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#52 May 11 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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YOU were the one who said that's how he operated


wrong, I specifically said that he does NOT choose for you. His knowing what you will choose does not allow you to shed the responsibility of your choices.

The only way to rectify the existence of god with the world is to discard logic completely. And that's ludicrous.

What you know as logic is a greek invention. You very well know that logic can be skewed based on the perception of two people in a debate over it. It's why debates exist. If you universe is operating in a duelistic framwork as many believe than they must think that existance must have an equal positive and negative in a nice mathematical logical way.... but anyone who has rudimentary knowledge of physics knows that this is not the case..
Logic is just a tool to measure that which we perceive.

We live in a world where there is massive amounts of suffering every day. Children starve to death, pedestrians get hit by cars, natural disasters kill 20,000 people in hours, etc. And this is REGULAR. Evil isn't a once in a while kind of thing, it happens everywhere, all the time. Even if you want to pretend like free will of a few men is better than the suffering of millions of innocent people, you can't account for natural evil.

Yes indeed this world is what happens when God is turned away from.. as you say. Evil is Regular. Evil is not something that we do but it is something that we simply are. All things that are facing away from God are. Evil is simply the lack of God and NOT the opposite of God. God has no opposite.

If a God existed, he'd either be powerless to stop this evil, unaware of what the hell was going on, or not give a sh*t.


God will not stop people from being people.. otherwise..y'know.. that whole Free Will thing?
God, however, has provided a very very simply way... to look to the Cross and cry for mercy.

All of us are sinners and hypocrites. That may be what you are not grasping.

Even if you want to drone on about God creating a brighter tomorrow, the fact is that he still doesn't care about you today. It doesn't matter how much you suffer if it means some greater good will occur in the future. Your a means to an end and you don't matter--you would be nothing more than a part in god's toy universe.

He cares about you so much that He is letting you have the chance to accept His existence through Jesus... There is no other way for you to grasp the creator expect feeble eg0centric flesh-based ways.. which only lead us in circles and against the will of our creator; yes God desires us ALL to turn to Him but he will not get that desire.

When we take action, it's because our brain ordered our bodies to through physical processes. The brain itself is a physical entity, designed by millions of years of evolution. "Acting" is just the organic step in a long chain of physical reactions dictated by physical laws.

This is the same argument as your previous. If you believe that all of our actions are merely ripples in time/space that have reverberation from the beginning of time/space then I would say that the beginning of time/space is God who, as you said, is outside of time/space.
Being that the ripple itself was designed by a Prime Mover ( i guess is what you are saying) I see no reason why not to suggest the even as some particles or waves (whatever) are on that path that is rippling out from the beginning of time/space the fact that they may either turn from POSITIVE to NEGATIVE perhaps addresses that in some way..
As I said before; the true free will is to accept the creator or not.. ALSO I do not see anything in that physics model that says that the particles may not make their OWN ripples in time/space which are of their own creation and yet have no bearing on the entirety of time/space.

All of our actions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli. That's it. There is no meaning to life, there is no God waiting to welcome you home after you die (and, if there is, he's either a prick, a wimp, or an idiot). And there is no free will.[/quote]

If you are spiritually dead then I agree that thee is no meaning to life, nor God waiting to welcome you..

Body, Mind, and Soul. You have cut Soul out of the equation; foolishly.
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#53 May 11 2011 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Humans have always asked, Why am I here? Why do bad things happen? How can we make things better?

They have most commonly come up with the idea of a Creative, Redemptive, and Enabling spirit(s).


From my shamanistic\druidic yada yada experiences I have found that while much of these things are soothing to the vexed soul temporally but that they mostly are merely other lost beings who pander to mankinds ego and can never offer ultimate salvation for the time when the Great Sprit decides for the entire scroll to roll up.
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#54 May 11 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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Stop de-railing my vacation thread!
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#55 May 11 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Stop de-railing my vacation thread!

LMAO


I'm trying to derail your vacation to HELL!!!

/Night On Bald Mountain Inro Queue!!
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#56 May 11 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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What you know as logic is a greek invention. You very well know that logic can be skewed based on the perception of two people in a debate over it. It's why debates exist. If you universe is operating in a duelistic framwork as many believe than they must think that existance must have an equal positive and negative in a nice mathematical logical way.... but anyone who has rudimentary knowledge of physics knows that this is not the case..
Logic is just a tool to measure that which we perceive.


If you believe this, there's no reason talking to you. Logic is the system by which all human knowledge is organized. Math, physics, EVERYTHING function according to Logic, which is a pure field that does not, in any way, depend on the way the world is. It's a purely rational exercise.

The Greeks didn't create logic. Logic wasn't created.

You don't know what logic is.
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#57 May 11 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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What follows, then? That one had better put on gloves before reading the New Testament. The presence of so much filth makes it very advisable. One would as little choose "early Christians" for companions as Polish Jews: not that one need seek out an objection to them . . . Neither has a pleasant smell.--I have searched the New Testament in vain for a single sympathetic touch; nothing is there that is free, kindly, open-hearted or upright. In it humanity does not even make the first step upward--the instinct for cleanliness is lacking. . . . Only evil instincts are there, and there is not even the courage of these evil instincts. It is all cowardice; it is all a shutting of the eyes, a self-deception. Every other book becomes clean, once one has read the New Testament: for example, immediately after reading Paul I took up with delight that most charming and wanton of scoffers, Petronius, of whom one may say what Domenico Boccaccio wrote of Ceasar Borgia to the Duke of Parma: "e tutto Iesto"--immortally healthy, immortally cheerful and sound. . . .These petty bigots make a capital miscalculation. They attack, but everything they attack is thereby distinguished. Whoever is attacked by an "early Christian" is surely not befouled . . . On the contrary, it is an honour to have an "early Christian" as an opponent. One cannot read the New Testament without acquired admiration for whatever it abuses--not to speak of the "wisdom of this world," which an impudent wind bag tries to dispose of "by the foolishness of preaching." . . . Even the scribes and pharisees are benefitted by such opposition: they must certainly have been worth something to have been hated in such an indecent manner. Hypocrisy--as if this were a charge that the "early Christians" dared to make!--After all, they were the privileged, and that was enough: the hatred of the Chandala needed no other excuse. The "early Christian"--and also, I fear, the "last Christian," whom I may perhaps live to see--is a rebel against all privilege by profound instinct--he lives and makes war for ever for "equal rights." . . .Strictly speaking, he has no alternative. When a man proposes to represent, in his own person, the "chosen of God"--or to be a "temple of God," or a "judge of the angels"--then every other criterion, whether based upon honesty, upon intellect, upon manliness and pride, or upon beauty and freedom of the heart, becomes simply "worldly"--evil in itself. . . Moral: every word that comes from the lips of an "early Christian" is a lie, and his every act is instinctively dishonest--all his values, all his aims are noxious, but whoever he hates, whatever he hates, has real value . . . The Christian, and particularly the Christian priest, is thus a criterion of values.

--Must I add that, in the whole New Testament, there appears but a solitary figure worthy of honour? Pilate, the Roman viceroy. To regard a Jewish imbroglio seriously--that was quite beyond him. One Jew more or less-- what did it matter? . . . The noble scorn of a Roman, before whom the word "truth" was shamelessly mishandled, enriched the New Testament with the only saying that has any value--and that is at once its criticism and its destruction: "What is truth?". . .

-Friedrich Nietzsche

God's dead, I fucked his corpse.
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The boulder, if not the boldest, question.

I rest my case.

P.S. Pensive sends his regards.

Edited, May 12th 2011 2:12am by Kavekk
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#58 May 11 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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An omnipotent being can do anything, which includes the illogical. If you suppose a being with this quality it is foolish to argue that it cannot do something simply because it is a paradox. This foolishness is stacked upon the foolishness of supposing such a quality in the first place, so that all you need is a square block to complete two rows. With a flourish you guide just such a block home, gaining a staggering 834 points and failing seventh grade forever.


Omnipotency doesn't demand you can do ANYTHING, it demands that you can do anything POSSIBLE.

Theists hold that God is omnipotent. They don't hold that God could choose not to exist if he wished it, because they believe God HAS to exist. There's no other possible way for anything to be. Even the system in which there is no universe would still contain God.
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#59 May 11 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
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Kavek wrote:

God's dead, I fucked his corpse.
Friedrich Nietzsche


I wouldn't put so much credence in the viewpoint of a very sad very opinionated man who went insane.
He was reacting to the morality of the flawed christian not the True Christ.


As for the logic puzzle.. that's all it is. You are then assuming that God MUST create a rock that He cannot lift. It would not happen. YOu say "but but what if" well that is your own problem. It is just a puzzle which is why logic can't work when it is wielded by beings such as ourselves.


Edited, May 11th 2011 10:22pm by Kelvyquayo
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#60 May 11 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omnipotency doesn't demand you can do ANYTHING, it demands that you can do anything POSSIBLE.


You need to be more precise. You should say logically possible, else it can be parsed as a circular argument.

In any case, omnipotence is usually defined as unlimited power. If there are limits of any sort, power cannot be unlimited. if you want to pick some Aquinas definition, fine, but why do you choose to do so? What basis does this have in scripture?

Quote:
I wouldn't put so much credence in the viewpoint of a very sad very opinionated man who went insane.
He was reacting to the morality of the flawed christian not the True Christ.


The very word "Christianity" is a misunderstanding--at bottom there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. The "Gospels" died on the cross. What, from that moment onward, was called the "Gospels" was the very reverse of what he had lived: "bad tidings," a Dysangelium.14It is an error amounting to nonsensicality to see in "faith," and particularly in faith in salvation through Christ, the distinguishing mark of the Christian: only the Christian way of life, the life lived by him who died on the cross, is Christian. . . To this day such a life is still possible, and for certain men even necessary: genuine, primitive Christianity will remain possible in all ages. . .
-Friedrich Nietzsche
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#61 May 11 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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Nietzsche wrote:
The very word "Christianity" is a misunderstanding--at bottom there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. The "Gospels" died on the cross. What, from that moment onward, was called the "Gospels" was the very reverse of what he had lived: "bad tidings," a Dysangelium.14It is an error amounting to nonsensicality to see in "faith," and particularly in faith in salvation through Christ, the distinguishing mark of the Christian: only the Christian way of life, the life lived by him who died on the cross, is Christian. . . To this day such a life is still possible, and for certain men even necessary: genuine, primitive Christianity will remain possible in all ages


Is he trying to say that "Good News" (Gospel) died on the cross? This is really the ramblings of a man who has lost the consciousness of God and is raging from it.
Every bit of this is approaching the reality of the resurrection from the presupposed notion of it's being wholly false so it really contributes nothing to this. He really is just following in the footsteps of the other classic philosphers.. seeing that there is a reality that they cannot reach, knowing that they are damned.. and yet refusing to admit that their creator is their because their fear the accountability for their actions.. unaware of God's mercy.
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#62 May 11 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
wrong, I specifically said that he does NOT choose for you. His knowing what you will choose does not allow you to shed the responsibility of your choices.


I sincerely believe that you are just a troll, but I'll respond anyway (however futile it may be).

So lets say I designed a robot.
I programmed how the robot would act in every possible situation. Then, I placed that robot in a situation in which it harmed someone. You are saying that the robot should be responsible for the actions that it was programmed to do?

Also, I'd like to point out that I can't believe anything you say because you are just a fleshy sin filled human. You should reconsider your belief in God because it is tainted by original sin. That's what you get for the actions of your great * (number of human generations) grandparents douche.
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#63 May 11 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Default
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kiworrior wrote:

So lets say I designed a robot.
I programmed how the robot would act in every possible situation. Then, I placed that robot in a situation in which it harmed someone. You are saying that the robot should be responsible for the actions that it was programmed to do?


So let's say God designed you.
He programmed how you would act in every possible situation. Then, He placed you in a situation where you actually could choose to follow His will or your own will. You choose you own will over his will which is why we live in an evil world. Our will not His. Then he gives you a way to do his will that is within the bounds of your will.. that way is believing in the Christ. There are the things that you do within the bounds of your framework; that framework is flesh and therefore I would agree the free will is nil; but even in that we can cry out against it and ask God for his forgiveness and salvation from the flesh.

Your analogy does not work because there is no other basis for an omnipotent/omniscient God granting free moral agency to beings so that they may recognize a state of being that is contrary to the Creator's will.
That is the point of the Free Will which God has given us. Will to turn toward Him or against Him. He had granted it as he had NOT granted it on dogs and cats and lizards.. you know?

Quote:
Also, I'd like to point out that I can't believe anything you say because you are just a fleshy sin filled human. You should reconsider your belief in God because it is tainted by original sin. That's what you get for the actions of your great * (number of human generations) grandparents douche.


This used to be my number one argument. But understand that these things that I believe are from scripture and yes, as radical as it sounds this scripture MUST be the Word of God... because 1) to think that Creator would NOT communicate with humans in history is LUDICROUS and 2) The ONLY instance of this happening in all of human history started with the Torah and right on down the line... because IF it IS from the Supreme Being then I cannot ever say that it is InAccurate.
It is God's Holy Spirit and saving grace which has enabled my unworthy and sinfull rotten soul into Salvation through Faith in God's Anointed One.

Does this sound crazy? How ELSE do you think God would do it? If God wants it done then it's going to get done.. and here is the only reference in history to a thing professing to be God of the universe and yet not being part of mankinds ego and pandering to his fleshly needs like sex and power. This is why God has no image.. all there is is the Word.




Edited, May 11th 2011 11:28pm by Kelvyquayo
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#64 May 11 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Aren't you the one that used to have a picture of Q as your avatar? I didn't read your post (I may later), but if so, welcome back.


and Yes, I would still be using Q if I weren't so cheap. You should read my post and try to convince me I'm wrong. If you can't you have to cry out to the Lord tonight :p
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#65 May 11 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Does this sound crazy?


Only most of it.
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#66 May 11 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some of you are way too easily trolled.

Welcome back, Kelv. Smiley: smile
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#67 May 11 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I still think you are a Troll, but I'm bored so I'll bite again.

Kelvyquayo wrote:
kiworrior wrote:

So lets say I designed a robot.
I programmed how the robot would act in every possible situation. Then, I placed that robot in a situation in which it harmed someone. You are saying that the robot should be responsible for the actions that it was programmed to do?


So let's say God designed you.
He programmed how you would act in every possible situation. Then, He placed you in a situation where you actually could choose to follow His will or your own will. You choose you own will over his will which is why we live in an evil world. Our will not His. Then he gives you a way to do his will that is within the bounds of your will.. that way is believing in the Christ. There are the things that you do within the bounds of your framework; that framework is flesh and therefore I would agree the free will is nil; but even in that we can cry out against it and ask God for his forgiveness and salvation from the flesh.

We can't choose to follow his will or our own will, we have no choice because we are programmed. We could say that we are indeed following his will, because he determined how we would act in every possible situation and then placed us in a situation in which he knew our actions. So, our actions are according to his will, choice isn't involved at all.

Kelvyquayo wrote:

Your analogy does not work because there is no other basis for an omnipotent/omniscient God granting free moral agency to beings so that they may recognize a state of being that is contrary to the Creator's will.
That is the point of the Free Will which God has given us. Will to turn toward Him or against Him. He had granted it as he had NOT granted it on dogs and cats and lizards.. you know?

I have no idea what you mean here, care to clarify?

Kelvyquayo wrote:

Quote:
Also, I'd like to point out that I can't believe anything you say because you are just a fleshy sin filled human. You should reconsider your belief in God because it is tainted by original sin. That's what you get for the actions of your great * (number of human generations) grandparents douche.


This used to be my number one argument. But understand that these things that I believe are from scripture and yes, as radical as it sounds this scripture MUST be the Word of God... because
1) to think that Creator would NOT communicate with humans in history is LUDICROUS and
2) The ONLY instance of this happening in all of human history started with the Torah and right on down the line... because IF it IS from the Supreme Being then I cannot ever say that it is InAccurate.
It is God's Holy Spirit and saving grace which has enabled my unworthy and sinfull rotten soul into Salvation through Faith in God's Anointed One.

Ignoring the problem of free will:
Yes, but even your understanding of scripture is tainted. So your conclusions that come from your tainted understanding are also tainted. EVERYTHING you think, say, or do is tainted by evil. You can't say that you are inline with God's will because you are always tainted. The best you can hope to do is not make things worse, by not exercising your own will at all. The most good one can ever hope to do is to make no choices at all, because every choice is tainted. Being a slave is the best earthly life you could hope to live, and even better would be to die as soon as possible, because then you would only exercise your tainted will a minimum amount.




Edited, May 12th 2011 12:13am by kiworrior
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#68 May 11 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Just for the record, I fUcking love me some idiggory.

I'll simply add this, from Christopher Hitchens:

"Of course you have free will, the boss insists on it!"
#69 May 11 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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We can't choose to follow his will or our own will, we have no choice because we are programmed. We could say that we are indeed following his will, because he determined how we would act in every possible situation and then placed us in a situation in which he knew our actions. So, our actions are according to his will, choice isn't involved at all.


You do understand that this "programming" as you are choosing to label it is the actual state of what it actually is. What I mean is that to Have any form or free will no matter how small or in what form is to be in a place Separate from God which is why we are here on this flawed rotting universe and not with God.. we are expected to choose this crazy thing that God has put there that will allow us through our own choice to have our fleshly evils washed away so that we may enter eternity in God's Kingdom. The Cross is what is there above all other empty philosophies. It really it the point of all existence; for people who truly Love.


Quote:

Kelvyquayo wrote:

Your analogy does not work because there is no other basis for an omnipotent/omniscient God granting free moral agency to beings so that they may recognize a state of being that is contrary to the Creator's will.
That is the point of the Free Will which God has given us. Will to turn toward Him or against Him. He had granted it as he had NOT granted it on dogs and cats and lizards.. you know?


I have no idea what you mean here, care to clarify?


You are speaking of flawed humans creating flawed robots for flawed purposes and trying to use that for an analogy for the entire purpose of human creation, I was just pointing out that there really can be no precendent of any such thing that we can try to come up with.
The Robots thing kind of works when I explain how I could just build a bunch of robots who said "I love you" when I pushed a button but then it would have no real value until I seperated them from my temporal existance through the act of granting them free will of their own... angels and other beings who all exist in the universe who have a choice between God and darkness. I was also saying that those animals don't seem to have to think about such things as we are discussing.

Quote:
Yes, but even your understanding of scripture is tainted. So your conclusions that come from your tainted understanding are also tainted. EVERYTHING you think, say, or do is tainted by evil. You can't say that you are inline with God's will because you are always tainted. The best you can hope to do is not make things worse, by not exercising your own will at all. The most good one can ever hope to do is to make no choices at all, because every choice is tainted. Being a slave is the best earthly life you could hope to live, and even better would be to die as soon as possible, because then you would only exercise your tainted will a minimum amount.


HAHA, now who's trolling.
When you have a relationship with God your life changes, my friend; so that no, everything that I touch isn't tainted.
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#70 May 11 2011 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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O NOEZ Mah Xtian RATInZ iz got teh percecutions!!

lol
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#71 May 11 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:

Quote:
Yes, but even your understanding of scripture is tainted. So your conclusions that come from your tainted understanding are also tainted. EVERYTHING you think, say, or do is tainted by evil. You can't say that you are inline with God's will because you are always tainted. The best you can hope to do is not make things worse, by not exercising your own will at all. The most good one can ever hope to do is to make no choices at all, because every choice is tainted. Being a slave is the best earthly life you could hope to live, and even better would be to die as soon as possible, because then you would only exercise your tainted will a minimum amount.


HAHA, now who's trolling.
When you have a relationship with God your life changes, my friend; so that no, everything that I touch isn't tainted.


Yeah, I was kind of trolling there :)

But St. Augustine wasn't when he pretty much said the same thing.

He even went so far as to say that it was impossible to earn salvation. And only through God's grace could a human be granted salvation, and that all humans deserved eternal hell just for existing.

I'm paraphrasing, of course.
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#72 May 11 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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#73 May 12 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can understand a feeling of divinity, I just think we need to be a little less sure that our particular name is the name of god. From history, lore and myth I would say that the name of god always remains the deepest mystery, which is why we must always guard against believing in our own language, fully, spiritually.

The map is not the territory. Even if we have a beatific vision it is is at best, a fantasy until it plays itself out in reality.
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#74 May 12 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Old but pertinent.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#75 May 12 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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So Kachi, what is your cosmology?
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#76 May 12 2011 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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"Because there are laws such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."


God may exist, or may have existed in the past, but God wasn't necessary for the big bang to happen nor is He necessary for the universe to continue existing. I can't say for sure there isn't (or wasn't) a God, but you can't prove to me there was (is) one either. Even if there is one, though, He would be governed by the same laws that all of the Universe is governed by (Physics, gravity, etc.)

I'd like to believe in God, as an eternal afterlife is a much more attractive option than my consciousness simply ceasing to exist. But logically, I just can't accept the Christian version of one. That isn't God's fault, should He exist, it's the people spreading His word that @#%^ up the message.

I do believe that Jesus existed & he sure seems like he was a cool dude. But again, generations of Christians have @#%^ed up His message too. I also don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God (immaculate conception, God impregnated Mary), but he could have been in the sense that we're all son's and daughter's of the creator (if he exists).

We know there are other planets out there & odds are there is life on some of them. But if we were created in His image & should some of that life on other worlds be intelligent; then how does God fit in?
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#77 May 12 2011 at 2:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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While I really don't want to get into this Troll-turned-whatever thread, I would like to put my two cents in on one particular point(mostly since a lot of people I knew in high school used it as a reason that there could be no other intelligent life in the universe):
Omegavegeta wrote:
We know there are other planets out there & odds are there is life on some of them. But if we were created in His image & should some of that life on other worlds be intelligent; then how does God fit in?
That's only difficult to reconcile if you take the "in His image" to mean literally "our bodies look like He does". I've always looked at it as our souls being crafted as a reflection(not sure that's the word I want to use) of His being. Which means to me that there could be millions of intelligent species in the galaxy who look nothing alike, but all their souls shine with His glory as well.

At least, that's what I believe.
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#78 May 12 2011 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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That's only difficult to reconcile if you take the "in His image" to mean literally "our bodies look like He does". I've always looked at it as our souls being crafted as a reflection(not sure that's the word I want to use) of His being. Which means to me that there could be millions of intelligent species in the galaxy who look nothing alike, but all their souls shine with His glory as well.

At least, that's what I believe.


I don't want this to come across as douchey, so I'll do my best to be kind. Keep in mind I don't really care what anyone else believes, nor do I think my agnostic views are the be all end all: I don't know if He exists (existed), but despite your Faith I doubt you could say that you DO know he exists. If you can, that's awesome as I have the utmost respect for anyone who can have that much blind faith in anything.

Anyhoo, I think different folks get different things out of reading the bible. Hell, look at Fred Phelps if you need a clear example of what the bible was certainly never intended for. But, that being said, there have been a lot of "revisions" to Christianity as time passes & technology/knowledge increased to a point where what the bible says, literally, CANNOT be true.

The story of creation is just one example. For most Christians, it cannot be taken literally nowadays with the overwhelming evidence against it. Those who do take the story of creation literally are denying science for no other reason than what they were taught that what the bible says is, literally, true.

So, if ET beams down tomorrow & says, "What's up?", I know I can count on the church to say the same thing you said: it's only our souls that were created in his image (even if that isn't what it actually says).

Funny enough, that's the same argument progressive Christians used when slavery was an acceptable practice.
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#79 May 12 2011 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
So Kachi, what is your cosmology?


I'm borrowing terms as best I can, but I'm an agnostic atheist, a causal determinist, and a utilitarian humanist. Those are the more concise approximations of my perspectives on religion, metaphysics, and philosophy. As for creation itself, I expect that the universe has always existed, time and space are essentially infinite, and that what we commonly refer to as the Big Bang describes an incident that explains the orientation of only a small section of the actual universe. e.g., two of a trillion universes gravitate and collide, and the result is a big bang.
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#80 May 12 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
So Kachi, what is your cosmology?


I'm borrowing terms as best I can, but I'm an agnostic atheist, a causal determinist, and a utilitarian humanist. Those are the more concise approximations of my perspectives on religion, metaphysics, and philosophy. As for creation itself, I expect that the universe has always existed, time and space are essentially infinite, and that what we commonly refer to as the Big Bang describes an incident that explains the orientation of only a small section of the actual universe. e.g., two of a trillion universes gravitate and collide, and the result is a big bang.
Interesting take on the multiverse hypothesis. It's one that is certainly gaining more weight, too. I'm sure someone will step in and present infinite regression to you, though.
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#81 May 12 2011 at 3:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
I don't want this to come across as douchey, so I'll do my best to be kind.
Don't worry about it too much. You can't come across any worse than the fundamentalists I mentioned going to high school with. They called me a Devil Worshipper for suggesting that the Bible wasn't 100% literal. Smiley: laugh

Omegavegeta wrote:
But, that being said, there have been a lot of "revisions" to Christianity as time passes & technology/knowledge increased to a point where what the bible says, literally, CANNOT be true.

I like to think of it this way: First if we assume that everything in the Bible is 100% the word of God(ignoring the probability that humans have made edits to it since He gave us the original), then I like to think that humanity when we were given His word was like a child asking about where babies come from - intelligent, but without enough experience or frame of reference to make sense of everything he wished to tell us. And just like a parent might, He told us what we generally needed to know, some parts as allegory, others as a simplification of what was actually going on. And just like the child, we're learning and applying our increased knowledge in a way that allows us to fathom more of what he told us.

Generally though, I'm a believer that the Bible has in fact seen edits where humans felt the need. As such, I try to avoid focusing on its specifics and take from it only the most general message, which I like to hope has been left more or less intact.

Omegavegeta wrote:
Those who do take the story of creation literally are denying science for no other reason than what they were taught that what the bible says is, literally, true.
Those, to me, are simply the ones who have not grown enough to see the world we have been given, so they must rely on the simplified and allegorical form. One day they'll grow and learn to accept the amazing wonder of this universe in which we live. Until then, we can only wait for them and gently try to help them along so that they'll one day see the glory right before them.

Omegavegeta wrote:
So, if ET beams down tomorrow & says, "What's up?", I know I can count on the church to say the same thing you said: it's only our souls that were created in his image (even if that isn't what it actually says).
Some will. The Vatican has already suggested that intelligent life out in the universe is not in contradiction with the faith.

Others will say that the aliens are demons sent by Satan to fool us and steal our souls. It'll run the whole gamut. Personally, I think that just because I believe that we could necessarily trust that they have our best interests at heart. I mean, I believe other humans have souls and I really don't trust most of them either.


Omegavegeta wrote:
Funny enough, that's the same argument progressive Christians used when slavery was an acceptable practice.
I'm not entirely certain what you mean by that.
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#82 May 12 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not entirely certain what you mean by that.


That when Christian Abolitionists were arguing with Christian slavers, they said our souls were all made in His image. While the slavers believed in a "white" God, so since Africans weren't white they weren't made in His image & it was A-OK to have them as slaves.
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#83 May 12 2011 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
I'm not entirely certain what you mean by that.


That when Christian Abolitionists were arguing with Christian slavers, they said our souls were all made in His image. While the slavers believed in a "white" God, so since Africans weren't white they weren't made in His image & it was A-OK to have them as slaves.
Ah, okay. I see what ya mean.
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#84 May 12 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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You need to be more precise. You should say logically possible, else it can be parsed as a circular argument.

In any case, omnipotence is usually defined as unlimited power. If there are limits of any sort, power cannot be unlimited. if you want to pick some Aquinas definition, fine, but why do you choose to do so? What basis does this have in scripture?


Most philosophers consider "possible" and "logically possible" to be the exact thing in most situations. The simplest way to state it is that the world cannot be such that it entails a paradox. God falls within the scope of the "world," but not necessarily the scope of the universe.

Logic is generally seen as a fundamental fact about the world--a higher law that determines what may or may not occur. But it isn't prohibitive, either, because the nature of what it forbids.

Even religions generally agree on this. It's important because, if god existed outside of logic, the free will argument for why moral evil exists wouldn't work. That is to say, God would be able to eliminate moral evil without devaluing choice. Doesn't matter if it's logically impossible--God isn't bound by logic.

And if MORAL evil on top of natural evil exists, and god could prevent it without sacrificing free will, his benevolence is seriously questionable at that point.

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#85 May 12 2011 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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#86 May 12 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:

Most philosophers consider "possible" and "logically possible" to be the exact thing in most situations. The simplest way to state it is that the world cannot be such that it entails a paradox. God falls within the scope of the "world," but not necessarily the scope of the universe.


So, St.Anselm's ontological proof for god?

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Thus even the fool is convinced that something than which nothing greater can be conceived is in the understanding, since when he hears this, he understands it; and whatever is understood is in the understanding. And certainly that than which a greater cannot be conceived cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is even in the understanding alone, it can be conceived to exist in reality also, which is greater. Thus if that than which a greater cannot be conceived is in the understanding alone, then that than which a greater cannot be conceived is itself that than which a greater can be conceived. But surely this cannot be. Thus without doubt something than which a greater cannot be conceived exists, both in the understanding and in reality.
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#87 May 12 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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They also left out some of the books from the bible. Thomas and Judas both wrote books that they left out.
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#88 May 12 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Reasoning God is cute. I've always been somewhat mystified by believers who felt the need to justify their faith, or who tried to rationally explain that which, by definition, is irrational. Faith, required by the Christian tradition, is a belief absent commonly defined "proof".
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#89 May 12 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.

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#90 May 12 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.



I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
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#91 May 12 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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kiworrior wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:

Quote:
Yes, but even your understanding of scripture is tainted. So your conclusions that come from your tainted understanding are also tainted. EVERYTHING you think, say, or do is tainted by evil. You can't say that you are inline with God's will because you are always tainted. The best you can hope to do is not make things worse, by not exercising your own will at all. The most good one can ever hope to do is to make no choices at all, because every choice is tainted. Being a slave is the best earthly life you could hope to live, and even better would be to die as soon as possible, because then you would only exercise your tainted will a minimum amount.


HAHA, now who's trolling.
When you have a relationship with God your life changes, my friend; so that no, everything that I touch isn't tainted.


Yeah, I was kind of trolling there :)

But St. Augustine wasn't when he pretty much said the same thing.

He even went so far as to say that it was impossible to earn salvation. And only through God's grace could a human be granted salvation, and that all humans deserved eternal hell just for existing.

I'm paraphrasing, of course.





This is true of Augustine. We cannot "earn" anything in order to make God owe us anything. God created us. God will never OWE us anything. This is a big hang up for many people.. as they feel that God could ever be unfair when they cannot realize that there may be aspects of reality that they are unaware of and that they may be wrong about a great many things.
We do not earn God's grace. It we earned it it wouldn't be "grace" it would just be a payment for work. That doesn't work. Just ask the Hebrews.
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#92 May 12 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
]
Nobody gets God from a book, Kelvy.
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#93 May 12 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.



I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
They build a plexiglass platform out over the abyss knowing full well they'll not see everything, but that maybe they'll see a bit more.

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#94 May 12 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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#95 May 12 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Stephen Hawking wrote:
"Because there are laws such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."


God may exist, or may have existed in the past, but God wasn't necessary for the big bang to happen nor is He necessary for the universe to continue existing. I can't say for sure there isn't (or wasn't) a God, but you can't prove to me there was (is) one either. Even if there is one, though, He would be governed by the same laws that all of the Universe is governed by (Physics, gravity, etc.)


Good to see you, Omega.

The crux of Hawkins' work is trying to prove that there was no Big Bang and hence no beginning of everything. The problem with the Big Bang was that all of the "intellectuals" of the scientific community were forced to deal the the impossible illogical notion that Something came from Nothing and it left too much room for God theories.. this of course is a threat to the mind of any person claiming to have any scholarly scruples in those time, was it not? It still is. They started desperately digging for a way to have a complete unified theory which did not require a beginning.. Hawkins' is all about that shyte.

and indeed God cannot be proved like you say. Being that the reason for our being here is to come to know God, it is a unique and profound journey for everyone.
YOu are talking about laws and physics; but it seems that a definition of a sentient creator of everything I admit is beyond my understanding of what He is capable of or if it could be governed by that which it created.

Omegavegeta wrote:
I'd like to believe in God, as an eternal afterlife is a much more attractive option than my consciousness simply ceasing to exist. But logically, I just can't accept the Christian version of one. That isn't God's fault, should He exist, it's the people spreading His word that @#%^ up the message.


I totally agree that Christians can be as flawed as everyone else. This is what the Bible is essentially full of.. How flawed people actually are. I once thought that no one needed to be really saved.. Then I realized that God did very clearly set a standard that no one can meet without asking God for help.

Omegavegeta wrote:
I do believe that Jesus existed & he sure seems like he was a cool dude. But again, generations of Christians have @#%^ed up His message too. I also don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God (immaculate conception, God impregnated Mary), but he could have been in the sense that we're all son's and daughter's of the creator (if he exists).


Yes: any for of religion, I think, is the result of people having trouble developing a personal relationship with God.. But I cannot say that Jesus was like any other Human because he was the Specific Symbol of God's Reaching Out to Human-kind in order to let them be saved from the fate of the flesh. A person that is ordained by God for this purpose is indeed not like any other man. It was part of God's plan from the beginning.

Omegavegeta wrote:
We know there are other planets out there & odds are there is life on some of them. But if we were created in His image & should some of that life on other worlds be intelligent; then how does God fit in?


I don't know. I kind of think that God has done a great many things and created a great many things that we are unaware of for purposes far above our understanding.
My own notion is that God will use aliens to wipe us out in the end times just like he used the Babylonians to wipe out the Kingdom of Judah.. but that's my opinion.








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#96 May 12 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
]
Nobody gets God from a book, Kelvy.


You can't deny that if the particular message in those Words were desired by God to be God's message to the world; the it would be possible and plausible.
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#97 May 12 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.



I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
They build a plexiglass platform out over the abyss knowing full well they'll not see everything, but that maybe they'll see a bit more.



more like; they build a rickety decrepit half rotting bridge to try to get across and can never ever make it..
OR if they ask That which put them there for wings they just fly across.
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#98 May 12 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.



I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
They build a plexiglass platform out over the abyss knowing full well they'll not see everything, but that maybe they'll see a bit more.



more like; they build a rickety decrepit half rotting bridge to try to get across and can never ever make it..
OR if they ask That which put them there for wings they just fly across.
Salvation without sentience is useless or doesn't even really exist I guess.

Welcome back Kelvy. Besides God, what's new?
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#99 May 12 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
God falls within the scope of the "world," but not necessarily the scope of the universe.


This is ridiculous. If, by definition "God" is omnipotent and omniscient and is the source of all time/space and in fact every thing that Is.. then God could not possible be outside of the scope of the universe.
idiggory wrote:

Logic is generally seen as a fundamental fact about the world--a higher law that determines what may or may not occur. But it isn't prohibitive, either, because the nature of what it forbids.


How do you account for the notion that concepts such as logic and paradox as a so-called "higher law" is still merely labeled that from a lesser force then that law that it is trying to define and thus flawed to its core. Greek logic works for little mind games.. but will naturally fail when wielded by that which is lesser than it to try to account for notions wholly above it's scope.

idiggory wrote:
Even religions generally agree on this. It's important because, if god existed outside of logic, the free will argument for why moral evil exists wouldn't work. That is to say, God would be able to eliminate moral evil without devaluing choice. Doesn't matter if it's logically impossible--God isn't bound by logic.And if MORAL evil on top of natural evil exists, and god could prevent it without sacrificing free will, his benevolence is seriously questionable at that point.


How does this work if there are only 2 logical choices? In order for there to BE a choice there must the an antithesis of elements.. people call them "good and evil". I also call them toward God or Away from God.
All of your talk of denying it's existence because it doesn't live up to a lesser and impossibly flawed standard of morality is pure folly.

You know if you are so stuck on Greek philosophy why are you ignoring the concept of Logos; the notion that things LOGICALLY exist that cannot ever be understood through Logic?



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#100 May 12 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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#101 May 12 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Elinda wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Reasoning God is cute.
It's vain. It only thinks it's cute. At least that's what I gathered from skimming the thread.



I'm quite aware that there is a stark limit to how far anyone can present such a concept and that no one can ever be "talked into" or persuaded to believe.

One of the prime points, however, to all of this is that once people reach the edge of that limit do they just shrug and turn around or do they choose to look over the edge (that is when the "abyss" looks back and it is not the abyss at all but your salvation unto eternity).
They build a plexiglass platform out over the abyss knowing full well they'll not see everything, but that maybe they'll see a bit more.



more like; they build a rickety decrepit half rotting bridge to try to get across and can never ever make it..
OR if they ask That which put them there for wings they just fly across.
Salvation without sentience is useless or doesn't even really exist I guess.

Welcome back Kelvy. Besides God, what's new?


Thanks!

Why would you think saved means lack of sentience? We are who we are; but we all have hang ups for many different reasons that cause us to do and think many different things.. but we still will always be whom we be :)

Besides God.. I'm engaged.. got a great chill job that pays well.. recently got my car totaled 2 weeks ago but am getting my new one tomorrow! WOOOO
No kids yet.. a few more guns.. playing LOTRO..got the woman to play it too (ELENDILMIR)

Blessed!
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