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#29 Sep 08 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
All the GOP candidates that have actually released plans have been railroaded into oscurity. I think this is more than a little distressing.

The smart ones have correctly deduced that selling obscure, undeliverable halcyon ideals like "hope" and "change" is a better formula for success than selling concrete plans that can be nitpicked to death.


Welcome to politics.

Yes, we can.
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#30 Sep 08 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe an irate Huntsman fan who was upset at my not including him in the first draft.
No doubt a chunky elf.
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#31 Sep 08 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Person (with a chance of getting the nomination) who'd do the best against Obama: Romney


Some of us figured this out four years ago. Smiley: mad
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#32 Sep 08 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's why I need to vote Perry in the primaries!

OMG Operation Chaos!!!
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#33 Sep 08 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Person (with a chance of getting the nomination) who'd do the best against Obama: Romney


Some of us figured this out four years ago. Smiley: mad


Wait, you LIKE Romney? Because he's one of the most liberal of these nutjobs... I thought you abhorred things like social healthcare.

And I'm not quite convinced this is true. Without Tea Party support, any GOP candidate is going to struggle to win an election in 2012.

He's certainly who I would hope wins, though, if Obama can't keep his office. He terrifies me slightly less than the rest. Though, to be fair, I know VERY little about Huntsman.
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#34 Sep 08 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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With only Tea Party support, the nominee may as well just stay home. There's a reason why the Obama campaign is crossing their fingers for Rick "Social Security is a monstrous lie" Perry.
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#35 Sep 08 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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I'd expect any GOP candidate (with a chance) to need both Tea Party and traditional support to win.
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#36 Sep 08 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'd expect any GOP candidate (with a chance) to need both Tea Party and traditional support to win.
The only way it truly becomes an issue is if the GOP candidate is so far out from the TP, that they field their own candidate, otherwise, one would think, selling the GOP candidate should be easy as it's the GOP candidate or that Commie *******.
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#37 Sep 08 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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You'd think that because that makes sense.
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#38 Sep 08 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Typically, I'm a fairly rational person, so yes, I'd think that. I know I'm probably wrong, but I've got to throw my fellow conservatives a bone.
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#39 Sep 08 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Person (with a chance of getting the nomination) who'd do the best against Obama: Romney


Some of us figured this out four years ago. Smiley: mad


Wait, you LIKE Romney?


I didn't think you were that new here. He was my preferred candidate in 2008. Funny how perception and reality don't always match up.

Quote:
Because he's one of the most liberal of these nutjobs... I thought you abhorred things like social healthcare.


This is you misunderstanding my reasons for my positions. Happens a lot though, so I'll forgive you! Smiley: smile

Quote:
And I'm not quite convinced this is true. Without Tea Party support, any GOP candidate is going to struggle to win an election in 2012.


Romney will get Tea Party support if he wins the primary. As several people have pointed out, Romney is 100 times better in their eyes than Obama. If you meant "without being the absolute favorite of the Tea Party", I think you're 100% incorrect.

Quote:
He's certainly who I would hope wins, though, if Obama can't keep his office. He terrifies me slightly less than the rest. Though, to be fair, I know VERY little about Huntsman.


This is why you're 100% incorrect. To win, all a GOP candidate has to do to win against Obama under the current conditions is *not* **** off the Tea Party and *not* scare away independents and moderates. Bachmann is a bad choice because even though she's a Tea Party favorite, she's very poorly viewed in the middle. Perry is rapidly developing the same problem. Romney is someone who's seen as a solid conservative (despite the whole "Romneycare" bit) on the right, but not seen as a radical by the middle.

He's also got great hair. Never underestimate the value of that in a president.
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#40 Sep 08 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'd expect any GOP candidate (with a chance) to need both Tea Party and traditional support to win.
The only way it truly becomes an issue is if the GOP candidate is so far out from the TP, that they field their own candidate, otherwise, one would think, selling the GOP candidate should be easy as it's the GOP candidate or that Commie *******.


BTW. I suspect that's exactly what Sarah Palin is doing right now. Not planning to run if the GOP doesn't field the right candidate, but keeping the Tea Party movement involved and active regardless of whom the GOP fields. If the Tea Party is firmly attached to one or two candidates and those candidates don't win the primary, the situation you mention could happen. But if you have someone who isn't in the ring acting as the Tea Party spokesperson, she can step in and get those members to support whomever wins the primary. This way you don't have a falling off of support (or as much of one) when a groups preferred candidate doesn't win the nomination.


It's entirely possible she's a complete moron and is planning on jumping into the ring at the very last moment, but I just suspect that behind the scenes power-broker is a much better role for her right now. On some level I think she's holding a grudge for what the Obama campaign (and their friends) did to her in 2008, and is willing to essentially campaign for anyone who'll take on Obama. And building this support structure without running herself is a perfect way of doing that. Dunno, could just be whimsical fantasy, but it's why I'd be doing what she's doing, if I were doing it (does that make sense?).
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#41 Sep 08 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sarah who?
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#42 Sep 08 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only thing Palin is doing is promoting her own brand. She was out of the race the moment Bachmann entered it as Palin doesn't have the personality to share the spotlight with someone else who has an identical message. But she'll keep pretending to have some chance of entering so people will keep giving her media time (funny how the "lamestream media" isn't so bad then... heh) and try to keep herself relevant for another six months or so.

Palin isn't popular outside of her core group and Bachman and Perry both proved that they can take her message further than she ever could. 2012 was her one chance because no one will care about her in 2016 but collecting an easy paycheck from FOX was more valuable to her than running. I don't say that insultingly; she had no chance of winning anyway so she might as well stay where she belongs.

Speaking of the Tea Party, Romney's measured "Well, if they're for tax reform then yeah, I'm for the Tea Party" didn't go past me unnoticed. He knows he'll need their votes and appeal to them at the basic "jobs & taxes" level while trying to stay away from the fringe element.
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#43 Sep 08 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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/shrug. I'd spend more time replying, but there's a minor power issue going on right now. Yay!
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#44 Sep 08 2011 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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You'd think that because that makes sense.


I lol'd.

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/shrug. I'd spend more time replying, but there's a minor power issue going on right now. Yay!


Maybe there is a god?
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#45 Sep 08 2011 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
/shrug. I'd spend more time replying, but there's a minor power issue going on right now. Yay!


Maybe there is a god?


What a great plan. Inconvenience millions to delay an incredibly persistent poster minutely.
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#46 Sep 08 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I didn't suggest forcing companies to use local labors. What are you reading?
That would be my conservative skew on you saying "make foreign labour more expensive."


Tell that to Dalton Mcguinty who just proposed a 10K Tax Credit to Corporations to Hire Skilled Immigrants. Right after the Ontario Government has spent about 580 million in paying for Second Career Training for the thousands of laid of workers. Its stupid, but a month before the election here, why commit political suicide. ******* idiot. I swear to god politicians are some of the stupidest people on this planet. 500K unemployed in the province, lets use their money to bring in foreign labor....Idiot.
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#47 Sep 09 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
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/shrug. I'd spend more time replying, but there's a minor power issue going on right now. Yay!


Maybe there is a god?


What a great plan. Inconvenience millions to delay an incredibly persistent poster minutely.

It took me a few decades, but I worked out that being sensible all the time makes one unfunny and disliked.
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#48 Sep 09 2011 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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omg a bunch of radical pinko lefties don't like the GOP candidates. Stop the press! LOL.

Actually, I have to agree (in nicer language) with Varus here. It makes sense that the most progressive politicians in the conservative party are going to be liked more by progressive citizens, and the most conservative politicians in the progressive party are going to be liked more by conservative citizens.

For instance, in Australia, the major conservative party, The Coalition, who I wouldn't vote for in a pink fit, had Peter Costello and Malcolm Turnbull as major players, Ministers (Secretaries) and (very briefly) Leaders. I thought both of them were intelligent, compassionate men, and quite liked them. They were socially progressive, but economically conservative. Sadly, but unsurprisingly, their rises to power were brief, as people in their own party, and Coalition voters, didn't like them.

On the principles that People Are Stupid, Scum Rises To The Top, and Your Electronic Voting Systems Have Been Compromised, I'm going to predict you get Bachmann for POTUS.
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#49 Sep 09 2011 at 5:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whether or not I like Romney or Perry or Bachman has nothing to do with what sort of a performance they turned in at the debate. Romney indisputably won but I wouldn't vote for the guy or cross the street to dump a bucket of water on him if he were on fire. Perry's performance was just abysmal when he had been hyped as a debating machine. He stuttered and stammered over his answers and Romney had him on the defensive the entire night. The few times he tried to attack Romney's answers, Romney was ready with a rebuttal ("Dukakis!" "Bush!").

I haven't heard anyone say they took away a different impression and I rather doubt Varus even watched the debate. If someone wants to defend Perry's performance rather than saying "Liberal", knock yourself out.

And saying someone is "most liberal" in a field with Bachman, Perry and Santorum is like saying "This is the least screechy and poo-flinging monkey in the monkey house" and expecting it to dress up in a suit and join you for dinner.

Edit: Autocorrect is always an adventure.

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 6:31am by Jophiel
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#50 Sep 09 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
I think Romney would be the most serious threat to Obama if he can get through the primaries. I don't know if I'd vote for him myself in the general election, but I don't think I'd open a vein if he got elected, either. The problem is, he's going to have a rough time winning anything in the bible belt or anywhere else where mormons are scary.
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#51 Sep 09 2011 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I wouldn't vote for the guy or cross the street to dump a bucket of water on him if he were on fire.
I bet you would. I'd even put my lips to his for a little mouth to mouth if it was a matter of life or death.

Perry seems convinced that he has convinced the american people that Obama is an atrocious, ineffective leader. So, all independents and republicans alike will throw their weight behind the Pubby-nominee Perrster just to be rid of the country-rotting black guy.
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