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#1 May 07 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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This what happens when you let liberalism take over completely.


Detroit
#2 May 07 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's the problem with liberalism all right. Clearly, pulling funding from under-performing schools is the way to go. That's sure to give the kids the opportunities they need to learn.
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#3ThiefX, Posted: May 07 2011 at 8:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ah yes the classic idiotic liberal response.
#4 May 07 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Education rankings.

Much like the thread, no particular reason or correlation.
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#5 May 07 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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What we need to do is throw more of other people's money at the problem. That will fix it.


Well, with no funding, how exactly would you fix it?

It's hardly a problem caused by any one political party, because really, both sides seem to have a bad track record with education.
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#6 May 07 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Education rankings.

Much like the thread, no particular reason or correlation.


BUT THE SMARTER STATES ARE IN BLUE.
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#7 May 07 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, with no funding, how exactly would you fix it?


I would really like to hear a response to this question.

Education's pretty much always been something I'm 100% willing to invest in. And it's not because I'm a liberal--it's because it just seems to be something so obviously good for the nation regardless of what your political leanings are. I don't even need to consider the rights of an individual to believe that we should be funding schools.

[edit]
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BUT THE SMARTER STATES ARE IN BLUE.


Real lol.

Edited, May 7th 2011 10:44pm by idiggory
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#8ThiefX, Posted: May 07 2011 at 8:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) A whole lot of money.
#9 May 07 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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#10 May 07 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some of the comments are pretty insightful - for example, Detroit has a high Somali immigrant population these days. How many of the functionally illiterate in Detroit are ESL speakers? How many actually were able to attend high school? Remember, all the smart people left Detroit after the fall of Motor City - the only ones left behind were the ones who were, unfortunately, too poor or too uneducated to find opportunities elsewhere. Of course there is going to be a high concentration of illiterate people under those conditions.

'Throwing more money at them' won't solve anything - however, providing adequate funding to attract talented teachers who actually care about their students might actually do something.
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#11 May 07 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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'Throwing more money at them' won't solve anything - however, providing adequate funding to attract talented teachers who actually care about their students might actually do something.


That's kinda the point of throwing more money at them, because the vast majority of inner-city schools don't have anything remotely close to adequate funding.

And a school needs more than just talented teachers when we are talking about these kind of environments. It needs social programs to help students cope with their home situations and the money to spend on fostering an education-centric culture amongst the student-body.

That's the real problem behind performance-based funding reductions. The first things to go have to be these programs (because the school can't even exist without teachers). But without the programs, the school has absolutely no hope of boosting its scores. So it just enters a downward spiral where performance is concerned.

Plus, you'd be surprised how many teachers willingly work in these schools (despite lower pay) because they feel like their work makes the biggest difference there. Many of them are quite talented. The problem is that who you have at the front of the classroom is actually one of the most minor factors.

[EDIT]

I'll add an example. My brother works in a charter school near Atlantic City, which is filled with students from rough, low-income neighborhoods. Many of them were actually expelled from public schools for behavioral problems. And I don't even mean violence, I mean the kind of thing that the public schools just don't have the resources to address.

For instance, some of these kids would just consistently disturb classes. In a middle-upper income district, they'd end up spending time in detention or with a counselor. Not so much in these schools. They get a few chances and then they are out. Why? Because the schools need to pay teachers to proctor detention, and they don't have enough money to hire the number of counselors they need. Kinda hard to pencil in time for the class clowns when 10% of the student body is getting abused at home.

Charter schools operate at 90% funding, which means the teachers only get 90% pay. But my brother's school largely has quality faculty, despite that, because they feel like they are doing something real there--like they have the chance to truly help change a students' life. Of course, the skillset needed for this type of school is vastly different than others, but they all know their subjects, know how to teach, and know how to control a classroom. Problem is that, despite a solid staff, the test scores aren't good enough to get them more funding. And the school has nothing in terms of extracurriculars.

My brother even started an intramural basketball club. The catch is that he doesn't get paid for it, like he would in a normal school. He does it just because he's trying to foster in these kids a sense of self-worth and an attachment to the school.

That would normally be the project of the administration, and invested in. The problem is that they have started with a group of kids guaranteed to under-perform. So despite their best efforts, their funding gets slashed. And without funding (and with all their time and resources tied up in disciplinary problems) it just won't happen.

But until these kids form a desire to learn, they won't. And they won't come to desire that unless given a real reason to.

If his school had the money to spend on hiring some more counselors and cultivating a school identity, the students would probably do far better. But they won't get that funding until the students DO do better. But the students won't do better until those programs are available.

I recognize you might be fully aware of this. I just thought it was important to note that the best teachers in the world can't do crap in this kind of environment if they have no resources.

Edited, May 8th 2011 1:40am by idiggory
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#12 May 08 2011 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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#13 May 08 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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Bastard! I clicked this thread solely with the intention of writing that. Smiley: mad

Also: Oh, deja vu.

Edited, May 8th 2011 2:46am by Eske
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#14 May 08 2011 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Obviously the answer is private schools, because they're so much more efficient (even though they're totally not and most Detroit families couldn't afford better anyway).

This is totally a failing of public education and not an indication of other social problems.
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#15 May 08 2011 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good
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A whole lot of money.


Theifguy, that's how you improve the education system, so I take it that you're either refusing to answer the question, or, and I suppose this is fairly unlikely, you're agreeing that you can't have a good education system without funding.

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What we need to do is throw more of other people's money at the problem. That will fix it.


Well, yes. If you were to remove public funding, the average education level of the entire country would drop due to many families not being able to afford to send their children to the privately funded schools(which, without public funding, would be the only schools).

This isn't really something that can be any different, if you want a basic k-12 education for all citizens, then it has to be publicly funded.
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#16 May 08 2011 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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I can't say that "You get what you pay for." But states that spend more on education and keep good teachers
have the better results. Just from my travels across the country and living in different states. My experiences with kids and education follows that line. Just from my experiences in college showed me that even schools in towns can be much better than another city on the other side of the state or even states close by.
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#17 May 08 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wooo! Florida is only number 36! I'm surprised the state didn't make the bottom 10 Smiley: tongue
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#18 May 08 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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I was a little upset that Ohio was as low as it was. I know I came out of the system with a good public education. There are certainly failing schools in the state however. Cincinnati Public is one of them.
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#19 May 08 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Wooo! Florida is only number 36! I'm surprised the state didn't make the bottom 10 Smiley: tongue
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#20 May 08 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Wooo! Florida is only number 36! I'm surprised the state didn't make the bottom 10 Smiley: tongue
I am not surprised at my state's ranking, but am slightly amused at our score.
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#21 May 08 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Just think of all the money the city will save because they don't have to fund the libraries anymore.

Good news!
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#22 May 08 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefX wrote:
This what happens when you let liberalism take over completely.


Detroit


I am honestly puzzled by this statement. What about liberalism creates illiteracy?

Could you please try to make a cogent argument instead of just tossing out inflammatory statements?

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Definitions of liberalism on the Web:

* a political orientation that favors social progress by reform and by changing laws rather than by revolution
* an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market

* Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights. ...

* Liberalism in the United States is a broad political and philosophical mindset favoring individual liberty.

* The quality of being liberal; Any political movement founded on the autonomy and personal freedom of the individual, progress and reform, and government by law with the consent of the governed; An economic theory in favour of laissez faire and the free market

* liberal - broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
* liberal - tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
* liberal - a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
* liberal - big: given or giving freely; "was a big tipper"; "the bounteous goodness of God"; "bountiful compliments"; "a freehanded host"; "a handsome allowance"; "Saturday's child is loving and giving"; "a liberal backer of the arts"; "a munificent gift"; "her fond and openhanded grandfather"
* liberal - free: not literal; "a loose interpretation of what she had been told"; "a free translation of the poem"


So what about Liberalism creates illiteracy? Tolerance of different viewpoints? A belief in gradual reform? Promotion of free market economics?

Please, enlighten us.
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#23 May 08 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Obviously because public education is a liberal tenet, and public education isn't always great, liberalism is to blame. Correlation= causation. There's no way that things would actually be worse if there were no public education at all.

Knowing what's under the hood of the argument, you might be inclined to think it's some simple misunderstanding. Oh no-- this is some carefully orchestrated denial. A much more complicated fix than you might think.
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#24 May 09 2011 at 5:16 AM Rating: Default
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Wow, a state actually got beat out by Mississippi...
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#25MoebiusLord, Posted: May 09 2011 at 9:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ladies and gentlemen, the product of higher education.
#26 May 09 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Ladies and gentlemen, the product of higher education.

Most of you are ignoring the specifics of the article and the thread and trying to turn this in to an education spending thread. It's not surprising, just counter-productive. Detroit has been in the hands of the Democrat Party for decades. The policies that have driven money out and entrenched questionable spending are directly to blame for the state of education in that city. They are causal.


And state and federal politics obviously have no impact on how well a school performs. And Detroit is obviously a rich city that would be able to completely fund all its schools on its own. Nice, small little scope you have there. Very quaint.

In any case, the article wasn't even about schools. But the only reasonable way you could believe liberalism would lead to illiteracy is by blaming them. Thus, if we are going to respond to the OP's claim, you'd have to talk about schools and partisan approaches to them.

This thread was about schools and partisan issues from the start.

Why is that hard to understand?
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#27 May 09 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory wrote:
And state and federal politics obviously have no impact on how well a school performs. And Detroit is obviously a rich city that would be able to completely fund all its schools on its own. Nice, small little scope you have there. Very quaint.

Detroit should have no problem funding its own schools. There's plenty of money there to fritter away on other social programs. Special Ed (IDEA, 1990) (national politics), over taxing productive people (state/national politics) certainly add to the problem, but in 2005 the average Detroit metro teacher was earned over $47.00 an hour. Gotta love those union contracts.
idiggory wrote:
In any case, the article wasn't even about schools. But the only reasonable way you could believe liberalism would lead to illiteracy is by blaming them. Thus, if we are going to respond to the OP's claim, you'd have to talk about schools and partisan approaches to them.

Liberals run a school board, a school board signs contracts, contracts set teacher pay, teachers fail to teach students, students can't read.

Liberals fail at education.
idiggory wrote:
This thread was about schools and partisan issues from the start.

In Detroit.
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Why is that hard to understand?

Dunno, you tell me, Epic.
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#28 May 09 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Liberals fail at education.
In Detroit.
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#29 May 09 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Liberals fail at education.
In Detroit.

Undeniably fair. Personally, I would love to see an example of its success, though I would not discount the possibility off hand.
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#30 May 09 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
bsphil wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Liberals fail at education.
In Detroit.
Undeniably fair. Personally, I would love to see an example of its success, though I would not discount the possibility off hand.
IIRC South Carolina was making great strides in the last several years with a law to allow a maximum of 40% of their students lunches to be subsidized per school (the result being a much more thorough integration of "rich" and "poor" kids in schools). It was addressing the problem of inner-city school systems fairly effectively.

I know the Tea Party in SC hated it, but I haven't followed what has become of that. I could be off on some of the details, it's been a while.



Edited, May 9th 2011 4:22pm by bsphil
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#31 May 09 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Undeniably fair. Personally, I would love to see an example of its success, though I would not discount the possibility off hand.


Considering the more liberal states have better education, I'd say you're not looking very hard.
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#32 May 09 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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Please also tell me how much the average teacher pays out of pocket for the training to become a teacher - because that should figure into what a fair wage for a teacher is.

I would also like to see the evidence that shows more poorly paid teachers achieve better results in teaching literacy skills.

And would you be so kind to explain how the collapse of the detroit car industry is the fault of city council or whomever you are blaming here? Forgive me, but where I come from, civic politicians have very little leverage over industries which are heavily affected by global competition.

I am pretty sure a lot of the people working in those car plants were making more than teachers. Which is more important? Making cars or teaching children? Which requires more of a personal investment in resources in order to attain qualifications?
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#33 May 09 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Please also tell me how much the average teacher pays out of pocket for the training to become a teacher - because that should figure into what a fair wage for a teacher is.


Depending on the program and your aims, it's 4-6 years of additional education after high school.

I pay about $23k a year at Rutgers, all things considered, and will be doing so for a total of 6 years to graduate with a teaching certification, a masters in education, and an undergrad degree. So my personal investment is $138k.

[EDIT]
And Rutgers is a public school, and I pay in-state tuition. Out of state students pay $10k more. Private school students will see even higher costs.

Edited, May 9th 2011 9:46pm by idiggory
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#34 May 09 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
Please also tell me how much the average teacher pays out of pocket for the training to become a teacher - because that should figure into what a fair wage for a teacher is.


Depending on the program and your aims, it's 4-6 years of additional education after high school.

I pay about $23k a year at Rutgers, all things considered, and will be doing so for a total of 6 years to graduate with a teaching certification, a masters in education, and an undergrad degree. So my personal investment is $138k.

[EDIT]
And Rutgers is a public school, and I pay in-state tuition. Out of state students pay $10k more. Private school students will see even higher costs.
Ouch, rough. UW system schools are about 8k/year here in WI. Out of state tuition is about $10k/year more as well.
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#35 May 09 2011 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Please also tell me how much the average teacher pays out of pocket for the training to become a teacher - because that should figure into what a fair wage for a teacher is.


First off, why does this matter? Did the degrees earned by the other 99% of people who graduated college magically cost them less or something?

Secondly, the very concept of trying to figure out "what a fair wage for <anyone> is" shows just how warped your understanding of labor value is. There's no such thing as a third party figuring out a fair wage is. The fair wage is what the employer is wiling to pay, which the employee is willing to accept. Unfortunately, when the government (and some larger unions) get involved, the first thing they do is eliminate competition so that the normal market forces you'd use to make that process work aren't present. Then they sell the masses on the idea that we should just make up pay numbers by fiat based on what we think the value of something is.

It's ridiculous.

Quote:
I would also like to see the evidence that shows more poorly paid teachers achieve better results in teaching literacy skills.


Well, if we're to take the assumption that K-12 public school teachers make more than K-12 private school teachers as truth, then this would seem to be the case. Of course, we all know it's not really about the pay though. It's about whether the system operates in a competitive environment or not. Private schools manage to produce better educated students with less money spent per student very very consistently.

Your question is somewhat of a red herring, isn't it?

Quote:
And would you be so kind to explain how the collapse of the detroit car industry is the fault of city council or whomever you are blaming here? Forgive me, but where I come from, civic politicians have very little leverage over industries which are heavily affected by global competition.


The city of Detroit was an experiment in planned civic development, which failed spectacularly. The problems and how they are connected to those running the city go farther than just the auto industry. You're assuming that the city affected the car industry which affected the prosperity. It's more like the city affected prosperity, which chased away anyone who wanted a better life and was able to leave, which left the city (and the car industry) with those who stayed. It wasn't quite the chain you're talking about, but the whole mess is interconnected.

Quote:
I am pretty sure a lot of the people working in those car plants were making more than teachers. Which is more important? Making cars or teaching children? Which requires more of a personal investment in resources in order to attain qualifications?


And I'm pretty sure they were also union employers who were overpaid. I'm not sure what your point is. If you think that the pay of those workers is the doing of the evil free market, you really don't understand what's going on.

The problem with Detroit is that they ran all the actual free market players out of the city. Which left only those that could be subsidized or contractually forced to stay. The result was predictable. The city fell into decline. You just can't maintain a system like that for very long. Detroit is a lesson for us about what happens when liberal economic policies are actually adopted across the board. It's what happens when you attempt to have "really smart people" decide what the outcomes should be and empower them to make those things happen instead of just letting the natural forces out there determine the result. No matter how smart you think you are, or how well funded your committees are, you're just never going to determine how much a loaf of bread (or a persons salary) should be better than a market in which people get to choose what to spend their own money on.


That's why liberal policies fail. The unfortunate fact is that not enough people realize this.
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#36 May 09 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Ouch, rough. UW system schools are about 8k/year here in WI. Out of state tuition is about $10k/year more as well.


Well, the cost for commuters is only like $12-14k a year. But if you need to live on campus/get an apartment, your costs skyrocket. Housing/food costs a ton, and since New Brunswick is a college town, all the apartments have massively inflated rent costs.

gbaji, you're an idiot. The car industry crashed which stripped a massive number of jobs from the city, as well as massively reducing the cash flow in. And it crashed despite the tariffs on foreign cars. The free market is essentially what crushed the city.

It isn't like the industry just decided to move to a different town, because Detroit's taxes were too high.

Just as it did hundreds of other old industrial towns throughout the country/world, almost all of whom still see high poverty rates due to the sudden loss of so many jobs.
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#37 May 09 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering the more liberal states have better education, I'd say you're not looking very hard.

Good thing the GOP made sure to bust up the WI teacher's unions. Those lazy assholes were only at #8 in the nation. Maybe now they'll shoot past the Republican bastion of Vermont for the #1 spot.
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#38 May 09 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's so sad. Teachers are looked upon with pity and awe for usually doing such a sh*t job for low wages, but when people hear that they are getting paid a decent living wage they flip their sh*t. Come on now, who really wants to leave their child for 8 hours a day with someone who makes less money than a cocktail waitress?
#39 May 09 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's so sad. Teachers are looked upon with pity and awe for usually doing such a sh*t job for low wages, but when people hear that they are getting paid a decent living wage they flip their sh*t. Come on now, who really wants to leave their child for 8 hours a day with someone who makes less money than a cocktail waitress?


Republicans, apparently.
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#40 May 09 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
gbaji, you're an idiot. The car industry crashed which stripped a massive number of jobs from the city, as well as massively reducing the cash flow in.


Detroit has been slowly falling apart since the mid 60s. What happened was that the only thing keeping the city going was the car industry, because it had chased out everything else with its economic policies. So yes, shifts in that industry affects the city more than others, but that's because it's already fallen into a failed model. That isn't the failure itself, but a symptom of it.


Quote:
And it crashed despite the tariffs on foreign cars. The free market is essentially what crushed the city.


Lol! Despite those tariffs? And it was the free market's fault? Really?

Try thinking about that. It might just occur to you why it's not the free market to blame here.

Quote:
It isn't like the industry just decided to move to a different town, because Detroit's taxes were too high.


It's exactly like that. Except that it's most of the other industries which did this 40-50 years ago, leaving only those industries which were in many cases literally contractually obligated to continue operating in the city to remain. That left a city which had too much population and not enough jobs, and decline followed. One industry can't sustain a city that size. You just can't circle the same money around and think you can make prosperity if not enough people are making things. It is a failure of liberal economic policies. I'd explain why, but I'm trying hard to spare people the dozen or so paragraphs of the history of Keynesian economic theory and which parts fail utterly if you take them as givens (which far too many Democratic economic planners do) which would be required.

Quote:
Just as it did hundreds of other old industrial towns throughout the country/world, almost all of whom still see high poverty rates due to the sudden loss of so many jobs.


Of course a city will see high poverty rates when there's a sudden loss of lots of jobs. That's like saying that "people will become hungry when there's not enough food to eat". The cause isn't that there's not enough food to eat though. The cause is about what caused there to not be enough food to eat, right?

Same deal here. Look at why there aren't enough jobs in Detroit even when the car companies are doing well, and you'll realize that short term trends in the auto industry really aren't the cause of Detroit's problems.
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#41 May 09 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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People freak out whenever they hear that public employees make decent salaries--it doesn't matter who they are. Some positions have become a taboo topic to talk about (like police), but the others are huge.

NJ has one of the highest median teacher salaries in the nation. But in terms with the NJ economy, the most teachers make lower-mid middle class wages. Then administrators are upper middle class.

IDK, that doesn't strike me as an issue. I fail to see why public employees doing important jobs (especially when they require degrees that will cost them $80k+ in investment) shouldn't be able to earn middle class salaries.

(why edit when I can +1?)

Edited, May 9th 2011 11:12pm by idiggory
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#42gbaji, Posted: May 09 2011 at 9:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah. Just like this.
#43 May 09 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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Assuming this wiki page is correct, Detroit has been spread pretty evenly as far as mayoral parties go. Looks like they generally cycle through periods of one, then the other.

Hardly seems fair to blame the city's failures on liberals alone, considering they've only consistently been in power since '68.

Also, if you are going to blame libs for the reason people left the city, you should maybe take a minute to actually, y'know, consider history. The liberal policies that drove the white middle-class from Detroit were those defending the auto plants' color-blind promotion policies. That's right, they were pissed that the city wasn't trying to actively keep blacks down.

So are you telling me you think it's a mistake that the gov't didn't put forth legislation to stop color-blind, merit-based promotions?

Edited, May 9th 2011 11:11pm by idiggory
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#44 May 09 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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#45 May 09 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Default
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Assuming this wiki page is correct, Detroit has been spread pretty evenly as far as mayoral parties go. Looks like they generally cycle through periods of one, then the other.

Hardly seems fair to blame the city's failures on liberals alone, considering they've only consistently been in power since '68.


They've held it since '62. As blaming parties for failures occuring during their term goes, this is pretty much as fair as it gets. That may not be very fair at all, but it's ridiculous to say this is because the period of time is too short. It is utterly butterly absurd.

Quote:
The correct statement would be to ask if you'd want to leave your child for 8 hours a day with someone who makes slightly less money than a senior engineer, or someone in middle management, or a Brigadier General. Because the median pay for public school teachers is about the same as the starting pay scale for those other jobs. Can we please stop making comparisons to public teacher pay to that of cocktail waitresses?


Of course, Guenny's doing more than comparing the merits of the two jobs (and thus how much you might expect them to be paid, respectively).

Quote:
Come on now, who really wants to leave their child for 8 hours a day with someone who makes less money than a cocktail waitress?


She's drawing an equivalence between someone's trustowrthiness/moral fibre and how much they are paid. The way it is worded, 'leave your child', is evocative of this, rather than the quality of teaching.

Then the cocktail waitress is brought in. This is a high-earning job, or so we are being led to believe, that is surrounded by prejudice - that they are bad influences on children. This prejudice is weaponised and transferred with vengeance on to teachers; if they earn less than coctail waitresses then, according to the equivalence, they must be even worse. Therefore, if our kids are to be raised in a wholesome environment, we have to pay teacehrs mroe to attract the right sort.

I'm sure you understood that, but I think Guenny's duplicity needs to be made explicit.



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#46 May 09 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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They've held it since '62. As blaming parties for failures occuring during their term goes, this is pretty much as fair as it gets. That may not be very fair at all, but it's ridiculous to say this is because the period of time is too short. It is utterly butterly absurd.


Detroit might have been largely democratic since then, but Michigan at large hasn't been--between '63 and '03, only 8 years had a democratic governor.

So, no, I don't think it's fair to blame liberals for the current state of affairs. I wouldn't particularly blame the GOP either--I'd blame racism (and I have no clue what the political affiliation of the white auto-workers from the 40s through the 60s were) and the collapse of the auto industry.

Oh, fun fact, Detroit's high school graduation rate was reported as 24.9% in 2008. :/
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#47 May 10 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I'd blame racism

How can you blame racism when your fun fact clearly demonstrates it to be not true?
idiggory wrote:
Oh, fun fact, Detroit's high school graduation rate was reported as 24.9% in 2008. :/

Considering Detroit only has 3 white families any more, that means there have to be some minorities graduating.
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#48 May 10 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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How can you blame racism when your fun fact clearly demonstrates it to be not true?


I blamed racism, I didn't blame racism specifically in the gov't. Try to keep up.
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#49 May 10 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Guenny wrote:
It's so sad. Teachers are looked upon with pity and awe for usually doing such a sh*t job for low wages, but when people hear that they are getting paid a decent living wage they flip their sh*t.


People flip out because they constantly hear people (like you) present false impressions of how poorly paid teachers are, then they find out that the median teachers income is about double the median income nationwide. There are an awful lot of working class people who think that teachers make what they make, then they find out that they make a lot more and flip out because they feel like they've been lied to.


That so? Double the median eh? In Iowa (9th in the nation in education), which is where both Guenny and I reside, the starting salary is $27,284.00 which isn't enough to cover a 1 bedroom apartment and their student loans. After ten years, it's $41,083. The average median income from 2008 in this county? $52,029 A far @#%^ing cry from double the salary you claim.

Senior Engineer: $73,741

Brigadier General: $97,476

The median salary of waitresses in 2009? $20,380, without tips. So roughly around 25-27.

So, what other bullsh*t are you trying to perpetuate?

Edited, May 10th 2011 10:44am by Kaelesh
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#50 May 10 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Comparing it to starting salary isn't really the way to go but, according to Salary.com:
Quote:
The median expected salary for a typical Public School Teacher in the United States is $50,247. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.


According to SimplyHired.com, it's $47,000 on average.

So the median salary is a little under the national average and well under "twice the average" or the other careers Gbaji cites.

Edited, May 10th 2011 10:49am by Jophiel
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#51 May 10 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Kaelesh wrote:
The median salary of waitresses in 2009? $20,380, without tips. So roughly around 25-27.
Where'd you come up with that figure?
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