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Sitrep: London looting and riotingFollow

#52 Aug 09 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Somehow I think Nilatai was agreeing with the person BEFORE you, gbaji.
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#53 Aug 09 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I was talking to Olorinus. I didn't see your post.

I agree with you to a degree. The government need to make it harder for people to live if they refuse to work.

And to be clear, I do mean refuse to work. They've made it harder for people to cheat the system by pretending to look for work.

Edited, Aug 9th 2011 8:27pm by Nilatai
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#54 Aug 09 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Oh, I was talking to Olorinus. I didn't see your post.

I agree with you to a degree. The government need to make it harder for people to live if they refuse to work.

And to be clear, I do mean refuse to work. They've made it harder for people to cheat the system by pretending to look for work.



I am sure this opinion will not be popular, but I don't really blame anyone who "refuses to work" for the rest of their lives on earth in service-job ****.

If people were being offered an opportunity to do meaningful, non-degrading work, I would be more inclined to look down on those who refused to contribute their fair share.

But if the best we can offer people is a minumum wage job with no respect for the forseeable future, I don't know why we shouldn't expect they will do what they can to shirk the system.

Let's be real here - the service job economy is toxic - toxic for the mental health of those working in it, and toxic for the planet.

While I am sure that a lot of these folks are just lazy sods, I am also sure that many of them, if they were given the opportunity to do good work that offered them a fair wage and a decent standard of living - would be happy to do so.

I just know from my own experience that I have a very low threshold when it comes to tolerating the kind of bullcrap that is tossed at people who work at low-wage, low-respect jobs.

And it isn't like our societies and communities are offering people a way out of the service industry either. No, we're raising tuition fees, rent in any city where one might glimpse an opportunity are through the roof, our public education systems are a joke... gah.

I just can't blame anyone who doesn't want to work 8 hours a day, get paid the bare minimum and crapped on constantly. No wonder they would rather sit at home and collect a cheque.
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#55 Aug 09 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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I just think people should be productive in the larger society. And, let's face it, the large number of people who refuse to work really just aren't doing that.

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#56 Aug 09 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
I just think people should be productive in the larger society. And, let's face it, the large number of people who refuse to work really just aren't doing that.



I agree... but I question whether a lot of work out there is truly productive. I guess that I am ambivalent towards our consumerist society and what it is doing to the earth, and so I inherently question the value of the work that is involved in much of it.

I mean I can't and won't deny there is a value and dignity in carrying one's own weight and paying our own bills etc. But I can't deny that the world would probably be a lot better without a lot of these rubbish jobs and the indignities they perpetuate.

That said I am doubtful that these looters and rioters have articulated these things to themselves. It isn't as if our society encourages that kind of reflectiveness and self knowledge.

These are angry young people. I doubt they know exactly why they are angry, but we cannot discount their anger, or the inequality and oppression that surely lies at the root of it. Nor can we excuse the way our society has failed to instill them with better values.

But better values can't just consist of judging them for not wanting to work at crap jobs for crappier money and no respect. Who wants that? No amount of pious moralizing on the value of a hard day's work can disguise the raw deal we are handing these people.

I mean look at all the politicians who were on holidays abroad, fat on the public purse, when this broke out. It is hard not to sympathize with the rage of people who have little to no hope for a better life, thinking of their Prime Minister - too busy playing tennis abroad to do his ******* overpaid job. But he had plenty of time to cut the community supports their families relied on, didn't he? I bet none of the austerity measures cut a penny from the paycheques of the politicians.

I have no doubt these hooligans are idiots without a coherant ideology, but I have no doubt poor social planning and a culture of rigid social hierarchies with little hope of mobility created most of them.



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#57 Aug 09 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPbdWuBHIEw

Smiley: lol
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#58 Aug 09 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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http://cjstreems.blogspot.com/index.html

Live stream of a Sikh group defending shops guarding a hindu temple and talking about the riots.

Edited, Aug 9th 2011 10:17pm by zukunftsangst
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#59 Aug 09 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I mean I can't and won't deny there is a value and dignity in carrying one's own weight and paying our own bills etc. But I can't deny that the world would probably be a lot better without a lot of these rubbish jobs and the indignities they perpetuate.


I suppose there's merit in both sides of that. But to me, the bigger issue is about the social effects of attempting to provide for those who don't work (for whatever reason). As we've seen, it's not the dignity of the first generation, but of their children and grandchildren, who grow up in communities in which there are concentrations of those living "on the dole", and in which as a result there simply aren't sufficient jobs available for them to engage in any sort of employment, regardless of whether it's indignant or not.

Most people will put up with crappy jobs if they know that those jobs provide them the opportunities to get better ones later on. It's practically a tradition in the US to work at some form of job which requires wearing a paper hat (or equivalent) along the way. But we tend to expect that you should gradually be able to obtain better jobs with better pay as your work experience and responsibilities increase.

What happens when we create a social safety net is that there aren't sufficient jobs in the area to allow for this effect to happen. Those raised in those areas are lucky to get a crappy job, and very very few will be able to leverages those into something better. The sense of hopelessness this creates has to be crushing over time. At the risk of injecting a free market argument into this topic, this effect can only happen where governments step in to try to "help" the poor. Absent that intervention, such large and concentrated populations can't exist. They wont grow to include that high a percentage of folks without any access to jobs, let alone good jobs.

We create these problems with our own best intentions. And unfortunately, those segments of the population which tend to be the most favored targets of such "help" also tend to be those which have historically been disadvantaged (so those who ethnically different than the majority). This tends to create a secondary racial aspect to the whole problem.


Quote:
These are angry young people. I doubt they know exactly why they are angry, but we cannot discount their anger, or the inequality and oppression that surely lies at the root of it. Nor can we excuse the way our society has failed to instill them with better values.


Absolutely. I guess where I take a different approach is that I believe we failed them by trying to single them out for special "help" in the first place. Unintended consequences and all of that.

Quote:
I have no doubt these hooligans are idiots without a coherant ideology, but I have no doubt poor social planning and a culture of rigid social hierarchies with little hope of mobility created most of them.


Again though, I'll counter with the argument that it was too much social planning that caused this.
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#60 Aug 09 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Well Gbaji we are all cultured by our experiences.

I was in the care of the director at age of majority. In plain talk, that means that the state was my legal guardian.

So what you see as interventionalism that undermines equality, I see as necessary supports helping people such as my child-self escape harmful environments and access knowledge. I see it as the state filling in the gaps in community that have been created by this accidental explosion of civilization.

Do you think children who are subject to the predatory impulses or ineptness of the adults in charge of them should not be given the chance to thrive?

And how many poor home environments are because of the involuntary poverty thrust upon families who are sacrificed to the kind of social darwinism you propose?

You talk about families cultured by the dole, but you don't talk about what perpetuates the dole. It is not plutocrats who are taxed too much, it is an uncaring and ridiculously unequal society which stacks the deck against the vast majority of the population and then invents myths to explain why they are downtrodden.

Matthew 4:4 "'One can't live on bread alone, we need every word that comes from the mouth of God."

We need not only physical nourishment, but spiritual nourishment. The mind can't be healthy if the body is sick. Right now the body politic is sick.

yeah... waxed poetic...disregard

Sick of crap jobs that give no dignity and little wage
Sick of being asked to bear the weight of the nation
while leaders are on vacation
sick of watching cities burn
while yearning for work that earns
our loyalty and pride

Sick of being asked to ratify
actions that destroy earth
I pledge my allegience to the dirt
that nourishes



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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#61 Aug 09 2011 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR the Eccentric wrote:
Somehow I think Nilatai was agreeing with the person BEFORE you, gbaji.


I think he should sig it anyway, for the irony.
#62 Aug 10 2011 at 4:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
I'd like to see these people try and loot any areas with a strong Millwall fanbase...


Speaking of vigilantes, Millwall fans apparently decided en masse not to make the trip down to Plymouth for their Carling Cup tie - instead protecting Eltham High Street from trouble, while chanting: "No-one loots us, we don't care."
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/early-doors/article/344031/
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#63 Aug 10 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
I'd like to see these people try and loot any areas with a strong Millwall fanbase...


Speaking of vigilantes, Millwall fans apparently decided en masse not to make the trip down to Plymouth for their Carling Cup tie - instead protecting Eltham High Street from trouble, while chanting: "No-one loots us, we don't care."
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/early-doors/article/344031/

I used to live in Eltham, I've got a lot of family and friends who were in that crowd.
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#64 Aug 10 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting...
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#65 Aug 10 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Well Gbaji we are all cultured by our experiences.

I was in the care of the director at age of majority. In plain talk, that means that the state was my legal guardian.

So what you see as interventionalism that undermines equality, I see as necessary supports helping people such as my child-self escape harmful environments and access knowledge. I see it as the state filling in the gaps in community that have been created by this accidental explosion of civilization.

Do you think children who are subject to the predatory impulses or ineptness of the adults in charge of them should not be given the chance to thrive?


This is a completely different issue. I'm talking about supporting adults who aren't able to obtain jobs to support themselves. That's not even remotely the same as providing housing and shelter for children who's parents have died, abandoned them, or are unfit.

My argument is that by "helping" poor people to have housing and food and whatnot even though they aren't earning enough to obtain those things for themselves, we ultimately create the very conditions of poverty itself. Social programs tend to work best when those in need of them are nearby. It's just more cost effective to help a thousand people all living in tenements within a 2 block radius of the government hand-out office than if they're spread around. As a result, you end out over time creating concentrations of people living on the dole in areas in which there are not sufficient jobs to employ them even if they wanted to.

This process effectively creates urban prisons which are just as real as any other prison. The bars aren't there physically, but it's just as hard to escape.

Quote:
And how many poor home environments are because of the involuntary poverty thrust upon families who are sacrificed to the kind of social darwinism you propose?


Far far fewer than are created via the process of trying to prevent that darwinistic process. Absent that social service "help", you don't get that same amount of concentration of poverty in single areas. It's pretty easy to see this if you think about it. Imagine that 15% of your population is "poor". If that 15% is concentrated in areas, so that 100% of those living in those areas are poor, you've effectively removed any chance of the people living there ever improving their lot in life. And you'd done the same for their children as well.

Spread that same 15% among the rest of the population and they're surrounded with opportunity. They wont all succeed, but at least they'll have a chance. Each individual has a chance at success. They aren't just lumped in with the group called "poor" and left to a miserable existence on public assistance.

It's that lack of opportunity which causes the sorts of desperation and despair which in turn leads to riots of this sort. Those people just don't care because they don't believe that they can improve their lives, so why bother trying? Surely you can see that concentration of that sort also makes rioting like this happen. Riots require high concentrations of people all feeling the same thing. They can congregate to riot, but it's particularly easy when everyone in your neighborhood is in the same crappy situation you are in, right?

Quote:
You talk about families cultured by the dole, but you don't talk about what perpetuates the dole. It is not plutocrats who are taxed too much, it is an uncaring and ridiculously unequal society which stacks the deck against the vast majority of the population and then invents myths to explain why they are downtrodden.


A free market stacks the deck against no one though. It rewards effort and skill. It's only when we start applying alternative social agendas that we start stacking the deck against groups of people. I just honestly can't see how any amount of racism in the free market (for example) could be more effective at limiting the outcomes of minorities than modern liberal social policies do. Feel free to make a case otherwise, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
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#66 Aug 10 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai wrote:
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting...

But... you're not on a horse. Smiley: frown
#67 Aug 10 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting...

But... you're not on a horse. Smiley: frown

I'm on a...payroll?
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#68 Aug 10 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
But... you're not on a horse. Smiley: frown
Screenshot
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#69 Aug 10 2011 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting...


Have you considered that there aren't actually enough jobs to go around? Job centres tend not to increase the number of jobs filled by very much. They just shuffle the deck chairs on the Hindenburg. Unemployment is at 7.7% and that's not going to change anytiem soon.

I'm not suggesting looting fill the void, but you seem to be in thrall to the myth that most of the people on unemployment actually want to be.

Edited, Aug 11th 2011 5:17am by Kavekk
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#70 Aug 10 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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#71 Aug 11 2011 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Well Gbaji we are all cultured by our experiences.

I was in the care of the director at age of majority. In plain talk, that means that the state was my legal guardian.

So what you see as interventionalism that undermines equality, I see as necessary supports helping people such as my child-self escape harmful environments and access knowledge. I see it as the state filling in the gaps in community that have been created by this accidental explosion of civilization.

Do you think children who are subject to the predatory impulses or ineptness of the adults in charge of them should not be given the chance to thrive?


This is a completely different issue. I'm talking about supporting adults who aren't able to obtain jobs to support themselves. That's not even remotely the same as providing housing and shelter for children who's parents have died, abandoned them, or are unfit.

My argument is that by "helping" poor people to have housing and food and whatnot even though they aren't earning enough to obtain those things for themselves, we ultimately create the very conditions of poverty itself. Social programs tend to work best when those in need of them are nearby. It's just more cost effective to help a thousand people all living in tenements within a 2 block radius of the government hand-out office than if they're spread around. As a result, you end out over time creating concentrations of people living on the dole in areas in which there are not sufficient jobs to employ them even if they wanted to.

This process effectively creates urban prisons which are just as real as any other prison. The bars aren't there physically, but it's just as hard to escape.

Quote:
And how many poor home environments are because of the involuntary poverty thrust upon families who are sacrificed to the kind of social darwinism you propose?


Far far fewer than are created via the process of trying to prevent that darwinistic process. Absent that social service "help", you don't get that same amount of concentration of poverty in single areas. It's pretty easy to see this if you think about it. Imagine that 15% of your population is "poor". If that 15% is concentrated in areas, so that 100% of those living in those areas are poor, you've effectively removed any chance of the people living there ever improving their lot in life. And you'd done the same for their children as well.

Spread that same 15% among the rest of the population and they're surrounded with opportunity. They wont all succeed, but at least they'll have a chance. Each individual has a chance at success. They aren't just lumped in with the group called "poor" and left to a miserable existence on public assistance.

It's that lack of opportunity which causes the sorts of desperation and despair which in turn leads to riots of this sort. Those people just don't care because they don't believe that they can improve their lives, so why bother trying? Surely you can see that concentration of that sort also makes rioting like this happen. Riots require high concentrations of people all feeling the same thing. They can congregate to riot, but it's particularly easy when everyone in your neighborhood is in the same crappy situation you are in, right?

Quote:
You talk about families cultured by the dole, but you don't talk about what perpetuates the dole. It is not plutocrats who are taxed too much, it is an uncaring and ridiculously unequal society which stacks the deck against the vast majority of the population and then invents myths to explain why they are downtrodden.


A free market stacks the deck against no one though. It rewards effort and skill. It's only when we start applying alternative social agendas that we start stacking the deck against groups of people. I just honestly can't see how any amount of racism in the free market (for example) could be more effective at limiting the outcomes of minorities than modern liberal social policies do. Feel free to make a case otherwise, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
The free market also rewards cunning, deceit and exploitation. The rest of this post is some of your better fiction. Srsly, have you ever met a single one of these folks you seem to know so well?
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#72 Aug 11 2011 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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#73 Aug 11 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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#74varusword75, Posted: Aug 11 2011 at 10:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Elinda,
#75 Aug 11 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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#76 Aug 11 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Hello Rioters. Look at your friend, now back to me. Now at your friend, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using petrol bombs and started using job centre he could potentially be me. Look down, back up. Where are we? You're at an interview with the man your friend could work for. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's an application form to that job you need. Look again. The form is now money. Anything is possible when you get a job and stop looting...


Have you considered that there aren't actually enough jobs to go around? Job centres tend not to increase the number of jobs filled by very much. They just shuffle the deck chairs on the Hindenburg. Unemployment is at 7.7% and that's not going to change anytiem soon.

I'm not suggesting looting fill the void, but you seem to be in thrall to the myth that most of the people on unemployment actually want to be.

Edited, Aug 11th 2011 5:17am by Kavekk

I live in a predominantly working class area. The chavlet children around me couldn't care less about getting jobs. These are the people rioting and looting, the 11-20 year olds. It's ridiculous. When I was 16 I worked at McDonald's, it was the worst experience for my life and I absolutely hated it. I still did it. There's nothing stopping these people from getting a **** job, except for the fact they can live more comfortably if they don't work at all.

I've claimed JSA, last summer. The woman at the job centre seemed to think that more than half of the people there just pretend to look for work because JSA pays out more than the dole does per week. It would be trivially easy to bring in measures where it would be impossible to lie about looking for work. Something like getting a reference number from a potential employer when submitting a job application, CV or attending an interview.


I'm not saying everyone who is unemployed is like this, but 7.7% would go down by a significant fraction if we could bring in measures to stop those who refuse to work.

Besides, the best way to remain unemployed and get a lot of money from the government is to become a student. Smiley: grin
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