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#1 Sep 06 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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AP-NORC did a survey/poll on security vs. freedoms. Some results from this article:

—71 percent favor surveillance cameras in public places to watch for suspicious activity.
—58 percent favor random searches involving full-body scans or pat-downs of airplane passengers.
—55 percent favor government analysis of financial transactions processed by U.S. banks without a warrant.
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
—35 percent favor racial or ethnic profiling to decide who should get tougher screening at airports.

Governing is all about balancing security with freedom. Are the scales tipping too far in either direction?

I'm resigned to live with transparent security efforts such as metal detectors and bag searches. I'm not keen on much of the patriot act and the more sinister types of secret surveillance. I thought the warrant process worked pretty well.

I'm also worried that SO many people are voting and/or making opinion based on irrational fear (of terrorists).
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#2 Sep 06 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Governing is all about balancing security with freedom. Are the scales tipping too far in either direction?

Not when the country has you to keep us in line!
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#3 Sep 06 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Demea wrote:
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Governing is all about balancing security with freedom. Are the scales tipping too far in either direction?

Not when the country has you to keep us in line!
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#4 Sep 06 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Those people favor that stuff until it happens to them. "Why do I need to show ID? I'm white!"
#5 Sep 06 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
I'm okay with that, though I may be biased to the idea.
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#6 Sep 06 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
I'm okay with that, though I may be biased to the idea.
We have that here, if you can't show it you just get fined.
Although it has it's downsides, when a bunch of protesters refused to show an ID to the police the police abused the rules and arrested all of them on suspicion of being illegal immigrants despite there being no evidence for that aside from refusing to show an ID.

And while it was a very dirty tactic by the police, it is a legal action (barely legal and very shady, but legal) which is rather disturbing.

Edited, Sep 6th 2011 8:02pm by Aethien
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#7 Sep 06 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
I'm okay with that, though I may be biased to the idea.


Not me. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth to think that I have to keep ID on me at all times or be fined.

And what would be on the ID, exactly?
#8 Sep 06 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
I'm okay with that, though I may be biased to the idea.


Not me. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth to think that I have to keep ID on me at all times or be fined.

And what would be on the ID, exactly?
Typically, the same info that's on a driver's license, less your driver's license ID number. At least, that's how it is for us.

I have yet to understand, what to me is, your irrational fear of this, but to each their own.
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#9 Sep 06 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Less than a driver's license, I'd guess. Name, birthday, basic physical stats at least.
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#10 Sep 06 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Typically, the same info that's on a driver's license, less your driver's license ID number. At least, that's how it is for us.

I have yet to understand, what to me is, your irrational fear of this, but to each their own.


I'd like the freedom to go out without having to carry an ID if I want to without being fined, is all. I've also only ever heard this in connection with illegal immigrants, and I have an issue on that respect, personally.

It's not a fear, exactly. More like a petulant, "I don't wanna" type thing.
#11 Sep 06 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
I'd like the freedom to go out without having to carry an ID if I want to without being fined, is all.
Driving without your license can land you 90s days and $150. Smiley: dubious
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#12 Sep 06 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I'd like the freedom to go out without having to carry an ID if I want to without being fined, is all.
Driving without your license can land you 90s days and $150. Smiley: dubious


I never said I wanted to drive somewhere without ID. Smiley: lol I can't exactly walk to the store from my house right now, but when I move to Hawaii I'll be able to, and if I want to go for a stroll, I might not want to get my wallet out of my purse and find my license in order to do that.

ETA: Oh, and someone ELSE can drive me somewhere. Smiley: tongue

Edited, Sep 6th 2011 2:04pm by Belkira
#13 Sep 06 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I often am without id. Mostly cuz I just forget it, but often I just don't need it. You have 24hours to produce your drivers license if you should get pulled over and don't have it on you.

Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.
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#14 Sep 06 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Typically, the same info that's on a driver's license, less your driver's license ID number. At least, that's how it is for us.


What piece of ID are you referring to?
#15 Sep 06 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.


And the disabled who don't drive. Or people who just never learned to drive.

#16 Sep 06 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.


And the disabled who don't drive. Or people who just never learned to drive.

Government Requires Citizens to Provide Proof of Citizenship; Poor and Gimpy Hit Hardest. Smiley: rolleyes
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#17 Sep 06 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.


And the disabled who don't drive. Or people who just never learned to drive.
How do they ID you for alcohol/cigarettes in the US?

I have my Driver's License, but my Mom has a basic ID with her birth date, address, etc.

Edited, Sep 6th 2011 1:21pm by Kirby
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#18 Sep 06 2011 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
when I move to Hawaii I'll be able to, and if I want to go for a stroll, I might not want to get my wallet out of my purse and find my license in order to do that.
That's the irrational fear Ugly was talking about. You're not going to get regularly, or even randomly, checked for ID. The countries that already do things like this require specific circumstances before they check cards.

Even then, I find it mind boggling anyone would leave their homes without something that notes at least their blood type and allergies. God forbid there's an accident of some sort.
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#19 Sep 06 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.


And the disabled who don't drive. Or people who just never learned to drive.
How do they ID you for alcohol/cigarettes in the US?

I have my Driver's License, but my Mom has a basic ID with her birth date, address, etc.


Driver's license usually. If you don't get one, then you either need to get someone to buy it for you, get an ID card, or you go without.
#20 Sep 06 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
That's the irrational fear Ugly was talking about. You're not going to get regularly, or even randomly, checked for ID. The countries that already do things like this require specific circumstances before they check cards.

Even then, I find it mind boggling anyone would leave their homes without something that notes at least their blood type and allergies. God forbid there's an accident of some sort.


Where's the fear...? If I know it's possible that I'll be fined if asked for an ID and I don't have one (for example, if I witness an accident or something, not just walking around and some cop starts badgering me for an ID) then I'll feel obligated to always go through the trouble of finding my license and digging it out of my wallet before I go for a walk. That's annoying.

And I own nothing that notes my blood type or allergies (but I don't have any allergies besides seasonal, so there's that). I figure if I'm in the hospital, it's not that difficult for them to find out what my blood type is. I honestly have no idea what my blood type is, despite having given blood before. Tons of people walk around without that information somewhere on their body, and I've never heard that someone has died because of it. Plus, I'd rather the medics go ahead and start that life saving that they're paid to do instead of rooting around in my wallet for a list of allergies and my blood type.
#21 Sep 06 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
I'd rather the medics go ahead and start that life saving that they're paid to do instead of rooting around in my wallet for a list of allergies and my blood type.
Personally, I'd like them to use the time it takes to do the tests for blood type on actually saving my life. No ID, you're unconscious, they can't exactly get your medical records either or contact anyone. I just find it mind boggling people don't take these simple measures.
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#22 Sep 06 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Honestly I can't come up with a really good example of why requiring everyone has an ID is a bad thing. It just seems like it is - Big Brotherish. And, as usual, it will be the indigent, homeless types that would be most inconvenienced by having to get and keep an id.


And the disabled who don't drive. Or people who just never learned to drive.
How do they ID you for alcohol/cigarettes in the US?

I have my Driver's License, but my Mom has a basic ID with her birth date, address, etc.


Driver's license usually. If you don't get one, then you either need to get someone to buy it for you, get an ID card, or you go without.

If you get old enough you don't get carded anymore. Smiley: glare

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#23 Sep 06 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I'd rather the medics go ahead and start that life saving that they're paid to do instead of rooting around in my wallet for a list of allergies and my blood type.
Personally, I'd like them to use the time it takes to do the tests for blood type on actually saving my life. No ID, you're unconscious, they can't exactly get your medical records either or contact anyone. I just find it mind boggling people don't take these simple measures.


Tomayto Tomahto, I suppose. I don't have any real issues or allergies, so I don't see an issue, personally. If I had, say, a latex allergy or something, I'd probably have one of those medical bracelets.
#24 Sep 06 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the issue isn't having to carry ID at all times so much as the door this opens. Governments are suppose to represent people, not control them. As far as catching 'illegal' immigrants? Humans are humans. What right does anyone one person have over another to live anywhere?
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#25 Sep 06 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
—47 percent favor requiring all people in the U.S. to carry a national ID card and provide it to authorities upon demand.
I'm okay with that, though I may be biased to the idea.
We have that here, if you can't show it you just get fined.


How do you fine someone if they don't produce ID?
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#26 Sep 06 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:


How do you fine someone if they don't produce ID?


Yes officer. My name is Lolard Gaxington.
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#27 Sep 06 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Peimei wrote:
Governments are suppose to represent people, not control them.

Ah, to be young and naive again.

You get on back to class now; recess is over.
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#28 Sep 06 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
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Demea wrote:
Peimei wrote:
Governments are suppose to represent people, not control them.

Ah, to be young and naive again.

You get on back to class now; recess is over.


So we're supposed to be controlled? Whats the point of living if you don't have the freedom to do it?
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#29 Sep 06 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Government exists to force coercion of the population over which they govern to do (or not do) things which they otherwise wouldn't (or would).

This isn't exactly ground-breaking news.
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#30 Sep 06 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Peimei wrote:
So we're supposed to be controlled?
What do you think laws are?
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#31 Sep 06 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Peimei wrote:
Demea wrote:
Peimei wrote:
Governments are suppose to represent people, not control them.

Ah, to be young and naive again.

You get on back to class now; recess is over.


So we're supposed to be controlled? Whats the point of living if you don't have the freedom to do it?


For the record, I don't think being fined for not carrying ID is not having the freedom to live.

Just wanted to put that out there, since I'm already being accused of having an irrational fear. Smiley: tongue
#32 Sep 06 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Peimei wrote:
So we're supposed to be controlled?
What do you think laws are?

How to not be a **** for dummies?

Social order and controlling the population are two different things.
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#33 Sep 06 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
How do they ID you for alcohol/cigarettes in the US?

I have my Driver's License, but my Mom has a basic ID with her birth date, address, etc.

Edited, Sep 6th 2011 1:21pm by Kirby


If you don't have ID, you ***** and moan and throw a tantrum and try to get the employee fired for refusing to sell it to you. You finally leave when you realize the cops you are threatening to call on the employee will side with them since the law says no ID, no sale.
#34 Sep 06 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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Peimei wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Peimei wrote:
So we're supposed to be controlled?
What do you think laws are?

How to not be a **** for dummies?

Social order and controlling the population are two different things.


Laws are inherently about control. Whether or not they reflect prevailing social norms or mores doesn't change the fact that they're a controlling force. Laws don't even have to be about ethics. At their most basic, that's all a law is: something designed to control actions.
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#35 Sep 06 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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It's the same thing as a state-issued Non-Driver ID. I see no problem with this.

****, even if I'm not driving (like if I'm out and about in New York) I don't have my wallet on me, but I'll carry my license, a small amount of cash and any other cards I'd need (my credit card and a Metro card) in my pocket.
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#36 Sep 06 2011 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought that once you were around 16, by law you have to have ID on you at all times?
#37 Sep 06 2011 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
I thought that once you were around 16, by law you have to have ID on you at all times?


Not that I'm aware of.
#38 Sep 07 2011 at 12:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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My degree is actually in security and intel, so I have some definite oppinions on the matter, and in many cases I am probably more likely to favor surveilance and increased security than some might be comfortable with. That being said, I do feel that there are currently areas that we go way over the top right now.

Surveilance cameras are basically dirt cheap, easy to install, and usable by almost anyone who can attach a device to a TV. When they are used for such purposes as traffic monitoring on roadways to respond more quickly to accidents, or for surveilance in high security areas like banks or pharmacies, I'm all for them. They start crossing the line when you end up with things like "red light" cameras, or automated speed trap cameras. Those do nothing to increase safety, and are strictly a revenue source for unscrupulous government agencies. I also understand, but dislike the anti shoplifting cameras. The shoplifters who are good enough to get away with it are apperently not deterred by them, and at the same time you end up essentially "punishing" the lawful shoppers who intended on paying for their items by spying on them. There was a particular pizza bar restaraount that opened in Vancover a few years back. I always called it "fortress Pizza" because they literally had a security camera watching every single table in addition to the register, etc. I don't need some jerk watching me eat my food. Is pizza theft really that big of a problem? I ate their once, I never went back, and I warned everyone I knew away from it too. They went out of buisiness about 7 months later.

Random searches cost a huge amount of money. And according to Homeland security tests of airport security, even to this day Rarely find the planted items. We spend (and by We, I mean US taxpayers) Billions every year funding these obnoxious, inefficient searches, ran by the lowest bidder. The new milimeter wave x-ray 3d scanner devices also emit a form of radiation that is known to be somewhat damaging on the cellular level, and the effects of the devices has not been studied long term. There is a very real risk that these things will cause genetic defects or cancer. Plus the guy who approved them for use now works for the company. Pat down searches are also really useless. A truly determined suicide bomber who is willing to pack himself with c4 or some sort of ingestable explosive isn't going to show up by someone copping a feel. If you have probable cause, sure, knock yourself out. break out the arm length rubber gloves, etc. But until then, stay the heck away from my equipment, or at least hire someone more appropriate for the task. Like hot chicks.

Financial transactions, I'm really ok with. If its transmitted via the internet today, unless its very heavily encrypted, they can already see it anyways. Everything else should bepretty much public record for tax purposes, for corporate transparancy, etc.

National ID cards I am in favor of, for one reason. If you want government services, including use of tax funded facilities and transportation infrastructure, you should be required to present some form of documentation proving you are elegable to use those assets. If you want to stay in the back woods of tennessee and never leave the house or use the roads, then sure you don't need an ID card. If we pull you over without one, or without record of one existing, then we deport you to canukistan or something. This isn't the old german "papers please, citizen". This is "hey, i want a tax rebate", ok, show ID, or "hey, I just got arrested and i'm going to claim my name is bob when it's really george", ok, show some ID, oops, you just lied to a cop, etc. We already have these in large part via drivers licenses, or non driver identification cards issued at the state level. The reason I think a federal card of some sort would be a good idea in theory, yet horribly doomed to failure would be that some states, washington amongst them, have had issue with rampant illegal driver license creation, and starting a new federal ID database from scratch that doesn't use drivers licenses as a base would be horribly doomed to never actually working, and would only cost more money than it would prevent in fraud.

Racial or ethnic profiling is rarely effective, because the races and or ethnicites that wish to blow you up know you are doing it usually. For example, there are a specific set of extremely radical chechen muslims who look exactly like any other pale, white fair haired european you could cite as an example. They speak very heavily accented russian, look like russians, and wish to terrorize us. Looking for your typical "islamic" looking middle easterner would be next to useless. On the other hand, the twin tower hijackers were all very islamic looking. They didn't care, because they knew we were not watching the domestic flights. Terrorists do their homework too. They observe and compile information and look for holes in our defenses. Right now, we try to present the illusion of being strong everywhere, but it's all show and very little substance. It serves some real purpose in that it destracts from the real defenses to a certain degree, suh as the sky marshal programs, the plainclothes airport security details, the anti hijacking airplane modifications, the unobtrusive chemical and radiological detection equipment scattered throughout airports, etc. Security searches can be useful though, especially if you have a specific threat, or the occasional random search.

The mentality we have to get over is the one where we think we can stop that lone crazy gunman from taking out a target. We can't be strong everywhere, and at some point we have to figure out where the acceptable level of risk is. I garuntee if we were to cut billions from the airport security screening details tomorrow, we would be just at as much at risk now as we would be in a month, and after the initial panic airline flight dropoff, travel would go right back to where it was, even with the percieved increased risk. ****, take that same amount of money we are spending on screeners, and hire ex military and ex police officers to ride armed, in uniform on every possible flight that might go near a populated area or potential target in addition to the plainclothes sky marshals. I bet you could keep it under 20,000 people employeed, compared to the 40,000 airline screeners . Offer all law enforcement free air travel assiming the go armed and trained to respond to an airplane incident. Give the flight attendents swords or something. I dunno. Being able to respond to a threat quickly would make more sense than trying to prevent all possible threats, and would in the long run cost a huge amount less.

The patriot act also needs to expire. They had enough time. anything they don't know at this point they aren't likely to learn through it. If you can't convince a judge over a 20 minute phone call to fax you a provisional search or wire tapping warrent, you don't have a strong enough case to give you the right to inconveniance those people with a search. There is NEVER a scenario where that 20 minute pause to get authorization from judicial authority is going to negetivly impact your investigation. If you think someone is about to be in imminant danger, you already don't have to wait to go in even without the patriot act, so really it's just pure lazyness and unneccessary intrusiveness. And besides, the NSA is doing it already anyways.

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