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#1 May 06 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/06/where-alcoholics-can-drink-themselves-to-death/?hpt=C2
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St. Anthony, which receives funds from the state and the Catholic church, is known as a "wet house" because Hagerman and the others are allowed to drink on site, with some caveats - including no mouthwash.

"It's not bad. I got cable TV," Hagerman says. "You can't drink in your room, but you can drink. You gotta do it outside."

The theory is that it's better to allow these guys to drink in a safe place than to end up on the streets and in the city's emergency rooms, jails, and detox centers. At St. Anthony, they have access to nurses - and doctors if the situation warrants - plus on-site case managers to aid in their addiction. Ideally, St. Anthony's counselors want the residents to sober up – but they realize that there isn't a strong chance of that happening.

St. Paul isn't the only city that has a "wet house"-style residence - Seattle was one of the first cities to put this concept into practice in 2005, and Memphis is considering building one, too.

Another argument in favor of the concept is that it saves money. Each St. Anthony's resident costs about $18,000 a year to house and feed, about $1,500 a month. A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association indicates that if these men were out on the street, it could cost over $4,000 a month in incarceration, shelter and sobering center use, hospital-based medical services, publicly funded alcohol and drug detoxification and treatment, and emergency medical services.

But the idea of allowing alcoholics to drink is antithetic to the basic tenets of addiction counseling.


There are similar concepts in the EU, Canada, and Australia for harder drugs - usually injected ones like heroin. The idea being, if people are going to be addicted, at least let them be safe, not be a public nuisance, and give them the chance to get clean if they want to. Wikipedia refers to these as safe injection sites. The results seem pretty mixed on taking down crime or preventing overdoses, but in general the cost to society overall is less than if they lived on the streets.

Anyone else have more information or opinions on this idea? I don't like the idea myself... it feels like good intentions gone horribly wrong. While recovery help is available, the addiction itself is directly provided, which sorta nullifies the entire idea.
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#2 May 06 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
There are similar concepts in the EU, Canada, and Australia for harder drugs - usually injected ones like heroin. The idea being, if people are going to be addicted, at least let them be safe, not be a public nuisance, and give them the chance to get clean if they want to. Wikipedia refers to these as safe injection sites. The results seem pretty mixed on taking down crime or preventing overdoses, but in general the cost to society overall is less than if they lived on the streets.

Anyone else have more information or opinions on this idea? I don't like the idea myself... it feels like good intentions gone horribly wrong. While recovery help is available, the addiction itself is directly provided, which sorta nullifies the entire idea.


One of my bosses was in Australia and said the first time she went into a public ladies room, she saw one of those biohazard boxes that you put needles in. She was surprised. She was later told that there are places you can get clean needles, no questions asked.

Someone isn't going to really get clean until they want to. Until that time, I think making an effort to reduce them spreading disease by sharing needles is a good idea. It's not like they're supplying the drugs to them, just looking after them to make sure they don't kill themselves or anyone else.
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#3 May 06 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
There are similar concepts in the EU, Canada, and Australia for harder drugs - usually injected ones like heroin. The idea being, if people are going to be addicted, at least let them be safe, not be a public nuisance, and give them the chance to get clean if they want to. Wikipedia refers to these as safe injection sites. The results seem pretty mixed on taking down crime or preventing overdoses, but in general the cost to society overall is less than if they lived on the streets.

Anyone else have more information or opinions on this idea? I don't like the idea myself... it feels like good intentions gone horribly wrong. While recovery help is available, the addiction itself is directly provided, which sorta nullifies the entire idea.


One of my bosses was in Australia and said the first time she went into a public ladies room, she saw one of those biohazard boxes that you put needles in. She was surprised. She was later told that there are places you can get clean needles, no questions asked.

Someone isn't going to really get clean until they want to. Until that time, I think making an effort to reduce them spreading disease by sharing needles is a good idea. It's not like they're supplying the drugs to them, just looking after them to make sure they don't kill themselves or anyone else.
It also provides an opportunity to get away from their fellow junkies, just for a little while, and potentially meet someone who can help them break their addiction.
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#4 May 06 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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I'm OK with the idea so long as the goal is to ween them off of their addiction, with a time table set as to when we classify them as hopeless if they don't clean up, and then at that point, we set them free and let them off themselves, meaning we don't incarcerate them or treat them medically either. Barbaric? I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
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#5 May 06 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I'm OK with the idea so long as the goal is to ween them off of their addiction, with a time table set as to when we classify them as hopeless if they don't clean up, and then at that point, we set them free and let them off themselves, meaning we don't incarcerate them or treat them medically either. Barbaric? I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
IV drug users are at a higher risk of HIV, and can pass on HIV to their partner who is unaware and potentially not an IV drug user.
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#6 May 06 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, OD them before they leave the complex. Trying to reason with me is going to be difficult on this one as my compassion for others is limited to them trying to help themselves as well.
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#7 May 06 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't necessarily care about the people individually, it's simply an issue of public health. ER visits are significantly more expensive than letting the druggie drug with supervision from people who aren't dipsh*t junkies. They'll be in legal hot water if they let them die, costing even more money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had opiate blockers on hand, which would also reduce costs.

Also, how are you going to determine an optimal time?

why can't I ever make up my mind when posting?

Edited, May 6th 2011 9:32am by Sweetums
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#8 May 06 2011 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
I'm not a fan of it either, but you're still paying for it when they go to jail and court ordered rehab and such.
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#9 May 06 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
I'm not a fan of it either, but you're still paying for it when they go to jail and court ordered rehab and such.
I've covered this point already.
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#10 May 06 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I'm OK with the idea so long as the goal is to ween them off of their addiction, with a time table set as to when we classify them as hopeless if they don't clean up, and then at that point, we set them free and let them off themselves, meaning we don't incarcerate them or treat them medically either. Barbaric? I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
Yeah, I'm kind of with this.

When I was in High School they opened a student smoking lounge with similar reasoning. I think the outcome was a generation of nicotine addicts.

The thing with Alcohol is though, if you're an addict that has lost your livelihood to the drink, anything short of full-scale quitting isn't really going to help.

It would be interesting to see an experiment or even some kind of metric of dry vs wet halfway house and how many alcoholic customers end up dead (untimely), and how many are rehabilitated enough to be useful and/or self-supportive, and how many just stay - long term on the dole.


Edited, May 6th 2011 4:39pm by Elinda
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#11 May 06 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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I've been to the facility in the article. It's in the part of town we should be consigning the retched refuse to. I say take 12-16 blocks over there and wall them off so we can add more people to it.

Look, it's private money, so no matter how poorly spent it is I honestly don't give a sh;t. These people made the choice to become degenerates, so as long as they're off the streets and out of sight, let them drink themselves to death. The real blight is the Dorothy Day Center in downtown St. Paul. If they could only figure out a way to move that things, we'd have no homeless peoples downtown. They'd all be over by the railroad yard, so it'd be a shorter walk for all the bums coming up from Chicago.
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#12 May 06 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Sweetums wrote:
I don't necessarily care about the people individually, it's simply an issue of public health. ER visits are significantly more expensive than letting the druggie drug with supervision from people who aren't dipsh*t junkies. They'll be in legal hot water if they let them die, costing even more money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had opiate blockers on hand, which would also reduce costs.
As pointed out Gaxe, I've covered my thoughts on this already. cut them off from everything.

Sweetums wrote:
Also, how are you going to determine an optimal time?
I'm willing to leave that to experts, and given that we're talking about giving up on someone, I'm going to even side with those experts that give a long period as opposed to those that determine a shorter period.
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#13 May 06 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
I'm OK with the idea so long as the goal is to ween them off of their addiction, with a time table set as to when we classify them as hopeless if they don't clean up, and then at that point, we set them free and let them off themselves, meaning we don't incarcerate them or treat them medically either. Barbaric? I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
Yeah, I'm kind of with this.

When I was in High School they opened a student smoking lounge with similar reasoning. I think the outcome was a generation of nicotine addicts.

The thing with Alcohol is though, if you're an addict that has lost your livelihood to the drink, anything short of full-scale quitting isn't really going to help.

It would be interesting to see an experiment or even some kind of metric of dry vs wet halfway house and how many alcoholic customers end up dead (untimely), and how many are rehabilitated enough to be useful and/or self-supportive.
I don't think you can really equate nicotine addiction with heroin addiction.

With an issue as contentious as allowing illicit drug users to use with government acceptance, there have probably been positive studies just to quell some of the opposition.

It's not only to help the junkies. A lower prevalence of HIV benefits everyone.
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#14 May 06 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
I don't necessarily care about the people individually, it's simply an issue of public health. ER visits are significantly more expensive than letting the druggie drug with supervision from people who aren't dipsh*t junkies. They'll be in legal hot water if they let them die, costing even more money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had opiate blockers on hand, which would also reduce costs.
As pointed out Gaxe, I've covered my thoughts on this already. cut them off from everything.
That's probably about as tenable as drug prohibition.
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#15 May 06 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
I don't necessarily care about the people individually, it's simply an issue of public health. ER visits are significantly more expensive than letting the druggie drug with supervision from people who aren't dipsh*t junkies. They'll be in legal hot water if they let them die, costing even more money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had opiate blockers on hand, which would also reduce costs.
As pointed out Gaxe, I've covered my thoughts on this already. cut them off from everything.
That's probably about as tenable as drug prohibition.
No, its much easier if the bleeding hearts would let us.
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#16 May 06 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
I don't necessarily care about the people individually, it's simply an issue of public health. ER visits are significantly more expensive than letting the druggie drug with supervision from people who aren't dipsh*t junkies. They'll be in legal hot water if they let them die, costing even more money. I wouldn't be surprised if they had opiate blockers on hand, which would also reduce costs.
As pointed out Gaxe, I've covered my thoughts on this already. cut them off from everything.
That's probably about as tenable as drug prohibition.
No, its much easier if the bleeding hearts would let us.
I live in Texas and it's still quite easy to get drugs. Remember: we execute retards.

Edited, May 6th 2011 9:54am by Sweetums
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#17 May 06 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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No no, let them have the drugs, just don't try and resuscitate them when they OD. Let the fuckers go. Their time here is done.
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#18 May 06 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
No no, let them have the drugs, just don't try and resuscitate them when they OD. Let the fuckers go. Their time here is done.
It ain't the bleeding hearts in that case. It's the ambulance chasers.
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#19 May 06 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
Remember: we execute retards.
You also make them governors.
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#20 May 06 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Remember: we execute retards.
You also make them governors.
Hopefully, we execute them afterwards.
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#21 May 06 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Do they provide the drugs too, or is it BYOB?
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#22 May 06 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Sweetums wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
No no, let them have the drugs, just don't try and resuscitate them when they OD. Let the fuckers go. Their time here is done.
It ain't the bleeding hearts in that case. It's the ambulance chasers.
I have no problem sticking them with a needle and having them join their clients.
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#23 May 06 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
I'm OK with the idea so long as the goal is to ween them off of their addiction, with a time table set as to when we classify them as hopeless if they don't clean up, and then at that point, we set them free and let them off themselves, meaning we don't incarcerate them or treat them medically either. Barbaric? I don't care, I don't want to pay for someone who's never going to clean themselves up.
Yeah, I'm kind of with this.

When I was in High School they opened a student smoking lounge with similar reasoning. I think the outcome was a generation of nicotine addicts.

The thing with Alcohol is though, if you're an addict that has lost your livelihood to the drink, anything short of full-scale quitting isn't really going to help.

It would be interesting to see an experiment or even some kind of metric of dry vs wet halfway house and how many alcoholic customers end up dead (untimely), and how many are rehabilitated enough to be useful and/or self-supportive.
I don't think you can really equate nicotine addiction with heroin addiction.

With an issue as contentious as allowing illicit drug users to use with government acceptance, there have probably been positive studies just to quell some of the opposition.

It's not only to help the junkies. A lower prevalence of HIV benefits everyone.
I thought this was about alcohol?

..and while I understand nicotine addiction is not the same as alcohol, the concept of letting the addicts indulge in their addictions in a safe place is better (or worse) than forcing them to an uncontrolled location to smoke...or drink, or shoot up, or eat paint, or whatever is a similar concept.

I don't know how any facility could legally allow illegal drug use, though we allow pot smoking and that's illegal.

Edited, May 6th 2011 5:01pm by Elinda
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#24 May 06 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ah, there were needle exchanges mentioned above.

Frankly, I'd rather not deal with drunk, crazy homeless people asking me for money, and the homeless shelters probably don't want to deal with them either.
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#25 May 06 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
No no, let them have the drugs, just don't try and resuscitate them when they OD. Let the fuckers go. Their time here is done.
It ain't the bleeding hearts in that case. It's the ambulance chasers.
I have no problem sticking them with a needle and having them join their clients.
Well that's a different story entirely. The only problem is that lawyers are like cockroaches.
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#26 May 06 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
The only problem is that lawyers are like cockroaches.
I'm confident we can produce enough needles.
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#27 May 06 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
The only problem is that lawyers are like cockroaches.
I'm confident we can produce enough needles.
Raid is cheaper.
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#28 May 06 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I thought this was about alcohol?

..and while I understand nicotine addiction is not the same as alcohol, the concept of letting the addicts indulge in their addictions in a safe place is better (or worse) than forcing them to an uncontrolled location to smoke...or drink, or shoot up, or eat paint, or whatever is a similar concept.

I don't know how any facility could legally allow illegal drug use, though we allow pot smoking and that's illegal.
Other countries have safe-injection sites. I seem to recall Switzerland used to have a drug park where users could go and be provided with drugs and wander around dazed and confused. I think it shut down a while ago, though.

I don't think an illegal drug area would fly in the US. And nicotine addiction is a completely different topic, as that has minimal effects on your behavior and ability to hold a job (well, until you develop health issues). Alcohol and hard drugs both do have a large effect.
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#29 May 06 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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They exist in the US, they just don't get federal funding.
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#30 May 06 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:


I don't think an illegal drug area would fly in the US. And nicotine addiction is a completely different topic, as that has minimal effects on your behavior and ability to hold a job (well, until you develop health issues). Alcohol and hard drugs both do have a large effect.
Yes, this is a valid point.

Knowing that someone is not going to be able to support themselves while using and/or under the influence, I'd think it would reinforce the argument for more traditional treatments that attempt to end the behavior versus this proposal that attempts to control the behavior.

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#31 May 06 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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Can I get some clarification Ugly?

What I'm confused about is whether or not you want to bar the addicts who are "hopeless" from the facilities, and are we also talking about the IV drug users?

Because the whole point of these facilities is to stop the spread of HIV. I mean, yeah, they have counselors and such on site in the hopes that someone will come to them, but it's really all about the disease at this point.

Part of the problem is that, while HIV is most commonly spread through your own ill choices (sex w/o protection, sharing needles, etc.), there are innocent people who work in high risk jobs. In particular, those who work in hospitals (especially ERs). My dad dropped out of med school (with 1 semester to go) because he'd have to work in Trenton's municipal hospital's ER, per his scholarship, after graduation and this was during the height of the 70s HIV epidemic. This is after an accident meant he cut himself with a needle or scalpel that he was using on a cadaver, which led to a false-positive on an HIV test (and he had just married my mom, who already had two kids).

One of his friends from the same program actually went, and died a few years later after he got HIV from a patient that started thrashing when injected with a sedative. The doctor was stabbed with the needle. And I say stabbed, but it was just a small prick--unfortunately, the virus doesn't care how deep the wound is.

So, imo, any program that vastly reduces the spread of HIV among drug addicts is worth it. And that's without considering the rest of the ways they could spread the disease to someone else--before even considering whether or not they deserve our help. I'm ignoring those questions, because the fact that hard-working, necessary people like ER doctors have such a huge risk factor is enough for me to want these programs.

I'm just confused by what your argument actually is. Are you saying that people should always be welcome at the "needle clinics", but that they don't deserve medical treatment when they OD? Or are you saying that, once they've been determined as hopeless causes, they shouldn't even receive these goods anymore? Or were you only talking about the alcoholics from being kicked out?

[EDIT]

I thought I had heard about a US city starting one of these clinics, but I can't find anything about it so I guess not. I know there's one in... Vancouver?

Edited, May 6th 2011 11:36am by idiggory
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#32 May 06 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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This kind of reminds me of that whole scam Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu pulled in India. Mother Theresa, she's more widely known as.
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#33 May 06 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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My thinking is that once someone hits the hopeless stage, we then help them remove themselves from any connection to society. Meeting their maker seems like the most sure fire way to do this, but I'm open to other ideas so long as it doesn't cost me financially long term.
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#34 May 06 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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My thinking is that once someone hits the hopeless stage, we then help them remove themselves from any connection to society. Meeting their maker seems like the most sure fire way to do this, but I'm open to other ideas so long as it doesn't cost me financially long term.


And how does that differ from murder exactly?
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#35 May 06 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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We put animals out of their misery. I don't see why we don't for people.
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#36 May 06 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
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My thinking is that once someone hits the hopeless stage, we then help them remove themselves from any connection to society. Meeting their maker seems like the most sure fire way to do this, but I'm open to other ideas so long as it doesn't cost me financially long term.


And how does that differ from murder exactly?
Seems to me it's more like assisted suicide than actively killing someone.
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#37 May 06 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
idiggory wrote:
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My thinking is that once someone hits the hopeless stage, we then help them remove themselves from any connection to society. Meeting their maker seems like the most sure fire way to do this, but I'm open to other ideas so long as it doesn't cost me financially long term.


And how does that differ from murder exactly?
Seems to me it's more like assisted suicide than actively killing someone.
Which is controversial and probably requires consent for it to even be considered in a legal grey area.
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#38 May 06 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Seems to me it's more like assisted suicide than actively killing someone.


If you could still consider the addict a rational agent, I would agree. But the nature of addiction is generally seen as being when the desire for the fix is too overwhelmingly strong for your rational capability to oppose it.

That, to me, looks more like murder. You knew exactly what was going to happen when you gave them the massive syringe, and you knew they weren't in a position to rationally comprehend that they were killing themselves. Nor were they in a position to turn down the drugs.

If we are talking about after a stint in rehab, when they have been detoxed and gone through therapy, it might be a different story. But while they are still in the thick of addiction, I'm going with murder.
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#39 May 06 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
My thinking is that once someone hits the hopeless stage, we then help them remove themselves from any connection to society. Meeting their maker seems like the most sure fire way to do this, but I'm open to other ideas so long as it doesn't cost me financially long term.


And how does that differ from murder exactly?
I don't know, does it? I don't really care if it does or not. I thought I was quite clear earlier on that my "humanity" only goes so far. Maybe you need to reread my posts thoroughly, so as not to miss some of the finer details I discussed. Most specifically, the caveats I stated.

Edited, May 6th 2011 12:53pm by Uglysasquatch
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#40 May 06 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
We put animals out of their misery. I don't see why we don't for people.
Really?
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#41 May 06 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
We put animals out of their misery. I don't see why we don't for people.
Really?
Really. Although, I assume he's talking about assisted suicide and not from the point where I am.
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#42 May 06 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
We put animals out of their misery. I don't see why we don't for people.
Really?
Really. Although, I assume he's talking about assisted suicide and not from the point where I am.
I guess the difference I see is animals are not people. We don't bestow upon them the right to life....and other stuff.

But mostly, I just don't think the majority of addicts would agree to death as a method to 'kick-the-habit'.
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#43 May 06 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
We put animals out of their misery. I don't see why we don't for people.
Really?
Really. Although, I assume he's talking about assisted suicide and not from the point where I am.
No, I agree with you completely on this, Ugly. I don't want to spend money on people that cycle through rehab and jail.

I don't think the wet-house concept is a bad idea, but its useless for junkies.
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#44 May 06 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Well good luck with that.
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#45 May 06 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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When they help foot the bill, I'll care again what their opinion is. I'm not for just doing this as a free for all though, just to the ones who have had help and refused to take the steps they need to, to utilize that help.
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#46 May 06 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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I still don't see where that would actually be less expensive except in fantasyland.
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#47 May 06 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Sweetums wrote:
Well good luck with that.
I don't think either of us are naive enough to think what we'd like to see will ever happen. Doesn't mean we can't express our opinions or even try to help them actually happen. We can dream to you know.
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#48 May 06 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Well good luck with that.
I don't think either of us are naive enough to think what we'd like to see will ever happen. Doesn't mean we can't express our opinions or even try to help them actually happen. We can dream to you know.
I guess if you want to lobby for a hunting season on trial lawyers you'd best get crackin'
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#49 May 06 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Sweetums wrote:
I still don't see where that would actually be less expensive except in fantasyland.
Really? How can you not see that if we remove a dependent from the equation, that we'd be spending less.
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#50 May 06 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I guess the difference I see is animals are not people.
You're right as well; I've never seen a chicken go back to its coup and beat a hen to death because she didn't bring corn for him to eat.
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#51 May 06 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
I still don't see where that would actually be less expensive except in fantasyland.
Really? How can you not see that if we remove a dependent from the equation, that we'd be spending less.
Can't really get rid of lawyers. Kind of like why the death penalty is more expensive than letting criminals rot in jail for the rest of their life.
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You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
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