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Another Illegal Immigrant Stealing American JobsFollow

#1 Aug 20 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — The man who chased down a suspected child abductor and saved a 6-year-old girl from what could have been a horrible fate was honored as a hero Friday. But he is also gaining a new kind of celebrity: as a poster child of sorts for immigration rights in state and national immigration debates.

Antonio Diaz Chacon, 23, is married to an American and has been in the country for four years. But Chacon says he abandoned attempts to get legal residency because the process was difficult and expensive.

At least the blaxican Spider-man was a U.S. citizen. Not content to just harvest lettuce and mow lawns, illegal immigrants--otherwise known as illigremants--are now taking our jobs in the community hero sector. This also has disastrous effects throughout the community. Think, if our children aren't being raped and murdered, what is going to happen to the size of the police force?

The only redeeming part of this story is knowing that conservatives will stay true to their values and rally behind deporting this criminal rather selling out their principles to avoid the PR fiasco the liberal MSM would inevitably kick up.
#2 Aug 20 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
News Story wrote:
Antonio Diaz Chacon, 23, is married to an American


I thought that used to mean automatic citizenship?
#3 Aug 20 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
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Princess ShadorVIII wrote:
Allegory wrote:
News Story wrote:
Antonio Diaz Chacon, 23, is married to an American


I thought that used to mean automatic citizenship?

I blame people like Varus.
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#4 Aug 20 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Princess ShadorVIII wrote:
I thought that used to mean automatic citizenship?

Nope. It's points in your favor and can help with the visa in the meanwhile but it's not guaranteed and still requires a lengthy process.
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#5ThiefX, Posted: Aug 20 2011 at 6:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes you read that right. Drivers License because New Mexico gives illegal alien's a valid form of ID that is used for among other things signing up for social services and registering their kids in public schools. (I guess fraudulently getting tax payer money and services is not a criminal act)
#6 Aug 20 2011 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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I think you should just deport anyone who's original family members were illegal immigrants. I guess that means you're giving the land back to the natives, eh ThiefX?
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#7 Aug 20 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Story wrote:
In a statement, the governor also cited "a litany of well-documented cases of this policy that put the public at risk, one of which occurred literally a few blocks away at a Denny’s restaurant in 2009 when gang members from El Salvador who had driver’s licenses committed a murder."

Did they beat someone to death with their driver's licenses?
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#8 Aug 20 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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#10 Aug 21 2011 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Story wrote:
In a statement, the governor also cited "a litany of well-documented cases of this policy that put the public at risk, one of which occurred literally a few blocks away at a Denny’s restaurant in 2009 when gang members from El Salvador who had driver’s licenses committed a murder."

Did they beat someone to death with their driver's licenses?
You can sharpen the edges and make the license into something like a ninja star.
#11 Aug 21 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them.
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#12 Aug 21 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them.


I'm dying to hear the logic on this one. Please do explain how illegal immigration creates jobs.


(Oh and I like the use of the word "may" cause additional problems........ cute)
#13 Aug 21 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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That's actually a fairly easy concept.

Suppose you run a landscaping company. Every landscaping job you get requires both materials (if they are having you build walls or plant/fertilize) and labor.

If all of your laborers are legal, you are going to be paying them a fairly high amount of money. That means the cost of your jobs goes up, so the amount you charge your customers goes up. That leads to a decrease in amount of jobs you get, which leads to a decrease in the number of laborers you can manage. Even on top of the decreased jobs coming in, each job takes longer because you need to obey labor laws (which means shorter hours, especially since you can't afford long shifts anyway). That FURTHER decreases your profit.

Now, suppose you replace some of those jobs with illegal immigrants. Do some Americans lose jobs there? Of course. But for every American you lose, you replace them with at least two illegal workers for the same cost, and they'll work longer hours.

Now, you get more workers for your investment, and are able to take on more jobs. Furthermore, because your costs per job are lower (since illegal workers will work for less AND work longer hours), you can afford to charge customers less, you have a much higher demand for your services.

As you get more jobs, your company will grow. You will employ more and more people (which will be a mix of illegal and legal workers). In time, your company is now employing more legal workers than it would have been able to support in the other scenario.

Now, so far, we have explained a situation which is good for you as a business owner. But you need to follow all the threads into the greater market (which of course means that you need to imagine a scenario in which many businesses utilize illegal labor).

1. You completing more jobs creates a higher demand for the goods your work requires, such as fertilizer, plants, concrete, bricks, etc. These businesses are now doing better and are able to higher more employees (some of which might be illegal, but many of whom won't be). That leads to more demand on the companies they use for their supplies/services.

2. Cash flow is the best thing for the health of a market. By keeping costs low, illegal workers help to keep money moving through our economy--they keep people spending. If costs were high because all we used was American labor, we WOULD NOT have this kind of flow, and that WOULD be unhealthy. Sure, we could ship all of those jobs to China and keep our low costs. But that's still not doing anything different from illegal workers, except that we send jobs that would have been filled by Americans as well. Not to mention the fact that small businesses, like our contractor, don't get to benefit from that and would still need to use a high-price model.

3. Not all businesses will benefit from illegal workers enough to warrant the risk. For instance, a grocery store. It might certainly have SOME illegal workers (primarily to unpack shipments). But they'd largely be legal workers. But they benefit hugely from illegal workers--they get to sell cheaper products across the board (such as produce) which leads to a larger amount sold. Lower prices creates a larger customer base. A larger customer base creates the need for more workers, like cashiers. Thus, they get to create jobs for legal workers that wouldn't be there if they needed to charge $4 an apple.

As much as politicians ***** and moan about illegal immigrants, the fact remains that our economy would shatter if they were all expelled from the US.
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#14 Aug 21 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThiefX wrote:
Please do explain how illegal immigration creates jobs.

Any population growth requires more food, shelter and the associated infrastructure. The main issue there would be the reverse of the food stamp stimulus thing -- if I move someplace, chances are my food isn't being grown locally, the trucking company that moves my clothes isn't local, etc. So much of the positive impact of my being somewhere is diffused around the nation whereas my own need for employment is very focused in one spot.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 3:54pm by Jophiel
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#15 Aug 21 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar said this:

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Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them


Which is why I asked her/him to explain how that is job creation. In response you said all this:

Quote:
If all of your laborers are legal, you are going to be paying them a fairly high amount of money. That means the cost of your jobs goes up, so the amount you charge your customers goes up. That leads to a decrease in amount of jobs you get, which leads to a decrease in the number of laborers you can manage. Even on top of the decreased jobs coming in, each job takes longer because you need to obey labor laws (which means shorter hours, especially since you can't afford long shifts anyway). That FURTHER decreases your profit.

Now, suppose you replace some of those jobs with illegal immigrants. Do some Americans lose jobs there? Of course. But for every American you lose, you replace them with at least two illegal workers for the same cost, and they'll work longer hours.

Now, you get more workers for your investment, and are able to take on more jobs. Furthermore, because your costs per job are lower (since illegal workers will work for less AND work longer hours), you can afford to charge customers less, you have a much higher demand for your services.

As you get more jobs, your company will grow. You will employ more and more people (which will be a mix of illegal and legal workers). In time, your company is now employing more legal workers than it would have been able to support in the other scenario.

Now, so far, we have explained a situation which is good for you as a business owner. But you need to follow all the threads into the greater market (which of course means that you need to imagine a scenario in which many businesses utilize illegal labor).

1. You completing more jobs creates a higher demand for the goods your work requires, such as fertilizer, plants, concrete, bricks, etc. These businesses are now doing better and are able to higher more employees (some of which might be illegal, but many of whom won't be). That leads to more demand on the companies they use for their supplies/services.

2. Cash flow is the best thing for the health of a market. By keeping costs low, illegal workers help to keep money moving through our economy--they keep people spending. If costs were high because all we used was American labor, we WOULD NOT have this kind of flow, and that WOULD be unhealthy. Sure, we could ship all of those jobs to China and keep our low costs. But that's still not doing anything different from illegal workers, except that we send jobs that would have been filled by Americans as well. Not to mention the fact that small businesses, like our contractor, don't get to benefit from that and would still need to use a high-price model.

3. Not all businesses will benefit from illegal workers enough to warrant the risk. For instance, a grocery store. It might certainly have SOME illegal workers (primarily to unpack shipments). But they'd largely be legal workers. But they benefit hugely from illegal workers--they get to sell cheaper products across the board (such as produce) which leads to a larger amount sold. Lower prices creates a larger customer base. A larger customer base creates the need for more workers, like cashiers. Thus, they get to create jobs for legal workers that wouldn't be there if they needed to charge $4 an apple.


Which I guess is your way of saying "You're wrong Aripyanfar Illegal immigration does cost American jobs" which I find funny because you addressed your post to me not to him/her and never showed how illegal immigration creates jobs.

You showed how illegal immigration has a negative effect on American workers (beautifully I might add, although I don't think that was you're intention) and you did a great job of showing how illegal immigration increases profit for some companies (which I find strange because isn't it you liberals who are always ******** about the evil capitalists stealing American jobs for profit? So I would assume you guys would be the first to run out to the nearest border to protect it)but I'm still waiting for you to explain how if you take something from someone and give it to someone else how that is "creating".


BTW You also stated this :
Quote:
"As much as politicians ***** and moan about illegal immigrants, the fact remains that our economy would shatter if they were all expelled from the US"


This is just blatantly false. It is also the same argument that illegal immigrant rights group try to push off as fact in almost every debate about illegal immigration (the other lie they try to pass off is that the illegal who crosses the border just looking for a job doesn't hurt anything that he/she is just a benign entity)

The fact is a large portion of the money the illegal immigrant makes in this country is never spent in the U.S it is sent back to their country of origin. This is the reason why countries like Mexico have a vested interest in encouraging illegals to cross the border because the money they send home funds their (corrupt) Government.

The simple fact is that whatever "good" the U.S. gets from illegal immigration is far outweighed by the negative effects of that same illegal immigration.

In all seriousness and being a grown up here I find it interesting that if you mention deporting people who entered this country illegaly you are called "racists" and "mean" and etc, etc, etc but if we actually upheld our immigration laws those workers wouldn't be allowed to be used for in essence "slave" labor anymore and if you simply tweek the existing laws to allow guest workers (which most people like the idea of as long as there is strict enforcement if the laws are broken) you could help maintain small business who use unskilled labor to survive all the while protecting those same workers.

#16 Aug 21 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure if ThiefX is actually capable of winning an argument, but I don't think he's come closer than this.

Obviously, more people = more jobs as a general rule, but this:

Quote:
Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them.


is a pretty bold and unsubstantiated claim, especially seeing as there are far more people than people of working age and ability, and yet still there are not ehnough jobs for people able to work.

I mean, ****, I'm not anti-immigration in any way, but this argument is abysmal. The number of jobs is determiend by a very complex mixture of social, technological and economic factors. It is not a one to one relationship with the population.

I'm talking about Ari's post, here, not Jophiel's or iddigory's.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 10:56pm by Kavekk
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#17 Aug 21 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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I think you should just deport anyone who's original family members were illegal immigrants. I guess that means you're giving the land back to the natives, eh ThiefX?

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#18 Aug 21 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Is this the part where someone links all of the illegal immigrant criminal records?

I do have to give props to Obama for focusing his resources on removing the ones with criminal records. Well, those with criminal records that don't include entering the country ILLEGALLY. Evidently his definition of criminal and mine are drastically different.

As someone who deals with logistics daily, I can see how handling each case individually would speed things up. /rolleyes
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#19 Aug 21 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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NephthysWanderer wrote:
I do have to give props to Obama for focusing his resources on removing the ones with criminal records. Well, those with criminal records that don't include entering the country ILLEGALLY.

You should probably get your news from somewhere that gives it slightly more in depth and slightly less in soundbites.
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#20 Aug 21 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer wrote:
Is this the part where someone links all of the illegal immigrant criminal records?

You missed the parody? I thought it was obvious.
#21 Aug 22 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I'm not sure if ThiefX is actually capable of winning an argument, but I don't think he's come closer than this.

Obviously, more people = more jobs as a general rule, but this:

Quote:
Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them.


is a pretty bold and unsubstantiated claim, especially seeing as there are far more people than people of working age and ability, and yet still there are not ehnough jobs for people able to work.

I mean, ****, I'm not anti-immigration in any way, but this argument is abysmal. The number of jobs is determiend by a very complex mixture of social, technological and economic factors. It is not a one to one relationship with the population.

I'm talking about Ari's post, here, not Jophiel's or iddigory's.

The failure of the one-to-one nature of employment to population (adding more people adds the same number of jobs) message getting through to the wider community is one of the greatest information scandals of the past 60 years. Over and over people get concerned with immigration every time unemployment gets high. Governments are constantly concerned with immigration and unemployment. Various governments commission studies with startling regularity: and they all return the same result: increases in national population (whatever origin) do NOT raise OR lower unemployment numbers, and increases in national population (whatever origin) raise the number of jobs in the nation by the same number as the population increase.

I'm aware of 15 such studies, with the same results returned, commissioned over 25 years, by conservative, right leaning, progressive and left leaning governments. When asked to explain the results, the commissions speculate that the goods and services required (demanded) by the new residents average out over the community to supply an equal amount of jobs. So one woman entering the country, buying food, getting a haircut and new clothes for a job interview, renting a unit, is not going to put on one new supermarket cashier, a hairdresser, a clothing sales job and a real estate assistant. But 1000 men, women and children entering the country make for 1000 new jobs, (+/- less than 0.01%) in supermarkets/hairdressers/clothes stores/housing. Even IF most of the manufacturing has been done elsewhere.

This is partly why unemployment rates are expressed as a percentage of the population. Because the unemployment rate is much more a function of the overall economic state of a nation, and not nearly so much a function of the population state of a nation.

And yet time and again these studies just sink out of sight in the back pages of newspapers and the pages of academic journals. My suspicion is that news media KNOW that there is an often unstated, un-politically correct, idea in most of the world community that "immigrants take our jobs". And popular news organisations don't want to alienate their paying base by challenging their worldview so radically. It would have to take a 180 degree turn around in popular perception, and the mainstream is either too frightened, or too similarly ignorant, to start the task.
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#22 Aug 22 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is the part where I'd ask anyone else for a cite, so...

How's it going? Feeling good this morning?


Just kidding. Cite?
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#23 Aug 22 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
This is the part where I'd ask anyone else for a cite, so...

How's it going? Feeling good this morning?


Just kidding. Cite?

This is where I pull the sick card. If I was able to properly research for even short periods at a time, I would have finished my doctorate by now. Strangely, thinking takes more effort than physical movement and my mitochondria aren't playing ball. The best I can tell you is that those 15 studies are from background knowledge learned before I got so sick, which is my most reliable memory bank. I "rehearsed" the "15 studies over 25 years, by all sides of politics" in my head over the years, because illegal immigration has been a sore topic not just in Australia but in many places round the world all my life, and the fact that political parties with very widely differing ideologies kept coming up with results they obviously weren't expecting I found very telling.

I have discovered, in wanting to find old articles that I remember but now want to recover and cite (eg for my doctors) that A: I physically can't flip through papers/magazines without spiking into extreme pain, temporary paralysis, and muscular spasms, followed by several days confined to bed recovering. B: Known publication sources cannot find back articles for me when directly contacted, or need a ridiculous finder's fee. Entire university departments quoted in The Lancet/New Scientist whatever are able to disappear in the space of 5 years, and no-one can dig up the revolutionary new nicotine blood tracer test for blood volume, instead of the much more dangerous old radioactive blood tracer test for blood volume.

Google is often terrible at finding a specific article or batch of articles, I need to taxi both to AND from a library AND lay down to recover from the travel, and $150 academic magazine subscriptions to hunt down stuff doesn't appeal to my bank balance when I can't concentrate on meaningful stuff for more than 15-30 mins every 3 to 7 days.

The more compelling reasons I find against illegal immigration is that if they don't appear in statistics, the government cant' plan properly grouped and maintained services. Secondly I would guess population increase is damaging if public infrastructure does not keep up with it, which it can't if it doesn't know how much and where the population has increased. Thirdly population increases further burden the nation's environment. However, our environment is already over burdened, and we already need to substitute smarter, more efficient products. For example, CHP stations drop electricity consumption by 70% without changing out any appliances in anyone's homes. Compact fluorescents and LEDs are 20% more electricity efficient than incandescent globes or downlights. Many new whitegoods use a 5th the water or electricity of old ones. Insulating houses drop their heating/cooling bills by more than half. Do all this stuff, and a nation like Australia could double its population via immigrants (since our natural birth rate is not replacing us) while STILL dropping the total population's effect on the environment by more than half.
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#24 Aug 22 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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More words please, Gbaji.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 4:36pm by Timelordwho
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#25 Aug 22 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Not enough question marks.
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#26 Aug 22 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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#27 Aug 22 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
I'm not sure if ThiefX is actually capable of winning an argument, but I don't think he's come closer than this.

Obviously, more people = more jobs as a general rule, but this:

Quote:
Every one new person in the nation (like an immigrant, legal or illegal) creates one new job in the nation. So illegal immigrants are job neutral. There may be other problems with additional population, and not having control of your border, but illegals "stealing our jobs" aren't one of them.


is a pretty bold and unsubstantiated claim, especially seeing as there are far more people than people of working age and ability, and yet still there are not ehnough jobs for people able to work.

I mean, ****, I'm not anti-immigration in any way, but this argument is abysmal. The number of jobs is determiend by a very complex mixture of social, technological and economic factors. It is not a one to one relationship with the population.

I'm talking about Ari's post, here, not Jophiel's or iddigory's.


Going to agree with this 100%. It's a pretty weak argument. As Kavekk says, there are a host of factors involved with employment. It just seems unlikely at its face that simply adding more people will magically add more jobs. And yes, I get the demand side argument you also made, but that's just not going to be enough to ensure that 1 to 1 job to immigrant relationship, especially as Joph correctly points out to ensure one for the immigrant where he/she is. If that were the case, why do we bother restricting immigration at all? In fact, one can argue that the reason immigration does not outstrip job growth is because we limit immigration.


Illegal immigration absolutely undermines that. It also conceals the real effects of illegal immigration on employment since quite often both the employment and lack of employment are "off the books". There are legitimate arguments to make with regards to lower cost labor helping producers earn more profits (and thus expand faster and hire more people down the line) and decreasing the costs of the resulting goods. But I think that making such a broad assumption is well outside of the normal scope of an immigration discussion.


You're free to bring it in-scope if you wish (that appears to be your objective), but then you really need to have some kind of evidence and a better argument than simply insisting that it's true.
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#28 Aug 22 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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You're free to bring it in-scope if you wish (that appears to be your objective), but then you really need to have some kind of evidence and a better argument than simply insisting that it's true.


hahahahahahahaha
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#29 Aug 22 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Am I the only one that saw what Al was getting at?
#30 Aug 22 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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I'd hope so, they are your knickers after all.
#31 Aug 22 2011 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the sympathy rate up. But in the end I haven't cited properly on what is a very important issue. And I urge people to look out for studies for themselves. Lies, damned lies, and statistics...
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#32 Aug 26 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I like how the same person who complains about illegal immigrants go ahead and order stuff to an mexican who works in mcDonalds or in a gas station or in any other type of job which no american want to work on.
That and the fact that people dont buy things from companies that only work with american citizens. And complain when these companies dont have the same price of companies that employ illegal immigrants...hypocrisy, go!
#33 Aug 26 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Brisin wrote:
I like how the same person who complains about illegal immigrants go ahead and order stuff to an mexican who works in mcDonalds or in a gas station or in any other type of job which no american want to work on.
That and the fact that people dont buy things from companies that only work with american citizens. And complain when these companies dont have the same price of companies that employ illegal immigrants...hypocrisy, go!


Wait...

So if you complain about illegal immigrants, you aren't allowed to eat at McDonald's or buy gas...? Is every non-white, non-English speaking person an illegal immigrant? Smiley: confused

#34 Aug 26 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Is every non-white, non-English speaking person an illegal immigrant? Smiley: confused


Yes.
#35 Aug 26 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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This thread reminds me I want to read the Ultimate Marvel line, and at the same time don't.
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#36 Aug 29 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Brisin wrote:
I like how the same person who complains about illegal immigrants go ahead and order stuff to an mexican who works in mcDonalds or in a gas station or in any other type of job which no american want to work on.
That and the fact that people dont buy things from companies that only work with american citizens. And complain when these companies dont have the same price of companies that employ illegal immigrants...hypocrisy, go!


Wait...

So if you complain about illegal immigrants, you aren't allowed to eat at McDonald's or buy gas...? Is every non-white, non-English speaking person an illegal immigrant? Smiley: confused



At least all of them, if not more.

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 2:03am by Timelordwho
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