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#27 May 11 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
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#28 May 11 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
The people you love have done things for you/with you. There is a tangible reason for showing them your affection and appreciation.
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#29 May 11 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
Compulsory love is no love at all. Let alone simultaneously loving someone who you must also fear.

This is all wash, I have known love before and I know it now. This does not mean I grovel at the feet of the one I love. Love entails mutual respect for one another, grovelling demeans this completely and debases the one on his or her knees (hold the jokes about that).
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#30 May 11 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
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Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
Then where do you get off praying to him for special treatment? If it was in his plan he'd have done it any way, if not, too bad!


The plan involves having people do it of their own free will.. if He just did it "any way" as you say it would violate are free choice to believe.
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#31 May 11 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
Then where do you get off praying to him for special treatment? If it was in his plan he'd have done it any way, if not, too bad!


The plan involves having people do it of their own free will.. if He just did it "any way" as you say it would violate are free choice to believe.
Haha, if you say so, sure.
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#32 May 11 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
The people you love have done things for you/with you. There is a tangible reason for showing them your affection and appreciation.


Being created into existence and being given the opportunity to exist in an eternal perfected universe is a pretty tangible reason to be grateful.

Nilitai wrote:
This does not mean I grovel at the feet of the one I love. Love entails mutual respect for one another, grovelling demeans this completely and debases the one on his or her knees (hold the jokes about that).


It's perspective, isn't it? If I was not in love with a girl and I saw you on your knees proposing to her or professing your undying love for her whispering all those sweet nothing and giggling with someone I would probably scoff and jeer too!
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#33 May 11 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Being created into existence and being given the opportunity to exist in an eternal perfected universe is a pretty tangible reason to be grateful.
Um, "perfected universe"? Seriously?


Kelvyquayo wrote:
It's perspective, isn't it? If I was not in love with a girl and I saw you on your knees proposing to her or professing your undying love for her whispering all those sweet nothing and giggling with someone I would probably scoff and jeer too!
Does your god do this to you in return?
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#34 May 11 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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Soooo, I'm just headed back to Dublin. No big doins like Demea.
#35 May 11 2011 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Lol, I notice he hasn't responded to me at all. :P

Quote:
God will do and plan whatever God want with you because God already knows what you would do in all possible circumstances that could possibly happen to you.


So he knows what you'll do, and he puts you in a situation to do it. And you call that a free choice?

Sad world. I'd prefer no free choice to a crappy kind of freedom like that. You aren't living your life the way you want to, your living the life god picked for you, acting EXACTLY as he wanted to.

You see the problem? All those atheists that are going to ****? God CHOSE the situation to put them in, and that situation is the one who rejects him. According to your argument, people who are evil, or violent, etc, are only such because it's the path God chose for them. They could have been world leaders had he chosen differently.

So that woman who tries for 12 years to get pregnant, finally does, and then has a miscarriage that utterly destroys her faith? These were all the choices god made for her.

That kind of god is an *******.
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#36 May 11 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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You seem to show a dramatically keen understanding of some of the key pivots of trying to understand God. I don't quite get your reasoning though on why you appear to utterly reject the idea of a sentient creator.

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He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them.


Is this logically sound?

Quote:
Sorry, but that's not impressive. And it isn't free will.


I used to be very vexed on this. Now it seems that in order to truly define something as Free Will there must be a choice between right and wrong.. One cannot simply start applying feeble concepts like which pant leg you put your foot into first in the morning... it's kinda of a strawman if you think about it.

Quote:

I see no reason to praise such a god, should he exist. He clearly isn't there to guide me, because he doesn't know how to.


So you are declaring that you don't accept God because of what a few denominations of churches have to say about God?
That's kind of weak really and I don't actually believe that this is your true reasoning.

God does know-all but he does not cause you to choose to turn to the cross or not.
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#37 May 11 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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Um, "perfected universe"? Seriously?


Right now the physical universe that we live in is not the same as the "universe" that the Source is in.

We as free beings therefore are finite compared to the Source.

The Source has given us finite beings a way to be in the "Perfected" universe that the source (God) will provide. We cannot exist there unless our fleshly ways of beings (sins) are forgiven by God through the mere fact that we chose to believe that Jesus is real and resurrected.. et cetera.

Quote:
Does your god do this to you in return?


Yes; once you establish a personal relationship with the creator of the universe it becomes quite elating..
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#38 May 11 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Right now the physical universe that we live in is not the same as the "universe" that the Source is in.

We as free beings therefore are finite compared to the Source.

The Source has given us finite beings a way to be in the "Perfected" universe that the source (God) will provide. We cannot exist there unless our fleshly ways of beings (sins) are forgiven by God through the mere fact that we chose to believe that Jesus is real and resurrected.. et cetera.
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Quote:
Yes; once you establish a personal relationship with the creator of the universe it becomes quite elating..
Oh good. So all I have to do is force myself to believe something that I can't possibly believe. Or better yet, how about if I go down some kind of Pascal's wager route and just fake it. Will that work?
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#39 May 11 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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That kind of god is an @#%^.


This earth is only bit of **** that saved people will ever experience and the only bit of heaven that damned people will experience.

Like it or not it is the way it is. All of your arguments against that Truth are fruitless.
The life in the flesh is finite and fleeting.. the life in the spirit is ETERNAL. God has provided all with a way Out.
If you disagree with it it is your own skewed way of looking at it.. from fleshcolourd glasess.. To try Jesus the Anointed is the only chance to NOT be Judged for our Flesh Choices.

YOu ask WHY we have a Choice in the first place?? Well the alternative is to have no free will and as such we are just like trees and rocks.
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#40 May 11 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
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Nilatai
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What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


I can't tell you that; what I do know is that they will get what they deserved because God is the utter standard of fairness and righteousness. Sounds zealous, no? lol but it's Truth. I have plenty of ideas of what happened with that but none of which are relevant. Some say they were waiting in Hades, others have other ideas.. like I said; if God is God then God is fair and we know they would have gotten fair treatment. God did carve right and wrong into our hearts anyway..

Quote:
h good. So all I have to do is force myself to believe something that I can't possibly believe. Or better yet, how about if I go down some kind of Pascal's wager route and just fake it. Will that work?


God has etched some form of faith/belief capacity in all of us... if you had no ability for faith then you wouldn't walk out your front door in the morning for fear of any of the horrible things that could happen to you.. but you do anyway.

Once someone actually cries out to God (however that may be) God will work in your life to aid you in your walk. The Lord is the Shepherd.
you know the drill. If humbling your self and asking that which likely created you to enable you to believe and receive that Holy Spirit of the Anointed is considered a "wager" well that is a wager worth taking.
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#41 May 11 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them.

Is this logically sound?


YOU were the one who said that's how he operated.

Quote:
You seem to show a dramatically keen understanding of some of the key pivots of trying to understand God. I don't quite get your reasoning though on why you appear to utterly reject the idea of a sentient creator.


I reject the idea because it's ridiculous. The only way to rectify the existence of god with the world is to discard logic completely. And that's ludicrous.

We live in a world where there is massive amounts of suffering every day. Children starve to death, pedestrians get hit by cars, natural disasters kill 20,000 people in hours, etc. And this is REGULAR. Evil isn't a once in a while kind of thing, it happens everywhere, all the time. Even if you want to pretend like free will of a few men is better than the suffering of millions of innocent people, you can't account for natural evil.

If a God existed, he'd either be powerless to stop this evil, unaware of what the **** was going on, or not give a ****.

Even if you want to drone on about God creating a brighter tomorrow, the fact is that he still doesn't care about you today. It doesn't matter how much you suffer if it means some greater good will occur in the future. Your a means to an end and you don't matter--you would be nothing more than a part in god's toy universe.

Furthermore, the idea of free will alone is ridiculous (and so you can't explain away moral evil, like genocides). The universe is a place of matter and energy, and everything functions according to physical laws. Humans are no different. When we take action, it's because our brain ordered our bodies to through physical processes. The brain itself is a physical entity, designed by millions of years of evolution. "Acting" is just the organic step in a long chain of physical reactions dictated by physical laws. I am writing this post right now because of the specific organization of particles that formed following the Big Bang, which were directed by physical laws to create the world and, eventually, me.

Humans act in every situation according to their beliefs. Beliefs are largely not "chosen" in any sense. Your parents raise you a specific way, in a specific society. Various events happen as you age. Etc. All of these external factors make you who you are. You believe in God because physical processes led you to believe in him, and you have turned to evangelism because of that belief. You didn't do it freely--you did it because the universe is the way it is.

All of our actions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli. That's it. There is no meaning to life, there is no God waiting to welcome you home after you die (and, if there is, he's either a prick, a wimp, or an idiot). And there is no free will.
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#42 May 11 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Sell out.

So do you still live over the bar?
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#43 May 11 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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ElneClare wrote:
Sell out.

So do you still live over the bar?


Hey, If it's worth anything to ya I still believe in faeries and dragons! and no I DON'T think they are all evil.

I finally moved from there; but it do work downtown a LOT now!
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#44 May 11 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Hey, If it's worth anything to ya I still believe in faeries and dragons! and no I DON'T think they are all evil.


...

Please let that not be true.
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#45 May 11 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I can't tell you that; what I do know is that they will get what they deserved because God is the utter standard of fairness and righteousness. Sounds zealous, no? lol but it's Truth. I have plenty of ideas of what happened with that but none of which are relevant. Some say they were waiting in Hades, others have other ideas.. like I said; if God is God then God is fair and we know they would have gotten fair treatment. God did carve right and wrong into our hearts anyway..
Okay good, so if god is fair then if I live a good life I'll be rewarded. If I stay true to my convictions and despite not believing in him, do my best to minimise the suffering of others and help people to live better lives, I'll be fine. Because, y'know, punishing a good person for simply not believing wouldn't be just now, would it?



Kelvyquayo wrote:
God has etched some form of faith/belief capacity in all of us... if you had no ability for faith then you wouldn't walk out your front door in the morning for fear of any of the horrible things that could happen to you.. but you do anyway.
What?

Kelvyquayo wrote:
Once someone actually cries out to God (however that may be) God will work in your life to aid you in your walk. The Lord is the Shepherd.
you know the drill. If humbling your self and asking that which likely created you to enable you to believe and receive that Holy Spirit of the Anointed is considered a "wager" well that is a wager worth taking.
I used to believe in god. I used to be a rather devout Catholic, actually. I'm sure with you being a Protestant of some description you'll say I was evil and sinful because I was a Catholic, and I'll probably agree with you. Many of the Catholic dogmas are quite evil when you look at them. However, I found other avenues to be more, rewarding, shall we say. Now this isn't to say I'm not open to the possibility of some kind of higher power, I just find it to be incredibly unlikely that it is Yahweh.

Oh and believing that the whole Universe was created with you in mind isn't being humble. Just saying.
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#46 May 11 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Good luck!

Rambling hash of Cartesian philosophy,among others, but I do like him.


Humans have always asked, Why am I here? Why do bad things happen? How can we make things better?

They have most commonly come up with the idea of a Creative, Redemptive, and Enabling spirit(s). If you have not yet done so, read some of Matthew Fox and his work on Creation centered spirituality.

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#47 May 11 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I never knew Kelvy was Charlie Sheen. Makes sense now.

winning
#48 May 11 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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An omnipotent being can do anything, which includes the illogical. If you suppose a being with this quality it is foolish to argue that it cannot do something simply because it is a paradox. This foolishness is stacked upon the foolishness of supposing such a quality in the first place, so that all you need is a square block to complete two rows. With a flourish you guide just such a block home, gaining a staggering 834 points and failing seventh grade forever.

In a stupour you wander about town, drinking from a bottle of white spirit stashed inside a brown paper bag. 'What is logic, anyway?' you think. It seems to you, as you awkwardly adjust your trousers, that it's a pretty big assumption to take reality as logical. Perhaps your conception of logic is flawed - just as there is no way to tell your senses are flawed, there is no way to tell your reasoning isn't, too.

You don't notice the doors you open or the stairs you climb, and it's almost a surprise to find yourself in Kelvyquayo's flat, right arm thrusting, pneumatically stabbing his writhing torso with a rusty knife. Where did you even get that? When did you even get here?

It's the final straw. As your victim's life fades, you succumb to aporia. Armed with absolute skepticism and half a bottle of overproof paint thinnerk, you stagger into the world a new man.

The possibilities are limitless.

Edited, May 12th 2011 1:48am by Kavekk
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#49 May 11 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Going on memory here, but I'm pretty sure yes, they're pretty much said to be forsaken. The world before Jesus' sacrifice was a world in which all men were unforgiven for their sin. Maybe there was some tiny caveat, but I don't think so. Essentially, the entire period in between Eve eating the forbidden fruit and Jesus' sacrifice is one big field day for ****'s population.

Then again, going by both historical record and probably by biblical record as well, there weren't really that many people on Earth in those times. Not an insignificant amount, mind you, but nothing evem compared to the population of the 1950's (~2B, I think).
#50 May 11 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)
Answering that question would require me to first acknowledge your existence is equal to mine, and not just a simple instrument to increase my post count.
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#51 May 11 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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ChanchanXI wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Going on memory here, but I'm pretty sure yes, they're pretty much said to be forsaken. The world before Jesus' sacrifice was a world in which all men were unforgiven for their sin. Maybe there was some tiny caveat, but I don't think so. Essentially, the entire period in between Eve eating the forbidden fruit and Jesus' sacrifice is one big field day for ****'s population.

Then again, going by both historical record and probably by biblical record as well, there weren't really that many people on Earth in those times. Not an insignificant amount, mind you, but nothing evem compared to the population of the 1950's (~2B, I think).
Sucks to be Moses then I guess. Oh and, y'know, Noah. I guess the only one that got off scott free was Enoch, not having actually died and all.
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