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#52 May 06 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
I still don't see where that would actually be less expensive except in fantasyland.
Really? How can you not see that if we remove a dependent from the equation, that we'd be spending less.
Can't really get rid of lawyers. Kind of like why the death penalty is more expensive than letting criminals rot in jail for the rest of their life.
Well, guess the first step is adjusting the law then, isn't it?

Edited, May 6th 2011 1:24pm by Uglysasquatch
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#53 May 06 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I guess the difference I see is animals are not people.
You're right as well; I've never seen a chicken go back to its coup and beat a hen to death because she didn't bring corn for him to eat.
One of my hamsters killed it's cage mate. Not sure what the reason was though.
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#54 May 06 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
Can't really get rid of lawyers.
If knocking off addicts is allowed, we're well past the ethical milestone that would keep us from doing the same to lawyers.
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#55 May 06 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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I would need legitimate proof that someone is capable of kicking the habit, but chooses not to. And that means we'd need to invest in research into addiction. Even then I wouldn't support offing the addicts, but I think it would be a different story.

Because if someone is physically incapable of keeping themselves from the drug, I would consider it a disability. It's not like they are actively choosing to go against society.
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#56 May 06 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not differentiating between chooses not to or incapable of. At some point, there's no reason for us to continue paying for them. Actually, if they're incapable of ever being rehabilitated, even more so. Why waste the money on them if they're incapable?
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#57 May 06 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I guess the difference I see is animals are not people.
You're right as well; I've never seen a chicken go back to its coup and beat a hen to death because she didn't bring corn for him to eat.
One of my hamsters killed it's cage mate. Not sure what the reason was though.
Hamsters are highly territorial. Not saying that's the reason, but not knowing any details that would be my guess. Even if it were just a random hamster mugging for a carrot, that really doesn't say people are any different.
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#58 May 06 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not differentiating between chooses not to or incapable of. At some point, there's no reason for us to continue paying for them. Actually, if they're incapable of ever being rehabilitated, even more so. Why waste the money on them if they're incapable?


Because I don't think it's up to you to decide whether or not someone has a right to life purely based on their physiology. People with down syndrome will always be a financial drain on society--those that are capable of working are never going to produce enough cash to cover their cost of living. But it strikes me as ******** if you don't think they have the right to live purely because of their disability.

If someone's choosing to be a drain on society, it's one thing. If someone has no choice but to be, then society shouldn't punish them for that.
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#59 May 06 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
If someone's choosing to be a drain on society, it's one thing.
Unless someone stuck you with your first needle, you made a choice. Want to add a addendum for people who were forced into drugs by someone else sticking them? I'll consider it. Everyone else though, knows whats involved and just decided not to heed those warnings.

Nice touch though, likening a drug addict to someone with downs. Clearly, you think very little of the mentally challenged.

Edited, May 6th 2011 2:01pm by Uglysasquatch
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#60 May 06 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
those that are capable of working are never going to produce enough cash to cover their cost of living.
Not making money doesn't really equate to a drain on society.
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#61 May 06 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless someone stuck you with your first needle, you made a choice. Want to add a addendum for people who were forced into drugs by someone else sticking them? I'll consider it. Everyone else though, knows whats involved and just decided not to heed those warnings.

Nice touch though, likening a drug addict to someone with downs. Clearly, you think very little of the mentally challenged.


Many, many addicts form out of situations that began with prescription drugs (often painkillers). They become addicted long before they realize it, and the nature of an addiction means they won't be able to stop without support (which they won't ask for, because of their nature as an addict). So it escalates to harder drugs.

Are there plenty of addicts that voluntarily took the first step? Yes. But it's definitely not all of them.

And that's not to mention the number of addicts who end up in their position because they came out of situations in which using drugs was a vastly preferable option to dealing with the **** that is their life. And I'm not talking about the hardest stuff first--I'm talking about using the more recreational ones. Like taking hits of acid after you're already drunk at a parties.

Frankly, this is just an excellent example of why it's so hard for addicts to get clean in our society in the first place. People actively incriminate them for being addicts, instead of trying to help them out of their ****.

Quote:
Not making money doesn't really equate to a drain on society.


I only used the money example because it is what everyone's been fixating on--not wanting to pay the way for someone else.
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#62 May 06 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Frankly, this is just an excellent example of why it's so hard for addicts to get clean in our society in the first place. People actively incriminate them for being addicts, instead of trying to help them out of their ****.
That's exactly what I've done here too. I mean, at no point here did I state any desire to help them first. I went straight to lets just get rid of them.
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#63 May 06 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I can just imagine that addicts will come forward for help when they know that, if they can't get clean, they're going to be killed (or at least lose all their rights to medical aid). That's definitely going to work.

NATURALLY it'll create an environment of healing, where people will actively seek help. Where they won't do everything they can to deny they have a problem, and no one knows until they're unemployed and out on the streets.

Thinking things through is hard work.
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#64 May 06 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
Thinking things through is hard work.
It is apparently, because enabling them clearly isn't working either.
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#65 May 06 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Yeah, I can just imagine that addicts will come forward for help when they know that, if they can't get clean, they're going to be killed (or at least lose all their rights to medical aid).
Except the euthanasia option isn't for people that voluntarily seek help, but for the ones that are picked up and sentenced to rehab every few weeks.
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#66 May 06 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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That's my point. An addict can't imagine their life without the drug--going to rehab is a leap of faith. Given that the only future you can reasonably see for yourself includes addiction, you are going to see the axed rights of an addict as the future you'll have if you do seek aid.

Quote:
It is apparently, because enabling them clearly isn't working either.


ROFL, you think our society is ENABLING addicts? Take a look at Portugeuse drug policy. They legalized them all a few years back, and it led to a huge drop in addiction rates and a massive increase in the number of people seeking help. Because those people didn't have to worry about being criminalized for their addictions.

It has also allowed local gov'ts and communities to set up help shelters without having to worry about laws that target addicts (specifically, those that possess illegal drugs or have drugs in their systems).

If you actually bothered to look at the history of drug policy, you'd find that laws promising punishment on addicts ensure that addicts avoid seeking help.
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#67 May 06 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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ROFL, you think our society is ENABLING addicts?
No. I think it enables those who continue to use and not take help.


Its ok, you keep living in the fantasy world where everyone can be helped and I'll live in the reality where not everyone can. I wish I could be delusional like you though, if that's any consolation.
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#68 May 06 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Its ok, you keep living in the fantasy world where everyone can be helped and I'll live in the reality where not everyone can. I wish I could be delusional like you though, if that's any consolation.


Um, I fully acknowledge that not every CAN be helped. Actually, I think I was the first one in the thread to voice that fact--before then, everyone was talking about those who refuse to let anyone help them, which is completely different.

I just don't agree that stripping medical rights from those that can't beat an addiction is just.

If you are going to go for an ad hominem attack, at least keep it logical. Because right now you just look like gbaji.
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#69 May 06 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Actually, I think I was the first one in the thread to voice that fact--before then, everyone was talking about those who refuse to let anyone help them, which is completely different
Not true. You just assumed that's who I was talking about, when in fact, I never differentiated in anyway. My concern is those that have not been cleaned up. Why they can't be cleaned up, isn't my biggest concern. My end goal is to help those that can be helped and will accept the help. Everyone else, be gone. You can help them through private funding if you want, but leave my money alone.


idiggory wrote:
I just don't agree that stripping medical rights from those that can't beat an addiction is just.
Neither is forcing the rest of us to pay for them to never be cleaned up. You picked your poison, I picked mine.

idiggory wrote:
If you are going to go for an ad hominem attack, at least keep it logical. Because right now you just look like gbaji.
You're the one who made assumptions based on my posts without seeking further clarification on each point. You jumped to conclusions. That's your problem, not mine. Basically, if you want to classify me under the same as gbaji, because you made assumptions, that's no skin off my back as I don't care how you view me.
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#70 May 06 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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I agree (mostly) with Ugly.
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#71 May 06 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Bardalicious wrote:
I agree (mostly) with Ugly.
Let's be honest here. What I'm talking about makes sense. Do I agree that in areas, I'm advocating something too extreme? Sure, that's my cup of tea though and doesn't have to be yours. It doesn't change the root of it all though.
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#72 May 06 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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I wish we could help everyone, all the time, but I know we can't.

Mostly, I just don't worry about what happens to drug addicts, because I am not one, and it's not a segment of the population I'm too concerned with. Apathy is where it's at, I suppose. I certainly have very, very little compassion for an addict who won't bother to help him/herself.
#73 May 06 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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I think you have an argument for those that CAN help themselves and choose not to. But I think including in the pool those who cannot help themselves, even if they want to, is horrific.
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#74 May 06 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Well that's a different story entirely. The only problem is that lawyers are like cockroaches.


Words hurt, Sweetums.
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#75 May 06 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find forcing people to suffer just because it makes you feel better about yourself to be horrible.
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#76 May 06 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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You're viewing the murder of an addict as mercy? Because we aren't talking about assisted suicide, we're discussing murder.
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IDrownFish wrote:
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