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#77 May 10 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Bardalicious wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm operating on an assumption
You should really preface every argument you have with this, Mr. Expert.


Sure. But my assumption is far more correct than the one I was responding to, isn't it?
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#78 May 10 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Don't get too caught up on the details.

"Not intended to be a factual statement."

Maybe you should get caught up on details when you write your crap and then perhaps you wouldn't make so many completely stupid "mistakes".
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#79 May 10 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Maybe you should get caught up on details when you write your crap and then perhaps you wouldn't make so many completely stupid "mistakes".

That level of attention to detail would decrease the amount of content on the internet by an order of magnitude, if not more.
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#80 May 10 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And you'd presumably trust folks in that rank range more than a random cocktail waitress, right?
Not really, no.
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#81 May 10 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelesh wrote:

That so? Double the median eh? In Iowa (9th in the nation in education), which is where both Guenny and I reside, the starting salary is $27,284.00 which isn't enough to cover a 1 bedroom apartment and their student loans. After ten years, it's $41,083. The average median income from 2008 in this county? $52,029 A far @#%^ing cry from double the salary you claim.

Senior Engineer: $73,741

Brigadier General: $97,476

The median salary of waitresses in 2009? $20,380, without tips. So roughly around 25-27.



Thank you. And did the waitress have to invest 80k+ of their own money (not including the interest on those loans, either) to get that job? No.
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#82 May 10 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Don't get too caught up on the details.

"Not intended to be a factual statement."

Maybe you should get caught up on details when you write your crap and then perhaps you wouldn't make so many completely stupid "mistakes".


The level of detail you're demanding doesn't change the validity of my argument at all though. Teacher pay is more in line with what we associate with skilled professionals regularly placed in a position of trust than with that of a cocktail waitress. Right?
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#83 May 10 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Kaelesh wrote:

That so? Double the median eh? In Iowa (9th in the nation in education), which is where both Guenny and I reside, the starting salary is $27,284.00 which isn't enough to cover a 1 bedroom apartment and their student loans. After ten years, it's $41,083. The average median income from 2008 in this county? $52,029 A far @#%^ing cry from double the salary you claim.

Senior Engineer: $73,741

Brigadier General: $97,476

The median salary of waitresses in 2009? $20,380, without tips. So roughly around 25-27.



Thank you. And did the waitress have to invest 80k+ of their own money (not including the interest on those loans, either) to get that job? No.


So the teacher has more in common with an engineer, business manager, or military officer than with a waitress? Congratulations! You've arrived at the point.
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#84 May 10 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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It was intended to be at the top end of what I was talking about. Kinda depends on how much "slightly less" is. I'm operating on an assumption of median pay for teachers that's more in the 65-70k range (which I actually believe is more accurate than the 45-50k "estimated salary" median figure quoted). It's not too much of a stretch to say that $70k is "slightly less" than $80k, is it?

The more relevant point is that teachers make far far more on average than cocktail waitresses.


Okay, let's start with the fact that your argument sucks by default. If you use a median figure that's vastly above the actual median figure, you've already destabilized the entire following argument that's based on it. Yeah, you might have managed to have a point in a possible world where the median teacher earned 70k a year. Unfortunately, in the actual world, you were 20k too high. According to the bureau of labor, the median teacher salaries in the US range from 43-51k. And that means half of teachers make less than that.

Here's a good note for the future. If you want to do yourself a favor when making an argument, formulate any assumptions so that they work to your disadvantage. That way, if they prove too extreme, it only works in your favor. Of course, if it just proves flat out wrong (as many of yours often are), your argument will crumble anyway.

And you still haven't proven that teachers make more than cocktail waitresses. You've proven that at least half of teachers do. Those are different things. And if we are considering starting wages, you need to consider the lower boundaries of wages.

That said, I agree they don't make the wages of cocktail waitresses. That was the POINT of the original statement made--that teachers shouldn't be making that wage, so it is good that they aren't.

Quote:
When you add in the benefits and pension? Yes, they are. I don't think you comprehend just how ridiculously good those pensions are. To put this in perspective, I put 20% of my income into investments. I've also been very very lucky and they've done very well (up until recently, but that'll correct). When I retire I will still be lucky to match the retirement income that a public school teacher will make just for having worked there. Pensions for teachers with 20+ years in are pegged at 98% of the income they were making when they retired (and they actually go up from there IIRC). This is based on STIRs here in California. Other states may vary of course.

The point is that a teacher doesn't have to put nearly as much into their retirement as other professions do to earn what amounts to a gold plated retirement. And they also don't pay nearly as much for their benefits compared to other professions. It's pretty unfair to even start a discussion about teacher pay without including those factors.


The point you just made says NOTHING about how much they have to put into pensions.

And no, teachers aren't poor. But they make a solid lower-mid middle class wage. And that seems appropriate to me--why would anyone with a good brain decide to become a teacher if it guaranteed they'd be lower class?
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#85 May 10 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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So the teacher has more in common with an engineer, business manager, or military officer than with a waitress? Congratulations! You've arrived at the point.


That's possibly the worst argument/point I've seen in months.

[EDIT]

Quote:
Sure. But my assumption is far more correct than the one I was responding to, isn't it?


And again, the comment was "Who would want to leave their kids with someone who makes less than a cocktail waitress." It was a hypothetical wondering why people always want to lower teacher wages down to lower-class levels. IT WASN'T MAKING THE CLAIM THAT THEY ARE LOWER CLASS LEVELS.

Edited, May 10th 2011 4:34pm by idiggory
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#86 May 10 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
So the teacher has more in common with an engineer, business manager, or military officer than with a waitress? Congratulations! You've arrived at the point.


That's possibly the worst argument/point I've seen in months.
Only if you're arguing against raising teachers wages. Its a good starting point as to why they should be higher though.
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#87 May 10 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Teacher pay is more in line with what we associate with skilled professionals regularly placed in a position of trust than with that of a cocktail waitress. Right?

Teacher pay is a little below the national median. I already noted earlier that comparing it to ~$25k jobs wasn't an accurate starting point. That said, your claims that they make twice the national median were equally absurd. The jobs you inaccurately cited as comparable to teacher salaries were just icing on the silly-cake.

If your point was that you could make as poor a comparison as "cocktail waitress", mission accomplished.
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#88 May 10 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory wrote:
Okay, let's start with the fact that your argument sucks by default. If you use a median figure that's vastly above the actual median figure, you've already destabilized the entire following argument that's based on it. Yeah, you might have managed to have a point in a possible world where the median teacher earned 70k a year. Unfortunately, in the actual world, you were 20k too high. According to the bureau of labor, the median teacher salaries in the US range from 43-51k. And that means half of teachers make less than that.


I already addressed that statistic and showed why that's misleading. Even the source you cited contains the same information I provided:

Quote:
Teachers can boost their earnings in a number of ways. In some schools, teachers receive extra pay for coaching sports and working with students in extracurricular activities. Getting a master's degree or national certification often results in a raise in pay, as does acting as a mentor. Some teachers earn extra income during the summer by teaching summer school or performing other jobs in the school system.


The point I made earlier, but which you've chosen to ignore is that the median salary figure of 43-51k you're quoting is "base expected salary". What that means is that they are calculating based on what the pay scale ladders indicate is the median and not what they are actually paid. If that was what they were actually paid over the year, there would be no need to mention that their pay can be increased if they get a higher degree or teach summer school, or do extracurricular activities. Those things are in addition to the base pay calculation used to establish the median pay scale.

Get it? That median is based on what a teacher with a bachelors degree working the standard 4-units-out-of-6 schedule, with no extracurricular work or summer work. But most teachers go on to get a masters, and most teacher work at least one extra unit, and most teachers involve themselves in at least one extracurricular activity. So the base median calculation is not an accurate assessment of what teachers are actually paid. A friend of mine this year will be working 6 units (which is an admittedly hellish schedule), advises the robotics team, teaches an adult class in the summer and does the district ROP catalog, and he's got a masters degree. He makes far far more than 51k. He makes more than 70k. He makes somewhere just over 100k. As a public high school teacher.

And while this year is a bit more work than usual, he normally just has one fewer units on his schedule. So he's usually making something in the 90k range. His sister works at a middle school, and makes somewhere in the 80k range. His mother and father are both retired teachers. His father in law is a district manager and lives in a million dollar home. Both my sisters in law are teachers (grade and middle school). I've spoken to all of them. Every single one will say that the claims that public teachers are underpaid are inflated. Sure. They like getting the pay, and the benefits, and to be fair the hours can be tough. But none of them think they are actually underpaid.


Talk to teachers and the big things they really are ****** off at (when they're not supporting their unions by holding signs saying they're underpaid) is the bureaucracy which doesn't allow them to teach freely, parents who don't involve themselves in their kids education and push it all on them, and a school system that often backs up the parents instead of the teachers. None of them are that upset about pay. It's just that pay is what makes the unions work, so pay is what they march over. The other stuff can't be fixed by marching in a rally, so the public doesn't see them as often.

Quote:
Here's a good note for the future. If you want to do yourself a favor when making an argument, formulate any assumptions so that they work to your disadvantage. That way, if they prove too extreme, it only works in your favor. Of course, if it just proves flat out wrong (as many of yours often are), your argument will crumble anyway.


I'm basing my assumption on how I know teacher pay actually works. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Quote:
And you still haven't proven that teachers make more than cocktail waitresses.


Of course I have. Your own source says that teacher pay starts at $33,227. I don't think it's a stretch to say that very very few cocktail waitresses make that much. You can't be serious about this. Teachers *do* make pay in the range I mentioned. They *don't* make pay equivalent to that which cocktail waitresses make.

Quote:
You've proven that at least half of teachers do. Those are different things. And if we are considering starting wages, you need to consider the lower boundaries of wages.


And you should actually read the sources you cite before making a fool out of yourself. While I'm sure some very highly paid waitresses might make the kind of pay the entry level teacher makes, is that really the argument you want to support here?

Quote:
That said, I agree they don't make the wages of cocktail waitresses. That was the POINT of the original statement made--that teachers shouldn't be making that wage, so it is good that they aren't.


Sure. So no problem, right? Except that my point is that teacher make wages similar to that made by other people in similarly demanding professions. So why do we constantly hear that teachers are underpaid?

Quote:
The point you just made says NOTHING about how much they have to put into pensions.


They don't put 20% of their earnings in. I don't happen to know the exact figure, but I think it's more like 5%.

Quote:
And no, teachers aren't poor. But they make a solid lower-mid middle class wage. And that seems appropriate to me--why would anyone with a good brain decide to become a teacher if it guaranteed they'd be lower class?


They make solid middle class wages if they don't expend anything more than the minimum effort. If they put in the kinds of hours most professionals in the middle class make, they earn more. It really isn't hard at all for a teacher to earn 70-80k. Once they've been in the field for 8-10 years, and take on any extra work, their pay will be in that range. There aren't a whole lot of professions where you're pretty much guaranteed to be earning that much pay that quickly after graduating from college. And that's the next point. It's guaranteed. Work X years, you get Y base pay. The only variables are how much extra work you can pull in.




I'll do you a favor though (and since you asked for assumptions which weaken my argument). So here's a bone for you: The better argument against teacher pensions isn't how much they pay into them, or how much they earn. You lose on that one. The winning argument is that the average lifespan for a teacher after retirement is something like 7 years. Teachers have a habit of working until they can't work anymore, then tend to die shortly after that. So while the pension is great, they don't get to take advantage of it for that long. Their spouses, on the other hand...
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#89 May 10 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
A friend of mine this year will be working 6 units (which is an admittedly hellish schedule), advises the robotics team, teaches an adult class in the summer and does the district ROP catalog, and he's got a masters degree. He makes far far more than 51k. He makes more than 70k. He makes somewhere just over 100k. As a public high school teacher.

So he's effectively working 1.5 jobs and making more money? Wow! Hey, I heard that if I work 1.5 jobs, I'll make more money than if I work one job, too!

The $100k figure is meaningless since we're talking national averages. Presumably the San Diego school district pays more than that of Pimpledip, Ohio.
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#90 May 10 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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If that cocktail waitress works more, they makes more money too.
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#91 May 10 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
The jobs you inaccurately cited as comparable to teacher salaries were just icing on the silly-cake.


Really? According to the BLS site the bottom 10% of teachers earned 30-34k and the top earned 75-80k. The same site lists the bottom 10% of engineers earning 43-59k, with the top (excluding a couple outliers) earning 110-130k. Again though, that's using base pay calculations for teachers, which is not a completely accurate account of their actual earnings.

It's certainly within a pretty similar range. We could compare to other professional careers if you'd like, but I think we'll find that teachers stack up pretty darn well.
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#92 May 10 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Really? According to the BLS site the bottom 10% of teachers earned 30-34k and the top earned 75-80k. The same site lists the bottom 10% of engineers earning 43-59k

So we're assuming that "senior engineers" are the bottom 10% of wage earners under the "engineers" heading?

Huh. Interesting.
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#93 May 10 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
A friend of mine this year will be working 6 units (which is an admittedly hellish schedule), advises the robotics team, teaches an adult class in the summer and does the district ROP catalog, and he's got a masters degree. He makes far far more than 51k. He makes more than 70k. He makes somewhere just over 100k. As a public high school teacher.

So he's effectively working 1.5 jobs and making more money? Wow! Hey, I heard that if I work 1.5 jobs, I'll make more money than if I work one job, too!


Except that the engineer's pay assumes he's working full time all year round. There's no time for a second job (even half a second job). As I've illustrated in several threads in the past, the base pay for teachers essentially assumes they're working about half the amount of time a normal full time salaried worker would work. They have time to teach a summer course, and to take on an extra unit or two during the normal school year, and to do an extracurricular activity. And most teachers do at least some of that all the time.

Quote:
The $100k figure is meaningless since we're talking national averages. Presumably the San Diego school district pays more than that of Pimpledip, Ohio.


And the cost of living in Pimpledip is probably significantly lower as well. What's your point? I'm comparing my salary as a staff engineer to a public high school teacher, both working and living in the same county. And guess what? He makes about the same amount as I do, even though my "base pay" is about 30% higher than his. And he doesn't have to pay 20% off that base pay in order to ensure a secure retirement.
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#94 May 10 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Really? According to the BLS site the bottom 10% of teachers earned 30-34k and the top earned 75-80k. The same site lists the bottom 10% of engineers earning 43-59k

So we're assuming that "senior engineers" are the bottom 10% of wage earners under the "engineers" heading?


Are we assuming that the median teacher pay is equal to that made by the lowest 10%?

Quote:
Huh. Interesting.


No. Not really.
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#95 May 10 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I was stretching to make a point.
Hey, weren't you the one crying about liberals exaggerating teacher salaries?
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#96 May 10 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Except that the engineer's pay assumes he's working full time all year round. There's no time for a second job (even half a second job). As I've illustrated in several threads in the past, the base pay for teachers essentially assumes they're working about half the amount of time a normal full time salaried worker would work. They have time to teach a summer course, and to take on an extra unit or two during the normal school year, and to do an extracurricular activity. And most teachers do at least some of that all the time.


About half a normal salaried worker? You REALLY live in your own ******* world, don't you?

Teachers will be at work at least 7 hours a day for about 44 weeks a year. Fine. That's not even remotely "half," but it is less time spent at work. Assume a difference of 8 weeks, factoring in the vacation time of a normal salaried job. That's 1540 hours a year for a teacher and 2080 a year for an engineer. This assumes the teacher isn't picking up any extra duties at the school (and will, as a result, be making less money).

But the engineer isn't expected to do any of his work at home. Or, at least, he is expected to complete all of his tasks during the work day--it's his fault if he doesn't (and he has legal recourse if they are expecting him to work from home without pay).

The teacher, on the other hand, is expected to work outside school. Quite a bit actually. The average class is probably 30+ students now, and most teachers in the most traditional school types (7 or 8 class blocks) have a prep period, lunch or hall duty, and 6 class periods. That's 180 students a day. If the teacher assigns homework every day, and actually checks it for content, they are looking at a good hour of additional work every school day, at least (and it depends on how demanding the homework is).

They're also, realistically, going to need to be available after school at least 1 day a week (and will not be paid for it) in order to aid student performance.

They are also expected to have 2 or 3 lessons planned for every school day, and those take a while to structure. They need to prepare their visual materials, organize lectures, and design student activities. That's probably at least another hour a day.

So, really, we are looking at 9 hour work days (at least) for a teacher who doesn't do extra curriculars, for 44 weeks a year. That's 1980. And I'd be willing to bet the additional, less regular work (like reading/grading papers, tests, projects, etc. on top of the additional need to stay after school to help students or proctor make up exams) easily matches (or out-paces) a normal 9-5 job's work day.

Yes, they have the option of working a seasonal job on top of that. But there's absolutely nothing stopping an engineer from having a part-time job as well. The fact that one works 10 months out of the year is an irrelevant fact when you consider the fact they are actually expected to work 9-10 hour shifts every day (even if only 7 of those hours is on the clock).
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#97 May 10 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And the cost of living in Pimpledip is probably significantly lower as well. What's your point?

That your friend's 100k is in no way indicative of a national average or of anything at all besides what your friend supposedly makes. I thought that was obvious.

gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
So we're assuming that "senior engineers" are the bottom 10% of wage earners under the "engineers" heading?

Are we assuming that the median teacher pay is equal to that made by the lowest 10%?

Given that median teacher pay is ~50k, it would seem so, huh?

Quote:
No. Not really.

True. You getting basic facts wrong and making up additional shit to cover for your errors isn't exactly anything new. I'll give you that.
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#98 May 10 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
So we're assuming that "senior engineers" are the bottom 10% of wage earners under the "engineers" heading?
Are we assuming that the median teacher pay is equal to that made by the lowest 10%?
Given that median teacher pay is ~50k, it would seem so, huh?
Apparently, math is hard for those who dislike teachers. I'm shocked.
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#99gbaji, Posted: May 10 2011 at 5:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's hugely relevant because they can fit another course in the consecutive time they are not working their normal hours. And that extra job pays them 12.5% of their base salary. You can't be serious about that claim.
#100gbaji, Posted: May 10 2011 at 5:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Er? Equal to the lowest 10% earned by teachers Joph. The bottom 10% earn 30-34k. Which is not the same as the median. Try to follow the comparison. Senior engineers are not in the bottom 10% of engineers, and the median pay for teachers is not in the bottom 10% of pay for teachers. I'm comparing apples to apples. You're not. Get it?
#101 May 10 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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The upshot is that the true median salary for teachers doesn't fit Gbaji's narrative and so he has to create subjective measures by which teachers really are making a lot more. This relies on a whole lot of anecdotal "evidence" about this guy who only works X hours or this other guy who works X hours +Y unpaid hours or whatever. It's ultimately subject to whatever bias you're trying to add to it dependent on your stance.

The fact of the matter is that, if you're working as a teacher, your base median salary is in the neighborhood of $50k, a few thousand under the national average. It is not the same as that of a "senior engineer" or "brigadier general" or "starship captain" or whatever else. It's is also higher than that of "cocktail waitress" or "fry cook" or "hobo". What it absolutely is not is double that of the national average.
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