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#102 Sep 02 2011 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Is Gbaji seriously suggesting that Eske's destination isn't connected to the world by asphalt and that there might not be other factors which still make the train a more attractive option?


*cough* The "other factors" are the point I'm making. It's just absolutely bizarre to me to be so dependent on public transportation to get somewhere.


Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Is Gbaji seriously suggesting that Eske's destination isn't connected to the world by asphalt and that there might not be other factors which still make the train a more attractive option?


*cough* The "other factors" are the point I'm making. It's just absolutely bizarre to me to be so dependent on public transportation to get somewhere.

When was the last time *you* tried to park in Manhattan?
At least Manhattan is easy to navigate. Boston can be a warren of one way streets. If you aren't familiar with the city, it can be hard as **** to even get to where you are going, and then you are going to pay out the *** to park.

I never drive in Boston if I can help it. I can park at the horse track in Revere for free, then use the T to get anywhere I need in the city. Public transportation is almost a godsend, really.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#103 Sep 02 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Boston can be a warren of one way streets.

The maze of one-way streets is a conspiracy to make you use public transportation. City planners in the 1700s had it out for you.
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#104 Sep 02 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Despite the fact that Portland ME is about a 15th the size of Minneapolis, when I moved from the latter to the former I was pretty intimidated.

Mpls is a grid, the east-west streets consecutively numbered and at right angles to the north-south alphabetically named avenues. Portland is a spiderweb with no naming strategies at all.

The old coastal town roadways are ruled by topography. The naming strategies are localized. We have one fairly major road that is posted as the Gray Road while in Portland. But when you take it to Gray the name is posted as The Portland Road. The 911 compliance stuff helped with some naming, but the roads are still a mess.

The saving grace of Atlantic coastal cities is when you become terribly lost you just need to head east and eventually you'll reach the ocean.
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#105 Sep 02 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
The naming strategies are localized.
Always found that silly.
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#106 Sep 02 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
The saving grace of Atlantic coastal cities is when you become terribly lost you just need to head east and eventually you'll reach the ocean.

I say close to the same thing when driving in Chicago, "If we get lost, we can always just head east until we hit water."
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#107 Sep 02 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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That's the problem with Manhattan: it's an island, so anywhere you go you hit water. "Is this the East or Hudson River?"
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#108 Sep 02 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Easy to tell which is which. Just count the bodies.
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#109 Sep 02 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
You're confusing city planning with natural disasters.


No, I'm not. I'm saying that city planning can amplify or minimize the effect that a natural disaster has on people's mobility. And planning that heavily relies on mass transit amplifies the impact of any natural disaster which affects that mass transit system.

Quote:
But I guess "cities that don't do this" don't ever have any kind of inclement weather.


Of course they do. But if the mass transit system in my town is down, it has very little impact on anyone. It certainly would not ever make anyone have to start their commute 2 hours earlier. Roads tend to get cleared faster than rails do. Doubly so underground rail systems after a storm.

Quote:
Why are you using a blatantly and completely unusual situation in your argument?


Because the post I was responding to was detailing the effect that this "completely unusual situation" had on the mass transit system, and the changes this forced her to make in order to be able to get to work. WTF?

Quote:
At least go and pull up a slightly normal example of mass transit.


It's crappy under normal conditions too. But even more crappy when a storm comes along.



It's just that it's completely alien to people living on the west coast to even think about that level of dependence (or even use) of mass transit. We use them in the rare occasions that it's convenient. And honestly many of us do feel that some planning groups deliberately manipulate things to make it "more convenient" than driving. You ride the bus if you don't own a car. You take the trolley only if the place you're going doesn't have sufficient parking (which leads to the whole "they didn't make enough parking deliberately to make us take the **** trolley" bit).

That's it. I would *never* commute to work by train or bus. I can get to just about any location in San Diego county in 30 minutes or less by car (and it's not a small county). By bus/trolley, it might take a couple hours to get anywhere, even places that I could drive to in under 10 minutes. I just can't comprehend that people would give up the freedom of self transportation to be packed like cattle into trains and taken somewhere near where they want to go from somewhere semi-near where they started and don't even seem to realize that this is far from the best way to get around.


And I *really* can't comprehend getting into my car 2 hours earlier to drive it to a train station, and then taking the train somewhere. Um... Why not just drive my car where I need to go? And yes, I get that this is New York. But had the city spent half as much money as they've spent over the last 50 years building subways building wider roads, bridges, and better parking, you'd be able to get where you need to go. And if they'd adopted that sort of model, the businesses wouldn't have to be so packed in together in the first place. It's because of the limited locations of mass transit that things get more and more tight. Go with a more spread out model, and you have more space for everything and you don't need the mass transit anymore (or at least not as much).


I know we've had this debate before, and I fully admit this is my personal preference talking. But to me, it's just so much better to spread things out than to crowd them together. It really does seem like a focus on mass transit feeds on itself over time. Because you have it, you don't build as good a road system. More people use it. Business become dependent on where the exit points are and concentrate there. Housing has to be packed more to make it proximate to the transit as well. Over time, this affects the design of your city.

I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.
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#110 Sep 02 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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So your argument is that New York should use up more of some of the most valuable real estate in the world on more roads and parking lots? With the benefit being that LESS buildings will take up space that could be used for more cars?

Brilliant!

If you think mass transit is the reason why East Coast cities are cramped mazes, you need to buy a history book. Or, you know, keep your "mass transit conspiracy" tinfoil hat on.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 8:53pm by Jophiel
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#111 Sep 02 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's just that it's completely alien to people living on the west coast to even think about that level of dependence (or even use) of mass transit


Smiley: dubious

Have you ever been up the west coast? Like out of California? To say Portland or Seattle or no?
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#112 Sep 02 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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We need a smiley that's perpetually digging its own grave deeper.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 12:10am by Eske
#113 Sep 02 2011 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, because Los Angeles' highway system is a pinnacle of efficiency and mobility.
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publiusvarus wrote:
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#114 Sep 02 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, Gbaji just has no clue what he's talking about but he saw something he could whine over and will dig himself in and keep *********

He's comparing a city with a population density of 4k per sq mile to one with 27k per sq mile and saying "Hey, how cumzit you guys just don't make more roads?! You love subways too much!! That's why you gots all them buildings!! Man, you guys are silly!!"
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#115 Sep 03 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
Gbaji's problem with public transportation is pretty obvious. He'd have to be around people of other races, and would need to control his 'urges' (no marks) when around female passengers.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#116 Sep 04 2011 at 4:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji wrote:

I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.


More smog & some of the worst traffic known to man?

You keep your cars, I'll keep my $57 a month pass that gets me, well, anywhere in & around my city per month. Oh, & the $10 it costs me to get a zipcar for an hour if I need to do some shopping? That includes gas, motherfucker.

Ya, it sucked not being able to get home Sunday morning due to THE ONE TIME in the 11 years I've lived in Boston that the T got shut down. But, i work at a hotel, so it worked out.
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#117 Sep 04 2011 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.

More smog & some of the worst traffic known to man?

Joy of living in a glorified suburb. I saw a photo of the San Diego skyline and it looks like Oakbrook or Evanston Illinois.

Speaking of, I saw a pic of the LA skyline on Wiki and man is that ugly. It looks like Sim City.
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#118 Sep 04 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.

More smog & some of the worst traffic known to man?

Joy of living in a glorified suburb. I saw a photo of the San Diego skyline and it looks like Oakbrook or Evanston Illinois.

Speaking of, I saw a pic of the LA skyline on Wiki and man is that ugly. It looks like Sim City.

That's the LA skyline? Awww, it's so cute! It's like, half of midtown Manhattan.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#119 Sep 04 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.
More smog & some of the worst traffic known to man?
Joy of living in a glorified suburb. I saw a photo of the San Diego skyline and it looks like Oakbrook or Evanston Illinois.

Speaking of, I saw a pic of the LA skyline on Wiki and man is that ugly. It looks like Sim City.
That's the LA skyline? Awww, it's so cute! It's like, half of midtown Manhattan.
It's like a city block that wants to grow into a real city one day.
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#120 Sep 04 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I prefer it like we do on the West coast. More room, more freedom. Better.
More smog & some of the worst traffic known to man?
Joy of living in a glorified suburb. I saw a photo of the San Diego skyline and it looks like Oakbrook or Evanston Illinois.

Speaking of, I saw a pic of the LA skyline on Wiki and man is that ugly. It looks like Sim City.
That's the LA skyline? Awww, it's so cute! It's like, half of midtown Manhattan.
It's like a city block that wants to grow into a real city one day.

I once made the same comment driving past Indianapolis one evening. It was like, two square city blocks sitting by itself in the middle of a field of oil refineries. It looked like Jersey City.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#121 Sep 04 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Speaking of, I saw a pic of the LA skyline on Wiki and man is that ugly. It looks like Sim City.
That's the LA skyline? Awww, it's so cute! It's like, half of midtown Manhattan.

Size aside (and I thought/said the same thing about Indianapolis, btw), I mean what I said. It literally looks like Sim City. Minus the spider-monster.
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#122 Sep 04 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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Joph wrote:
I say close to the same thing when driving in Chicago, "If we get lost, we can always just head east until we hit water."


This. Chicago got it right with the southside of the city, well south of State Street anyway. All the east-west streets are numbered. It's that **** northside that's screwy...all those rich people up there and their fancy names.
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#123 Sep 06 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
He's comparing a city with a population density of 4k per sq mile to one with 27k per sq mile and saying "Hey, how cumzit you guys just don't make more roads?! You love subways too much!! That's why you gots all them buildings!! Man, you guys are silly!!"


Has it occurred to you that the reason the population density is 7 times higher is *because* of mass transit? Had they chosen to take a different route, the city itself would have built up differently. Instead of everything being in one central location, you'd have businesses spread out.

You comment about the relative size of downtown LA, but what you miss is that there are a half dozen other "downtown" type office complexes spread out around the county. The exact same total number of businesses and the same amount of money flowing in and out, but not all focused in one area. The point being that had New York not decided to build along a mass transit model, she probably wouldn't work on Manhattan island in the first place, and those who do would be smaller in number and would more easily be able to get in and out.


Mass transit creates the need for itself. It artificially forces businesses and residences to be built in greater density around the exit points of the mass transit system itself. It's not "better". But like many things that liberals like, it has the side effect of forcing people to be more dependent on the government. Shocking how frequently that little side effect crops up.
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#124 Sep 06 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
would more easily be able to get in and out.
It's so cute when country bumpkins think it's difficult to move about in New York
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#125 Sep 06 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji, you must be trollin'.

Edited, Sep 6th 2011 6:36pm by Eske
#126 Sep 06 2011 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
would more easily be able to get in and out.
It's so cute when country bumpkins think it's difficult to move about in New York


I didn't say it was difficult to "move about in" New York. I said it was difficult to get "in and out" of New York (Manhattan specifically). And it is. This whole conversation was sparked by the fact that mass transit is so necessary to getting there that leaving the house 2 hours earlier to get parking at an open train station was still preferable to attempting any other method.

I just found that amazing and felt it was worth commenting on. Feel free to debate the benefits of mass transit if you want, but it seems somewhat silly for you to basically attempt to deny that the issue exists at all. Clearly, it does. Else she wouldn't have had to get up 2 hours earlier to get to work.
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