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#27 Aug 30 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If women's rights groups really wanted to do something about any form of rape, they'd be much much better off educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized.


I believe the point is that there shouldn't be a situation where a woman can be "easily victimized."


You could say that about any crime. And yet, crime just keeps on happening, doesn't it? So instead of taking some reasonable actions in response to the very real dangers in the world, you'd prefer to take a course of action which assumes that some magical force will make the world safe for us all? I'm not getting that at all.

How exactly do you propose to eliminate all possible situations where a woman could be easily victimized?

Mandatory self defence classes paired with handbag sized guns, for her convenience, obviously.
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#28 Aug 30 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If women's rights groups really wanted to do something about any form of rape, they'd be much much better off educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized.


I believe the point is that there shouldn't be a situation where a woman can be "easily victimized."

Nice avatar. I want to not leave marks on her.


Jewel Staite is yummy. Smiley: nod

Oh hell yeah! Too bad her character in Firefly is so goddam annoying.
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#29 Aug 30 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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#30 Aug 30 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Wish someone installed a personality in Summer Glau.

I know, right? If I wanted to bang a lobotomy victim I'd go with Babydoll.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#31 Aug 30 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
If women's rights groups really wanted to do something about any form of rape, they'd be much much better off educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized.
Life doesn't really have a Konami code

I mean, are you so daft that you think that this kind of "advice" isn't given all the time?

you don't need to answer


Edited, Aug 30th 2011 7:24pm by Sweetums
#32 Aug 30 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Wish someone installed a personality in Summer Glau.
I know, right? If I wanted to bang a lobotomy victim I'd go with Babydoll.
I've seen her in three things. Firefly, Terminator BlahBlahBlah Chronicles, and an episode of Big Bang Theory and every scene could have been done just as well with a cardboard cutout.
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#33 Aug 30 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Debalic wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Wish someone installed a personality in Summer Glau.
I know, right? If I wanted to bang a lobotomy victim I'd go with Babydoll.
I've seen her in three things. Firefly, Terminator BlahBlahBlah Chronicles, and an episode of Big Bang Theory and every scene could have been done just as well with a cardboard cutout.

She's nice to look at, at least.
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#34 Aug 30 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
You could say that about any crime. And yet, crime just keeps on happening, doesn't it?



And yet... I don't see you saying that those people need to have a lecture about how to keep themselves out of situations where they can be easily victimized.
#35 Aug 30 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You could say that about any crime. And yet, crime just keeps on happening, doesn't it?



And yet... I don't see you saying that those people need to have a lecture about how to keep themselves out of situations where they can be easily victimized.

How dare those people open a convenience store in a busy city. They're just ASKING to be robbed.
#36 Aug 30 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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If you drive in rush hour traffic, you're just asking to get into a wreck
#37 Aug 30 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
Gbaji would make a great politician he talks in nice circles.
#38 Aug 31 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You could say that about any crime. And yet, crime just keeps on happening, doesn't it?



And yet... I don't see you saying that those people need to have a lecture about how to keep themselves out of situations where they can be easily victimized.

How dare those people open a convenience store in a busy city. They're just ASKING to be robbed.
As long as marks aren't left, I don't see how it's a crime.
#39 Aug 31 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:


How exactly do you propose to eliminate all possible situations where a woman could be easily victimized?
Oh man really? Let me count the ways...





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#40 Aug 31 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If women's rights groups really wanted to do something about any form of rape, they'd be much much better off educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized.


I believe the point is that there shouldn't be a situation where a woman can be "easily victimized."


Seems like educating both sides would be the prudent thing to do. I'm not understanding why this would be an either/or thing really.

I'm not understanding how "no" is not accepted as "no"... whether a man or a woman says it.

And no, an unconscious or incapacitated or frightened person can't give consent.


You'll get no argument from me.

Sweetums wrote:
If you drive in rush hour traffic, you're just asking to get into a wreck


Driver's Ed classes are prudent no?

Perhaps I just saw it more akin to those little signs at the park that say "high car-prowl area, don't leave valuables in car." The little signs are common sense, shouldn't be necessary, doesn't address the root cause, and places an undue burden on people who aren't the problem. Still it's nice to have a reminder.

Well I'm glad they're there at least... Smiley: rolleyes

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#41 Aug 31 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
someproteinguy wrote:
Perhaps I just saw it more akin to those little signs at the park that say "high car-prowl area, don't leave valuables in car." The little signs are common sense, shouldn't be necessary, doesn't address the root cause, and places an undue burden on people who aren't the problem. Still it's nice to have a reminder.


I don't think anyone would argue that. But surely you can see how that and this:

gbaji wrote:
If women's rights groups really wanted to do something about any form of rape, they'd be much much better off educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized. I just think that focusing on legal action after the fact isn't really helping anyone


are a tad different. Unless you are talking about tags on revealing clothing warning women that "This outfit may put you in the Rape Zone" and placing signs at the mouth of dark alleys reading "STOP! You could be raped if you walk down here!"

The problem is that saying we need to start "educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized" sounds an awful lot like "she was asking for it." And I don't think many people who have their car burglarized feel guilty and ashamed and hesitant to go to the police about it, so suggesting that a woman might have brought being raped on herself seems... well, more than a little counterproductive.

Also, I don't see a problem with focusing on getting RAPISTS off the street...

ETA: ALSO also, are men so unable to control themselves that there are situations that a woman can put herself in where men will go crazy and must rape her...? That seems insane to me.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:55pm by Belkira

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 1:01pm by Belkira
#42 Aug 31 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:

ETA: ALSO also, are men so unable to control themselves that there are situations that a woman can put herself in where men will go crazy and must rape her...? That seems insane to me.

It's like you don't read ANYthing some of the guys on here post...
#43 Aug 31 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
Nadenu wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:

ETA: ALSO also, are men so unable to control themselves that there are situations that a woman can put herself in where men will go crazy and must rape her...? That seems insane to me.

It's like you don't read ANYthing some of the guys on here post...


Smiley: frown
#44 Aug 31 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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If you leave the kitchen, you're just asking for it. Smiley: nod
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#45 Aug 31 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:

The problem is that saying we need to start "educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized" sounds an awful lot like "she was asking for it." And I don't think many people who have their car burglarized feel guilty and ashamed and hesitant to go to the police about it, so suggesting that a woman might have brought being raped on herself seems... well, more than a little counterproductive.


I'm sure there's a way to educate someone on the dangers of life without suggesting they brought those dangers on themselves. Suggesting it's somehow the victims fault is counter-productive at best. The blame should never be shifted off a perpetrator of a crime, but that doesn't mean you deny people information that could keep them from becoming a victim.

Belkira the Tulip wrote:

Also, I don't see a problem with focusing on getting RAPISTS off the street...


Neither do I.

Belkira the Tulip wrote:

ETA: ALSO also, are men so unable to control themselves that there are situations that a woman can put herself in where men will go crazy and must rape her...? That seems insane to me.


I'm not saying men aren't in need of education either, for the record. Smiley: wink
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#46 Aug 31 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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It's not rape if they don't report it.
#47 Aug 31 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
ETA: ALSO also, are men so unable to control themselves that there are situations that a woman can put herself in where men will go crazy and must rape her...? That seems insane to me.


That's the Islamic opinion, but gbaji isn't a Muslim... Oh!
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#48 Aug 31 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:

The problem is that saying we need to start "educating women on how to avoid putting themselves into situations where they may be easily victimized" sounds an awful lot like "she was asking for it." And I don't think many people who have their car burglarized feel guilty and ashamed and hesitant to go to the police about it, so suggesting that a woman might have brought being raped on herself seems... well, more than a little counterproductive.


I'm sure there's a way to educate someone on the dangers of life without suggesting they brought those dangers on themselves. Suggesting it's somehow the victims fault is counter-productive at best. The blame should never be shifted off a perpetrator of a crime, but that doesn't mean you deny people information that could keep them from becoming a victim.


This. I'm not talking about what you wear or where you go. I'm talking about making smart choices when in social settings. Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to. Even ignoring the question of what was actually said or done when it was just the two of them, we can correctly say that there were numerous things she could have done to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


I also happen to believe that pushing the "press charges after the fact" side of the issue sends mixed messages. You're essentially teaching young women that they *should* expect to be perfectly safe even if they are passed out drunk, half dressed, in the bedroom of a guy she just met a couple hours ago and has been dirty dancing with. Sure. In a perfect world, we should expect every guy to be a perfect gentleman in any and all situations. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

We should be teaching young women to assume that they are *not* safe in that situation, and that they should take every precaution to not end out there. We should be teaching young women to make their own sexual choices on their own terms, and to not ever adopt a "wait and see how I feel later" approach. The guys who victimize women look for that. They know that they can take advantage of that and get that woman to take one step after another until she ends out somewhere she never wanted to be in the first place. And no amount of teaching women to press charges after the fact prevents this, and in the overwhelming number of cases, it doesn't help after the fact either.


I'll also disagree with the idea that people aren't embarrassed about other forms of crime. Date rape (aside from the obvious difference) is very similar to people who are scammed. Most people are very embarrassed when they get taken by a scam artist and often don't come forward in those cases either. It's the same sort of methodology as well. The scam artist looks for an easy mark. This is someone who seems willing to take that first step, then a second, then a third, etc, without stopping to think where it's all leading. People get scammed because they don't set a firm stopping point ahead of time. They don't say "At no point am I going to hand this person any cash". And for that reason, when the scammer asks them to hand them cash, they do it. Similarly, date rape victims didn't put a firm stopping point in their mind. They didn't start the evening saying "At no point am I going to kiss a guy", or "At no point am I going to take anyone home, or let them take me to their place", or even "I will only have 3 drinks this evening".


In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?
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#49 Aug 31 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever. While it is prudent for people to protect themselves from certain crimes, they should not be just cast aside as 'she had it coming' for not doing so.
#50 Aug 31 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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#51 Aug 31 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
I heard it's not rape if you don't have to use lube.
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