Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

JESUS CHRIST!! what a wall o'text!!Follow

#1 May 11 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Hi all and greetings to the rest!
I'm glad to see some of the same old people touting around your bloated intellects like so many dung beetles trekking across a sandy wasteland of lameness (=28)cough .

It is good to see that your families are thriving and that the geysers of bile are erupting blissfully as ever before, I recollect often and think warmly of punching my monitors in the face those many hours wasted whilst attempting to communicate with you great elitist F-tards.

I hope that none had been killed or maimed too horriblied, except for Nobby; of course. Mobiuslawd may do well to be maimed so as to have chance to improve his face.

Now that those pleasantries are out of the way I am starting this as a thread not just about Christianity but rather the questions of existence, everything, 42, et al.. WHAT else is new!? RIGHT? No sh*t
I'm going to try really hard not to make a wall of text here about this though; yeah..

So after all of the spiritual blah blah blah and searching and attempting to formulate so kind of coherent answer or indeed even question of just what the @#%^ is going on around here with the universe etc by way of life and death and the world and observations and meditations into the depths of the religions and philosophies of both East and West; through attempting to map the paths of the Soul through twisting and spiraling layers of layers of space and time through branches of cultures and languages; the meaning of emotion and memory coupled with eternity and love..,ALL of this, have I finally made a conclusion. This forum has witnessed many of my speculations and suppositions; to the delight of some and the dismay of others. Of this I say that a great deal of the QUESTIONING itself was in vain, as indeed the question was completely false: trying to seek enlightenment. The great irony of enlightenment is that the seeking of it in itself is purely vain; as in the end you die. yay! "I'm enlightened!!" we shout; well even if we learned to float in the air and speak telepathically it wouldn't change the fact that we are never truly in control and are finite creatures and thus indeed OMNIA VANITAS.

Now there were several statements in that previous line which I'm sure many would argue with. I'm sure that it will be in vain.

So the one fundamental thing here is the belief in a CREATOR.
Without regurgitation of philosophy 101; Were you to believe in a SOURCE for something then you must logically conclude that stuff comes either from One or Many. To go farther, of course, you have to come to regard this source as having a source and down the line; I mean this is simple ;logic here. From thence , however, we have the question of an Ultimate Source that is to say a ONE.
If you can come to believe that a Terminal Source is the source of all creation; that is to say that we are Created by One and not Many.. then you are on the right track.

After this point; (that is if you have come to terms with the notion that you were CREATED..) then to proceed you must ask of the nature of this creator. The problem here being that being the creature, that which is created, you are not going to ever come to see the utterly true nature of that which is Creator. As so and so put it; like a river trying to reach higher than its source (CS Lewis?).

I think one major issue is if this creator is conscious or not. This is also a matter of people trying to bring that which is high to that which is lower and if you really consider the logic of people rejecting the notion of a living God because they can't fathom the mere fact that they can't fathom it is just garbage, really. It's is poor investigation if one cannot think of a thing from all angles. When one contemplates the reality of God seriously, one will actually attempt to consider the possibility that it is real and then take a look at the world around them. Quite often people reject what they see because that which they see doesn't coincide with THEIR OWN personal notion of what THEY think that the Creator should be; it doesn't meet to THEIR standards.. and once again a case of the river trying to go higher than the source and thus rejecting the source because it is not on the same level ground as lower parts.

Does this make any sense? Is this not just simple logic here? Is it so far fetched that people are so egocentric that they cannot accept a notion that does not make THEM the center of universe? Think about it; I'm not talking about 10 armed elephant gods and lofty pasta dieties; I'm talking about the one and true living God that created everything and never had shape that man conceived of.

Why did I come to conclude that YHWH is this God? LOGIC LOGOS?

Here it is; IF there is a supreme being who created people then one would ask "WHY did this supreme being create people?" Honestly for a human to ask why God did anything is an effort in futility; people say that it is a copout; but if I refused to lift up a bus off of a person its not a copout, its because its impossible. Therein even lies the concept; FREE WILL.
I profess that above other creatures that we know of; human beings above all things have free will; we can recognize a Good and and Evil above other creatures and we can CHOOSE to reject God. Now this is the hard part for so many people, but to come to terms with a Creator God, then one must consider the meaning of Good and Evil; not a standard of human but a standard of God.

Back to Free Will.. The concept if pretty simple to consider. If you come to terms with a Living God, that is to say God that is all knowing etc, then WHAT IS THE POINT?
Free Will answers that question. We were created so that God may have beings who have freely of their own accord chosen to turn toward their creator. I mean truly FREELY without domination.
People often say "Well if God wanted everyone to believe then why doesn't God appear on everyone's TVs and monitors or in the middle of Times Square on New Years and 'say worship me'!?". Well if that happened that would kinda defeat the purpose of free will wouldn't it? I suppose another good analogy is like a billionaire trying to find someone who loves them just for them.. What do you do? How do you get them to prove that they truly love you and turn to you? You set something up that will prove their willingness to be with you beyond the greed. That of course is where The Anointed One comes in and where the debates really get tricky.

Many people are willing to say that there might be a God, but they usually just stop right there.. because to go any farther might mean that they might have to start paying attention alittle better... they don't actually stop and consider that (once again):

- IF this God exists
- Designed to have beings to share perfected creation with
- Designed these beings to be able of REJECTING their creator

We see it as Flaws.. people say "Why did this god of love create us with flaws??" Is the freedom to willingly choose a flaw??
If we were designed to simply love our creator then we would be no different than animals.
God doesn't want robots. God want those whose faces are toward him by means of their own personal faculties.
To continue:

- God needs a way to communicate his message while at the same time not dominating people and thus negating free will.
- The Jews
- The Anointed One (Jesus Christ)
- The Rest of Humankind

Why?
Because this Earth is a corrupted place as its roots are in corruption; here's why; Our existence in the flesh is that which separates us from God. Therefore the Earth as we know it and even as our flesh knows it is in no way going to last. Hence those who have indeed demonstrated to God that they indeed have their faces turned toward him shall indeed be the ones who will share that eternity.
There are many who say that this is a fairy tale make-believe land all made up so that we sleep better at night..

I say that most people sleep better at night NOT believing that judgment may await them for the actions of their mind, body, and soul.
I can see that logic in saying that people made up a lot of things to make them feel better about life and death; but most people are too trapped staring at their world through the mirror of their flesh to realize that that logic is a two-way street.

So then, to try to wrap this up, Why Jesus? It seems to me that the lengths that people go to NOT believe it are wholly irrational; but really it is the Spirit which enables us to truly believe.
What is the need for Faith?
How else can a Jew or Gentile be free from the trapping of the flawed physical universe, when their traditions and religions never have carried true salvation and liberation?.
HOW ELSE would a Creator God come to gather the people of the earth to him of their own free will and while not breaking that free will for which we were created for??? By setting up this Jesus.. as a way.. as the ONLY WAY that a person may ACKNOWLEDGE to God that they are truly willing to turn their faces toward their creator.

Is not everything else nothing but vanity>? tell me, does this make any sense?
you may go on with your lives pretending that its all good and that nothing that we do matters.. but do those who think that really truly ask themselves the right questions? I hope that they will learn to for their sakes.

Prior to all of this I did have some pretty elaborate ideas about things, and even know I do not discount many of them, yet even though all of the worldly knowledge and enlightenment in the universe will not bring you salvation in eternity unless you are willing to accept God in the way that God has ordained that we accept him; that this the anointed king of the Jews, Jesus.

Does it sound crazy and strange? Of course it does; it has to. If it were easy to accept then there would be no value in it would there?


Numbers 21:8-The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."

John 3:14- Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.












____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#2 May 11 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
Prodigal Son
*****
19,831 posts
I thought you were still here but changed your name to something else?

tl;dr
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#3 May 11 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
******
43,137 posts
I care that I exist. My caring about existence extends two, maybe three people beyond that.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#4 May 11 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#5 May 11 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,021 posts
TL;DR.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I'm biased against statistics

#6 May 11 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Demea wrote:
TL;DR.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.
Europe is a big place, be more specific!
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#7 May 11 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,635 posts
Demea wrote:
TL;DR.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.


I leave for Europe on the 26th. :D
____________________________
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007) wrote:
I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
#8 May 11 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
******
26,676 posts
Nilatai wrote:
Demea wrote:
TL;DR.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.
Europe is a big place, be more specific!
What the Brit said.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#9 May 11 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Belkira wrote:
Demea wrote:
TL;DR.

I leave for Europe tomorrow! Fear my American tourism dollars, you ungrateful sots.


I leave for Europe on the 26th. :D
Nilatai wrote:
Europe is a big place, be more specific!
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#10 May 11 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
28,132 posts
Bloviation is in vain.

Where are you tourists touring?

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#11 May 11 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
******
21,717 posts
Aren't you the one that used to have a picture of Q as your avatar? I didn't read your post (I may later), but if so, welcome back.
____________________________
R.I.P. Jessica M. 5/3/2010
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.
gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#12 May 11 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Muggle@#%^er
Avatar
*****
19,514 posts
Wow, you just regurgitated all of the WORST arguments for the existence of god. No, literally--no philosophers, even the theists, or even religious orders take these arguments seriously because they are full of GAPING HOLES.

Your defense of free will is ludicrous. Your argument for why there must be a single source is logically invalid. Your argument for why there must be a source at all is nonexistent. Your argument for why the source must be conscious is invalid (and has never been taken seriously). You assume a definition of good and evil without bothering to try and substantiate them.

Your post sounds crazy and strange, yes. But not for the reasons you think it does. I know plenty of theistic people who accept the logical problems with their religion and work to overcome them (they put faith in the fact that the arguments are wrong somewhere, but fully accept that they seem to be completely valid).

The fact that you actually blame logic for hiding the truth is the most laughable part.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#13 May 11 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
We've replaced Kelvy's regular instant coffee with pure methamphetamine. Let's see if he notices the difference...
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#14 May 11 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,021 posts
Spending a few days in Prague, then down to Vienna for the symphony and an opera, then over into southern Germany to drink wine and look at castles.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I'm biased against statistics

#15 May 11 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Deb wrote:
I thought you were still here but changed your name to something else?

No way!; just lurking really.

lolgaxe wrote:
I care that I exist. My caring about existence extends two, maybe three people beyond that.

Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)

Nilatai wrote:
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#16 May 11 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
idiggory wrote:
Wow, you just regurgitated all of the WORST arguments for the existence of god. No, literally--no philosophers, even the theists, or even religious orders take these arguments seriously because they are full of GAPING HOLES.


Where are you going to go with this? Ever hear of Socrates? Plato?

Morans

So sure... Prime mover yada yada yada.. Even the classics agreed that there was probably a God.. but they also agreed that all human beings were DAMNED..
Do you seee and understand where this goes?

The GOd of Israel did not appear in a vacuum of circumstance. Our existence is and always has been to fellowship with God... even when all of your little slogan spitting philosphers were digging their holes to nowhere for millennia.

Quote:
Your defense of free will is ludicrous.

What am i defending? What is your stance?

Quote:
Your argument for why there must be a single source is logically invalid. Your argument for why there must be a source at all is nonexistent.


My only real "argument" for why there must be a source is the fact that there is anything. The only people who don't believe ther is a source or String Theory fanboys who suckle off Hawkins' teats like he were the cattle goddess herself.
Quote:

You assume a definition of good and evil without bothering to try and substantiate them.

By what standards? the Perception of Good and Evil are either going to come from a LOCAL or NON LOCAL viewpoint.. doesn't seem that complicated to ME.. especially considering that we are the only things that are have Good and Evil and we didn't create ourselves..
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#17 May 11 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#18 May 11 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.


Just because it knows the choice doesn't mean that it makes the choice for you. Really it also knows every choice that you will ever make in all possible circumstances but it is still you making that choice. It think that then reverts back to the question of omnipotence again.. of which I have already touched on.. most then argue about how we were created either to choose one way or the other.. But however we were created we have the choice nonetheless.

does that make sense?


____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#19 May 11 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
Caffeine Queen
*****
14,446 posts
Sup Kelvy. Glad to see you're still around and not dead =)
____________________________
Uglysasquatch wrote:
DSD kicked Alma in the ass on another thread over the weekend. Clearly, she kicked too hard as he's obviously still feeling it.

Suburban Rebel Mom Blog
#20 May 11 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
DSD wrote:
Sup Kelvy. Glad to see you're still around and not dead =)


hehehe. I'm glad everyone (mostly) is still on here. I know I suck at keeping in touch... always have been..
I did peek in to shake my head at ya'll from time to time.

and yes , I still believe we saw that glass move by itself :D
I also still have that Horror death metal CD floating around somewhere... hehe

Edited, May 11th 2011 8:14pm by Kelvyquayo
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#21 May 11 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.

Ooops, I slipped up there, sorry. I meant to say, omniscience. If your creator is all knowing, this means it already knows everything that is ever going to happen. Which presupposes that everything is preordained from this creator's perspective which renders any free will we might have irrelevant as any choice we are going to make has already been seen to have happened.


Just because it knows the choice doesn't mean that it makes the choice for you. Really it also knows every choice that you will ever make in all possible circumstances but it is still you making that choice. It think that then reverts back to the question of omnipotence again.. of which I have already touched on.. most then argue about how we were created either to choose one way or the other.. But however we were created we have the choice nonetheless.

does that make sense?


Not really, no. Omnipotence causes issues here all by itself. If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen. By refusing to intervene, the being has effectively chosen the course of action.

That aside, assuming your presupposition that this being knows every possible course of action one could possibly take. Then in what sense does free will exist? If all your decisions are known by God before you make them then it's not clear if you are really making any "choices" since all the things that you do are predestined.

This would also be a good time to ask if you think this creator has a plan for you, I think. So, do you think it does?
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#22 May 11 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
Muggle@#%^er
Avatar
*****
19,514 posts
Quote:
Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)
Nilatai wrote:
How did you get around the fact that free will and omnipotence don't stack well together?

Free will exists from omnipotence. That which is omnipotent and has a will may endow that which it has created with a will as well. This is not against the creators sovereignty as our free will only exist as to either turn toward God or to turn toward darkness. Everything else that we consider free will is really a myth as we are ALL at the wills of our fleshly selves.


I'm assuming Nilatai meant omniscience, not omnipotence.

If god is omniscient, he knows what any agent will do before they do it,and he is incapable of being wrong.

A such, in any situation, an agent could not have done otherwise. What I will type in this post would be known to God, despite the fact that I haven't "freely" made the choice to type it yet.

As such, my action isn't truly free. God knows what I will do, which means I have no actual choice in the matter--it's impossible for me to make god wrong.

This is a problem that churches around the world are aware of, and every large denomination has their own theory (none of which I find convincing at all).

The most common attempt to escape the argument is to assert that god is timeless, in the sense that he exists outside of time. The other most common solution is to argue that god doesn't have knowledge of what you will actually do, but rather has knowledge of what you would do in a given situation (and he sets it up so that those situations occur). The latter is the position of the Catholic Church on the matter.

These responses are unimpressive for the same reason. Even if God lacks temporal clairvoyance, he still must maintain logical clairvoyance. He knows, atemporally, how every agent will act in every situation that occurs in the temporal world.

The story is intended to suppose that, being outside time, God can experience everything simultaneously. As such, we "make" our choices and he is aware of them all outside the scope of time.

But frankly, this is still an issue. For one, the fact remains that, for me, God knows what word I will type next, before I have even decided on one. The theists allege that he knows because it is what I choose to do in time, and he exists without. That doesn't change the fact that, logically, he knows exactly what I will do in that given situation (and knew it before time even began).

Why? Because God allegedly has a specific end in mind for the world. He is said to have a purpose for humanity that WILL be reached. Furthermore, he's omniscient. So he logically processed his decisions in order (atemporally) and created the universe that would bring about that end. He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them. That means your choices were set in stone since time began.

Molonists (the Catholic sect that supports this idea) tries to argue that God knows what you'd do because you'd do it, and so you still make the choice. But the fact remains that God knows what you'd do before he even actually creates you, and so you--the you existing in time--have no choice in any matter. The "you" that gets to make a choice is the conception of you in gods mind, long before he ever creates you or your soul.

Sorry, but that's not impressive. And it isn't free will.

This remains one of the biggest problems for organized religions that hold that their deity has some ultimate plan for the universe. It's so problematic that many organized religions don't actually hold that god is omniscient--they claim he has no knowledge of the future. He's just bumbling along as oblivious as the rest of us. It isn't until a future event is certain that he gains knowledge of it.

I see no reason to praise such a god, should he exist. He clearly isn't there to guide me, because he doesn't know how to. He can't guarantee that I won't die in a horrible, drawn-out, painful death in a natural disaster because he has no clue where I will be when one strikes.

FURTHERMORE, remember that, for free will to be valuable, God can't violate it as an omni-benevolent God. So even if he learns that you're headed for disaster, he won't do crap--you are experiencing the effects of your choice, the part that makes it valuable.

Praying to such a god for protection is a joke.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#23 May 11 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Quote:
If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen.


The willingness to turn toward God or away from God is not intervention; if you are getting at it being some retroactive intervention then I would say that is just twisting logic. We were created and given the ability to choose; but we will always choose the flesh when we have a choice.. What God has provided is a simple way to choose to turn toward Him without having to really understand how it works or even why it works.. but I will testify that it does and it will work. It is the one way that we are actually given to choose between the finite flesh or the eternal spirit.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#24 May 11 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
If an omnipotent, omniscient being has perfect knowledge of what will happen without it's intervention, and it's intervention is guaranteed to bring about a different result, then it has absolute control over what will happen.


The willingness to turn toward God or away from God is not intervention; if you are getting at it being some retroactive intervention then I would say that is just twisting logic. We were created and given the ability to choose; but we will always choose the flesh when we have a choice.. What God has provided is a simple way to choose to turn toward Him without having to really understand how it works or even why it works.. but I will testify that it does and it will work. It is the one way that we are actually given to choose between the finite flesh or the eternal spirit.
It's fine, your heaven always sounded kind of crappy to me. All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you. I think I'd rather worship Thor, Valhalla sounds like more fun.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#25 May 11 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Sorry, hit post accidentally

Quote:
If all your decisions are known by God before you make them then it's not clear if you are really making any "choices" since all the things that you do are predestined.

This would also be a good time to ask if you think this creator has a plan for you, I think. So, do you think it does?


God will do and plan whatever God want with you because God already knows what you would do in all possible circumstances that could possibly happen to you.
God can either allow things to happen that are based on your choices.. God knows you better than you know yourself.. keep that in mind at all times.
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#26 May 11 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
Then where do you get off praying to him for special treatment? If it was in his plan he'd have done it any way, if not, too bad!
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#27 May 11 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#28 May 11 2011 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
16,958 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
The people you love have done things for you/with you. There is a tangible reason for showing them your affection and appreciation.
____________________________
MyAnimeList FFXIV Krystal Spoonless
#29 May 11 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
Compulsory love is no love at all. Let alone simultaneously loving someone who you must also fear.

This is all wash, I have known love before and I know it now. This does not mean I grovel at the feet of the one I love. Love entails mutual respect for one another, grovelling demeans this completely and debases the one on his or her knees (hold the jokes about that).
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#30 May 11 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
Then where do you get off praying to him for special treatment? If it was in his plan he'd have done it any way, if not, too bad!


The plan involves having people do it of their own free will.. if He just did it "any way" as you say it would violate are free choice to believe.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#31 May 11 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Yes God indeed has a plan for all of us.
Then where do you get off praying to him for special treatment? If it was in his plan he'd have done it any way, if not, too bad!


The plan involves having people do it of their own free will.. if He just did it "any way" as you say it would violate are free choice to believe.
Haha, if you say so, sure.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#32 May 11 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
All that prostrating and grovelling to a god who has just done his job by creating you.


It's all on how you see it. If you are in Love with someone do you not do the same thing? Then do you call it prostrating and grovelling? It is signs of affection and appreciation..

Those who have really known Love will know what I mean
The people you love have done things for you/with you. There is a tangible reason for showing them your affection and appreciation.


Being created into existence and being given the opportunity to exist in an eternal perfected universe is a pretty tangible reason to be grateful.

Nilitai wrote:
This does not mean I grovel at the feet of the one I love. Love entails mutual respect for one another, grovelling demeans this completely and debases the one on his or her knees (hold the jokes about that).


It's perspective, isn't it? If I was not in love with a girl and I saw you on your knees proposing to her or professing your undying love for her whispering all those sweet nothing and giggling with someone I would probably scoff and jeer too!
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#33 May 11 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Being created into existence and being given the opportunity to exist in an eternal perfected universe is a pretty tangible reason to be grateful.
Um, "perfected universe"? Seriously?


Kelvyquayo wrote:
It's perspective, isn't it? If I was not in love with a girl and I saw you on your knees proposing to her or professing your undying love for her whispering all those sweet nothing and giggling with someone I would probably scoff and jeer too!
Does your god do this to you in return?
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#34 May 11 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,635 posts
Soooo, I'm just headed back to Dublin. No big doins like Demea.
____________________________
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007) wrote:
I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
#35 May 11 2011 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
Avatar
*****
19,514 posts
Lol, I notice he hasn't responded to me at all. :P

Quote:
God will do and plan whatever God want with you because God already knows what you would do in all possible circumstances that could possibly happen to you.


So he knows what you'll do, and he puts you in a situation to do it. And you call that a free choice?

Sad world. I'd prefer no free choice to a crappy kind of freedom like that. You aren't living your life the way you want to, your living the life god picked for you, acting EXACTLY as he wanted to.

You see the problem? All those atheists that are going to hell? God CHOSE the situation to put them in, and that situation is the one who rejects him. According to your argument, people who are evil, or violent, etc, are only such because it's the path God chose for them. They could have been world leaders had he chosen differently.

So that woman who tries for 12 years to get pregnant, finally does, and then has a miscarriage that utterly destroys her faith? These were all the choices god made for her.

That kind of god is an @#%^.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#36 May 11 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
You seem to show a dramatically keen understanding of some of the key pivots of trying to understand God. I don't quite get your reasoning though on why you appear to utterly reject the idea of a sentient creator.

Quote:
He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them.


Is this logically sound?

Quote:
Sorry, but that's not impressive. And it isn't free will.


I used to be very vexed on this. Now it seems that in order to truly define something as Free Will there must be a choice between right and wrong.. One cannot simply start applying feeble concepts like which pant leg you put your foot into first in the morning... it's kinda of a strawman if you think about it.

Quote:

I see no reason to praise such a god, should he exist. He clearly isn't there to guide me, because he doesn't know how to.


So you are declaring that you don't accept God because of what a few denominations of churches have to say about God?
That's kind of weak really and I don't actually believe that this is your true reasoning.

God does know-all but he does not cause you to choose to turn to the cross or not.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#37 May 11 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Quote:
Um, "perfected universe"? Seriously?


Right now the physical universe that we live in is not the same as the "universe" that the Source is in.

We as free beings therefore are finite compared to the Source.

The Source has given us finite beings a way to be in the "Perfected" universe that the source (God) will provide. We cannot exist there unless our fleshly ways of beings (sins) are forgiven by God through the mere fact that we chose to believe that Jesus is real and resurrected.. et cetera.

Quote:
Does your god do this to you in return?


Yes; once you establish a personal relationship with the creator of the universe it becomes quite elating..
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#38 May 11 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Right now the physical universe that we live in is not the same as the "universe" that the Source is in.

We as free beings therefore are finite compared to the Source.

The Source has given us finite beings a way to be in the "Perfected" universe that the source (God) will provide. We cannot exist there unless our fleshly ways of beings (sins) are forgiven by God through the mere fact that we chose to believe that Jesus is real and resurrected.. et cetera.
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Quote:
Yes; once you establish a personal relationship with the creator of the universe it becomes quite elating..
Oh good. So all I have to do is force myself to believe something that I can't possibly believe. Or better yet, how about if I go down some kind of Pascal's wager route and just fake it. Will that work?
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#39 May 11 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Quote:
That kind of god is an @#%^.


This earth is only bit of Hell that saved people will ever experience and the only bit of heaven that damned people will experience.

Like it or not it is the way it is. All of your arguments against that Truth are fruitless.
The life in the flesh is finite and fleeting.. the life in the spirit is ETERNAL. God has provided all with a way Out.
If you disagree with it it is your own skewed way of looking at it.. from fleshcolourd glasess.. To try Jesus the Anointed is the only chance to NOT be Judged for our Flesh Choices.

YOu ask WHY we have a Choice in the first place?? Well the alternative is to have no free will and as such we are just like trees and rocks.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#40 May 11 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
Nilatai
Drunken English Bastard wrote:
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


I can't tell you that; what I do know is that they will get what they deserved because God is the utter standard of fairness and righteousness. Sounds zealous, no? lol but it's Truth. I have plenty of ideas of what happened with that but none of which are relevant. Some say they were waiting in Hades, others have other ideas.. like I said; if God is God then God is fair and we know they would have gotten fair treatment. God did carve right and wrong into our hearts anyway..

Quote:
h good. So all I have to do is force myself to believe something that I can't possibly believe. Or better yet, how about if I go down some kind of Pascal's wager route and just fake it. Will that work?


God has etched some form of faith/belief capacity in all of us... if you had no ability for faith then you wouldn't walk out your front door in the morning for fear of any of the horrible things that could happen to you.. but you do anyway.

Once someone actually cries out to God (however that may be) God will work in your life to aid you in your walk. The Lord is the Shepherd.
you know the drill. If humbling your self and asking that which likely created you to enable you to believe and receive that Holy Spirit of the Anointed is considered a "wager" well that is a wager worth taking.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#41 May 11 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
Avatar
*****
19,514 posts
Quote:
Quote:
He chose which actions you would take, because he knew you'd take them.

Is this logically sound?


YOU were the one who said that's how he operated.

Quote:
You seem to show a dramatically keen understanding of some of the key pivots of trying to understand God. I don't quite get your reasoning though on why you appear to utterly reject the idea of a sentient creator.


I reject the idea because it's ridiculous. The only way to rectify the existence of god with the world is to discard logic completely. And that's ludicrous.

We live in a world where there is massive amounts of suffering every day. Children starve to death, pedestrians get hit by cars, natural disasters kill 20,000 people in hours, etc. And this is REGULAR. Evil isn't a once in a while kind of thing, it happens everywhere, all the time. Even if you want to pretend like free will of a few men is better than the suffering of millions of innocent people, you can't account for natural evil.

If a God existed, he'd either be powerless to stop this evil, unaware of what the hell was going on, or not give a sh*t.

Even if you want to drone on about God creating a brighter tomorrow, the fact is that he still doesn't care about you today. It doesn't matter how much you suffer if it means some greater good will occur in the future. Your a means to an end and you don't matter--you would be nothing more than a part in god's toy universe.

Furthermore, the idea of free will alone is ridiculous (and so you can't explain away moral evil, like genocides). The universe is a place of matter and energy, and everything functions according to physical laws. Humans are no different. When we take action, it's because our brain ordered our bodies to through physical processes. The brain itself is a physical entity, designed by millions of years of evolution. "Acting" is just the organic step in a long chain of physical reactions dictated by physical laws. I am writing this post right now because of the specific organization of particles that formed following the Big Bang, which were directed by physical laws to create the world and, eventually, me.

Humans act in every situation according to their beliefs. Beliefs are largely not "chosen" in any sense. Your parents raise you a specific way, in a specific society. Various events happen as you age. Etc. All of these external factors make you who you are. You believe in God because physical processes led you to believe in him, and you have turned to evangelism because of that belief. You didn't do it freely--you did it because the universe is the way it is.

All of our actions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli. That's it. There is no meaning to life, there is no God waiting to welcome you home after you die (and, if there is, he's either a prick, a wimp, or an idiot). And there is no free will.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#42 May 11 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,826 posts
Sell out.

So do you still live over the bar?
____________________________
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.

"England needs, examples of people who, leaving Heaven to decide whether they are to rise in the world, decide for themselves that they will be happy in it, and have resolved to seek, not greater wealth, but simpler pleasures; not higher fortune, but deeper felicity; making the first of possessions self-possession, and honouring themselves in the harmless pride and calm pursuits of peace." - John Ruskin
#43 May 11 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
*****
15,935 posts
ElneClare wrote:
Sell out.

So do you still live over the bar?


Hey, If it's worth anything to ya I still believe in faeries and dragons! and no I DON'T think they are all evil.

I finally moved from there; but it do work downtown a LOT now!
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#44 May 11 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
Avatar
*****
19,514 posts
Quote:
Hey, If it's worth anything to ya I still believe in faeries and dragons! and no I DON'T think they are all evil.


...

Please let that not be true.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#45 May 11 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
I can't tell you that; what I do know is that they will get what they deserved because God is the utter standard of fairness and righteousness. Sounds zealous, no? lol but it's Truth. I have plenty of ideas of what happened with that but none of which are relevant. Some say they were waiting in Hades, others have other ideas.. like I said; if God is God then God is fair and we know they would have gotten fair treatment. God did carve right and wrong into our hearts anyway..
Okay good, so if god is fair then if I live a good life I'll be rewarded. If I stay true to my convictions and despite not believing in him, do my best to minimise the suffering of others and help people to live better lives, I'll be fine. Because, y'know, punishing a good person for simply not believing wouldn't be just now, would it?



Kelvyquayo wrote:
God has etched some form of faith/belief capacity in all of us... if you had no ability for faith then you wouldn't walk out your front door in the morning for fear of any of the horrible things that could happen to you.. but you do anyway.
What?

Kelvyquayo wrote:
Once someone actually cries out to God (however that may be) God will work in your life to aid you in your walk. The Lord is the Shepherd.
you know the drill. If humbling your self and asking that which likely created you to enable you to believe and receive that Holy Spirit of the Anointed is considered a "wager" well that is a wager worth taking.
I used to believe in god. I used to be a rather devout Catholic, actually. I'm sure with you being a Protestant of some description you'll say I was evil and sinful because I was a Catholic, and I'll probably agree with you. Many of the Catholic dogmas are quite evil when you look at them. However, I found other avenues to be more, rewarding, shall we say. Now this isn't to say I'm not open to the possibility of some kind of higher power, I just find it to be incredibly unlikely that it is Yahweh.

Oh and believing that the whole Universe was created with you in mind isn't being humble. Just saying.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#46 May 11 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
3,203 posts
Good luck!

Rambling hash of Cartesian philosophy,among others, but I do like him.


Humans have always asked, Why am I here? Why do bad things happen? How can we make things better?

They have most commonly come up with the idea of a Creative, Redemptive, and Enabling spirit(s). If you have not yet done so, read some of Matthew Fox and his work on Creation centered spirituality.

____________________________
For Truth, Justice, and the Norrathian Way!
Tinkering is a trade skill which will not prevent the mobs from hitting you.
#47 May 11 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Gurue
*****
16,277 posts
I never knew Kelvy was Charlie Sheen. Makes sense now.

winning
#48 May 11 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
Supreme Lionator
*****
14,158 posts
An omnipotent being can do anything, which includes the illogical. If you suppose a being with this quality it is foolish to argue that it cannot do something simply because it is a paradox. This foolishness is stacked upon the foolishness of supposing such a quality in the first place, so that all you need is a square block to complete two rows. With a flourish you guide just such a block home, gaining a staggering 834 points and failing seventh grade forever.

In a stupour you wander about town, drinking from a bottle of white spirit stashed inside a brown paper bag. 'What is logic, anyway?' you think. It seems to you, as you awkwardly adjust your trousers, that it's a pretty big assumption to take reality as logical. Perhaps your conception of logic is flawed - just as there is no way to tell your senses are flawed, there is no way to tell your reasoning isn't, too.

You don't notice the doors you open or the stairs you climb, and it's almost a surprise to find yourself in Kelvyquayo's flat, right arm thrusting, pneumatically stabbing his writhing torso with a rusty knife. Where did you even get that? When did you even get here?

It's the final straw. As your victim's life fades, you succumb to aporia. Armed with absolute skepticism and half a bottle of overproof paint thinnerk, you stagger into the world a new man.

The possibilities are limitless.

Edited, May 12th 2011 1:48am by Kavekk
____________________________
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”
#49 May 11 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
***
2,155 posts
Nilatai wrote:
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Going on memory here, but I'm pretty sure yes, they're pretty much said to be forsaken. The world before Jesus' sacrifice was a world in which all men were unforgiven for their sin. Maybe there was some tiny caveat, but I don't think so. Essentially, the entire period in between Eve eating the forbidden fruit and Jesus' sacrifice is one big field day for Hell's population.

Then again, going by both historical record and probably by biblical record as well, there weren't really that many people on Earth in those times. Not an insignificant amount, mind you, but nothing evem compared to the population of the 1950's (~2B, I think).
#50 May 11 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
******
43,137 posts
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Is it not wise to consider the will of that which caused you to exist ?(not causality)
Answering that question would require me to first acknowledge your existence is equal to mine, and not just a simple instrument to increase my post count.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#51 May 11 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,262 posts
ChanchanXI wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
What about all the human beings who existed perhaps even hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus was crucified? They couldn't have possibly believed in him. Are they all screwed?


Going on memory here, but I'm pretty sure yes, they're pretty much said to be forsaken. The world before Jesus' sacrifice was a world in which all men were unforgiven for their sin. Maybe there was some tiny caveat, but I don't think so. Essentially, the entire period in between Eve eating the forbidden fruit and Jesus' sacrifice is one big field day for Hell's population.

Then again, going by both historical record and probably by biblical record as well, there weren't really that many people on Earth in those times. Not an insignificant amount, mind you, but nothing evem compared to the population of the 1950's (~2B, I think).
Sucks to be Moses then I guess. Oh and, y'know, Noah. I guess the only one that got off scott free was Enoch, not having actually died and all.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 32 All times are in CDT